URSA Mini 4.6k The Original™ Magenta Cast Issue

DNG to jpg at f16 white balanced in the center

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-06-14_2235_C0208_000000_1.jpg (827.15 KiB) Viewed 13057 times

Steven, Do you have a UM4.6 camera that is free from uneven color? I'd love to see some frames if you do.

I do not. I sadly don't believe one exists. I haven't seen any images shot at F8 on a Sigma or Samyang that don't have it.

But it's still kind of unfortunate to have not one single official explanation as for why this occurs. The only thing so far is the rumor of the "not fully dissipated sensor protection" - but what to make of that, who knows. It's really sad that there are only rumors and no official explanations.

They never explained the cause of the "orbs" on the pocket camera either. There are probably some things that are easier to just address and try fix without inviting arm chair scientists to review and critique things they don't really understand? You've seen what happens here, that rumor you mention is a prime example.

"Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that the URSA Mini 4.6K EF is not currently in stock or shipping. At this moment we can not give an estimated delivery date for this product.

Kind Regards, Michelle

Orders Team EMEA
Blackmagic Design"


This mail was received by the local dealer, who has pre-orders older than 6-7 months.

It seems the camera is no longer available for the EMEA "Europe, the Middle East and Africa" market as of now.

Well this mail is both bad and good news. Bad news, because whoever is still waiting for their camera, will have to wait some more. Good news, because it seems there is a reason for the shipping to stop - probably fixing the magenta issue.

Following up on the question, “Does the magenta problem vary with ISO if T-stop and exposure are constant?”

I did tests yesterday in raw and ProRes 444 using the full sensor readout. The test was outdoors in bright light with varying cloud cover, once again pointing the camera south and north in the early afternoon. Between takes there was some difference in the sun’s strength as this wasn’t a clear blue sky. After careful examination of the clips with no correction and with Resolve’s Auto correction, I can comfortably and unequivocally state that (on my camera) I could see no difference in the shots that were all at T8 and lit more or less the same.

I shot:
ISO 200 at 360 degrees
ISO 400 at 180 degrees
ISO 800 at 90 degrees
ISO 1600 at 45 degrees

The DNGs are at this link, look for RickLang_ISO…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/53k3ns5wbyes ... BG1Aa?dl=0

Here are screenshots of the ProRes clips…

ProRes 444 ISO 200 tests for magenta

ISO 0200 2016-06-15 at 6.05.22 AM.png (1010.65 KiB) Viewed 12880 times

ProRes 444 ISO 400 tests for magenta

ISO 0400 2016-06-15 at 6.06.00 AM.png (1019.95 KiB) Viewed 12880 times

ProRes 444 ISO 800 tests for magenta

ISO 0800 2016-06-15 at 6.06.31 AM.png (1019.89 KiB) Viewed 12880 times

And the last ProRes test…

ProRes 444 ISO 1600 tests for magenta

ISO 1600 2016-06-15 at 6.07.04 AM.png (1021.87 KiB) Viewed 12880 times

I find it interesting that the DoF on your "good" non-magenta camera seems to be much shallower despite the same settings. You can clearly see that the background on that camera is much softer with the subject in focus. Or were the cameras using different lenses?

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-06-14_1146_C0091_000054.jpg

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-06-14_1150_C0021_000095.jpg

I find it interesting that the DoF on your "good" non-magenta camera seems to be much shallower despite the same settings. You can clearly see that the background on that camera is much softer with the subject in focus. Or were the cameras using different lenses?

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-06-14_1146_C0091_000054.jpg

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-06-14_1150_C0021_000095.jpg

The apparent shallower depth you see is a mistake. When I swapped lenses, I forgot to focus. If you look at the DNGs, you'll see that my assistant is soft in the one that looks shallower.

Ah, I did not look at the DNGs... just what was showing inline from your post. I'll check them out.
---
Chris

EDIT: See my updated post below.

Perhaps this is our chance to revive delivering in monochrome only.

Perhaps this is our chance to revive delivering in monochrome only.

Right! It's not a bug, it's a feature

This is indeed just the first step. We are continuing to work on improvements. This update should be helping a lot with the symmetrical magenta shading, but not so much with some of the others.

Joshua,
I was really thinking about to purchase the URSA Mini. I would have expected that you guys are abel to come up with a fix of the Mageneta Issue.

However, that has not happened with the new firmware.

Please understand that I cannot afford to purchase a camera with that price and still have to take the risk that I cannot use it - due to a well known Magenta issue.

I do not know what your company will loose in reveneus and margins due to that. But I can imagine that I am not allone with that opinion. I am really sorry to say so, because to my opinion Blackmagic has been a game changer in the market in the last years and that is great.

From what I can tell, my camera only exhibits an extremely small amount of magenta in the far corners when I push the saturation way beyond normal levels. I'm really happy with how this camera performs. Hope the issue is sorted out soon for people.

I just updated mine and I had pretty evident magenta onthe top right and a little bit on the bottom throughout the whole length of the frame. Now almost everything is gone. Difference is huge. I still have veeeery little magenta on the bottom which becomes visible after saturation 400%. Very happy.

I did a bit of research and what I found is this:

Digital sensors are dependant on the angle of light falling from the lens. And the further it goes from the center, the more angled the light is, thus less exposure is recorded to the further pixels. Some of the sensors (especially larger ones) use microlenses on each pixel to correct the angle, which I dont think is the case with bm as it is a lot more expensive. Other cameras use digital correction of such type of lens shading. Which in case of bm looks like something went wrong in the software and the correction for green pixels is much weaker than for red and blue. And as you may know, CMOS sensors have bayer pattern, which means pixels are covered with colored gel. For each 2x2 area 1 pixel is blue, 1 is red and 2 are green. Thats the reason made sensor 4.6K so you can get more real color information when shooting downscaled 4K, instead of getting the average color. I dont know what other issues exactly bm has but its clear to me that those things CAN be fixed by a firmware and they already proved it to me. That includes FPN. Hope that helps some of you guys

From what I can tell, my camera only exhibits an extremely small amount of magenta in the far corners when I push the saturation way beyond normal levels. I'm really happy with how this camera performs. Hope the issue is sorted out soon for people.

Very glad to hear you got a camera you are happy with. I'm curious to see what a raw file from the same location with the 35mm lens at F8 looks like, as that's when the magenta shows up strongest for many. If you have proof of an unaffected 4.6K Ursa Mini, it would give the rest of us some hope

Jamie, yup.

35mm or 50mm and f/8 - same wall would say a lot.

A very quick and dirty test this morning at the 35mm end of the Sigma 18-35 at f8 on my EF camera. There is a small amount of magenta in the bottom left corner which is what I referred to in my previous post. The wall, as you can see is not evenly lit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2fwtj8rahf70dg/Blackmagic%20URSA%20Mini_1_2016-06-17_0933_C0010_000026.dng?dl=0

That's indeed pretty clean except for the small spot at the left bottom part which shouldn't be there at all.
Next Update I guess.
Congrats sir.
I'd be curious to see how it was before the update though.
Got any DNGs by any chance?

That's indeed pretty clean except for the small spot at the left bottom part which shouldn't be there at all.
Next Update I guess.
Congrats sir.
I'd be curious to see how it was before the update though.
Got any DNGs by any chance?

Sadly not. I've been shooting pro res. Only shot raw for this test this morning. What I can say though is that to my eye, there was a slight reduction in the magenta after updating to 3.3. You are right though, it should not be there at all.

Yeah thanks for sharing the DNG!

This is the first camera Ive seen that had it in the lower left, and hardly at all on the right (I do see some in the upper most right corner, and a touch bleeding in a bit on the bottom of the frame.

Also interesting was how I had to crank the magenta slider UP to correct the white balance this time. Not sure how I feel about that yet, maybe nothing at all, I gotta see more before I even have an opinion, but unless that was always true of your camera, the effect of the 3.3 firmware is apparent.

If BM really can clean this up with a FW fix, then I will be extremely happy. Im still holding off buying it until I either find a rare cam that doesnt exhibit the issue with current software, or see a number of cameras all clean after new FW.

Id like to be shooting and learning how my lenses look on this camera etc. I'm pretty frustrated, and I feel I am wasting time.

Just want to take a second to say THANK YOU to all the testers and posters over the last few months, as we're trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I know it's not entirely for altruistic reasons (ie, you want to get a great working camera for yourself), but your efforts have a network-effect and really do make a contribution to the rest of us lurkers. So thanks again and hopefully we all can soon have a fantastic balanced image across all apertures.

Just want to take a second to say THANK YOU to all the testers and posters over the last few months, as we're trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I know it's not entirely for altruistic reasons (ie, you want to get a great working camera for yourself), but your efforts have a network-effect and really do make a contribution to the rest of us lurkers. So thanks again and hopefully we all can soon have a fantastic balanced image across all apertures.

+1

I would really like to know how to handle that now. How can I be sure if I purchase a unit that I do not fall into the trap with the Magenta issue? Cannot be that this is then my risk only!?

I would really like to know how to handle that now. How can I be sure if I purchase a unit that I do not fall into the trap with the Magenta issue? Cannot be that this is then my risk only!?

Buy from a reseller that has no question asked return policy for 15 days or something. Get one test it and exchange if need be. But make sure they don't have any exceptions on this camera, because almost everyone is aware of this magenta problem.


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mmmh...
i was supposed to order one soon, not so sure about it...
hope blackmagic will release a firmware that totally fix this soon, i don't want to go back to sony
i don't understand how it possible to release a camera that doesn't work on certain F stop value

I dont think there is any chance of getting one that doesnt have the issue.

You either shoot around it, or wait until the fix is working.

If you shoot 35mm to 50mm at f/8 you'll know if your camera has the issue.

If people have cameras that dont do it, Id still like to see DNGs, shot at 35mm or 50mm and f/8, a white wall, not clipped. If you have to adjust the shutter angle to keep it from clipping, then thats how to do it.

If you provide a DNG like that, please make it uncompressed RAW and not 3 or 4 to 1.

Thanks!

I would really like to know how to handle that now. How can I be sure if I purchase a unit that I do not fall into the trap with the Magenta issue? Cannot be that this is then my risk only!?

Buy from a reseller that has no question asked return policy for 15 days or something. Get one test it and exchange if need be. But make sure they don't have any exceptions on this camera, because almost everyone is aware of this magenta problem.

All good advice. Also, make sure to pay with credit card rather than cash. I made the mistake of paying with cash and now I'm three months out still waiting for the $7K I spent to be refunded.

I have yet to shoot any "real world" jobs on this camera. I just can't risk it. That is super sad and really frustrating. Yes I know I can shoot around it but I just can't put any working relationship I have with any clients in jeopardy.

This is so sad.

Units aren't shipping becuase there's a issue that could not be fixed with firmware. It's not logical to go and buy a camera with a known issue hoping that it somehow won't be present. While this camera does seem to mean a lot to many people I would suggest the fs5 with a Oddessy or Shogun which is 11 bit 4k cdng (Odyssey) or 10 bit ProRes.
There is a noise issue with the fs5 but there you go there's something wrong with every camera.
Even if this is fixed down the line it's a uphill battle to convince producers that the image quality isn't somehow compromised in a unseen way that won't show up in theaters or in the grade for broadcast. The issue hasn't been identified and neither has the fix so theres no way to assure them that the image being delivered by the sensor is ok on a particular camera.
The other point I want to make is that there are issues with every new release along with strong rental demand so as a owner operator you can recoup the cost pretty quickly by subrenting.
Another open question... how many users can point to any Ursa 4.6 rentals they've had?
This is 6 months after release. So this camera has another year and a half or so before it's replaced. I'm just not seeing it being worth waiting out the myriad of issues that have been raised on this very forum for a camera that will be less relevant.

My camera has been rented out with three other cameras that are in Nashville basically since we all received them. Rolling stone has been doing a ton of jobs on them. I recently directed a Mapco/hype energy promo with mine in the brief period it was back in my hands. The camera has been rock solid for me.


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www.ryanhamblin.com
www.brainstem.tv

My camera has been rented out with three other cameras that are in Nashville basically since we all received them. Rolling stone has been doing a ton of jobs on them. I recently directed a Mapco/hype energy promo with mine in the brief period it was back in my hands. The camera has been rock solid for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://www.ryanhamblin.com
http://www.brainstem.tv

Glad to hear that... does this means that your camera is magenta issues free?!
Would you mind sharing some DNGs?

I tend to agree that as long as the Magenta issue is not fixed at all, I
would take a risk if I purchase the camera. To return the unit witin 14days sounds great, but even with credit card it might be still an issue to get a refund really. And I have the work to find out if there is an issue at all. And there seems to be still the questionmark what is wrong with the camera - because if it could be fixed with an firmware why was it not fixed?

An FS5 with raw upgrade and an Shogun or Q7+ is an alternative, I am aware of that since the raw upgrade for the FS5 was announced at the NAB.

I tend to agree that as long as the Magenta issue is not fixed at all, I
would take a risk if I purchase the camera. To return the unit witin 14days sounds great, but even with credit card it might be still an issue to get a refund really. And I have the work to find out if there is an issue at all. And there seems to be still the questionmark what is wrong with the camera - because if it could be fixed with an firmware why was it not fixed?

An FS5 with raw upgrade and an Shogun or Q7+ is an alternative, I am aware of that since the raw upgrade for the FS5 was announced at the NAB.

...It is possible to get an image out of FS5 that looks very close to the UM 4.6K Image. The FS5 Sensor is totally flawless. No color shift or cast at all...

You may have to wait a bit for a Sony FS5 too, due to the earthquakes, delays can reach 1.5-2 months.

Yes I know that. But to wait can also make sense. There could be a solution for the URSA mini or maybe more information about other cameras like the GH5 - and the FS5 is at the end of the day a 8bit camera with UHD 30p ONLY - with an extended lifecycle by the raw upgrade.

My camera has been rented out with three other cameras that are in Nashville basically since we all received them. Rolling stone has been doing a ton of jobs on them. I recently directed a Mapco/hype energy promo with mine in the brief period it was back in my hands. The camera has been rock solid for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://www.ryanhamblin.com
http://www.brainstem.tv

Glad to hear that... does this means that your camera is magenta issues free?!
Would you mind sharing some DNGs?

I'll try and get some dngs up soon


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www.ryanhamblin.com
www.brainstem.tv

That would be very nice indeed.
Thanks


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Yes I know that. But to wait can also make sense. There could be a solution for the URSA mini or maybe more information about other cameras like the GH5 - and the FS5 is at the end of the day a 8bit camera with UHD 30p ONLY - with an extended lifecycle by the raw upgrade.

Personally I wouldn't want to give up 12bit.

We all understand the hesitation and waiting can be prudent if you have other shooting options, but I'd like to remind folks that the magenta problem is a serious concern, but the latest 3.3 firmware helps and for some may eliminate some of the issues. 4.0 firmware is arriving very soon and may bring further improvements.

For many, when you are shooting real footage and not white walls, test charts, without a lens, or simply shooting T5.6 or better, the problem doesn't appear.


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Well even with a FS5 and Sony raw and a Shogun/Q7+ you have 12bit cdng - but the internal UHD is limited to UHD 8bit 30p.

Just add money... Good there are alternatives of course.


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Anymore improvement examples since FW 3.3 out there?

Anymore improvement examples since FW 3.3 out there?

Besides small improvements, I see a few topics popping up about totally fu**ed up sound recording since the update.

Yeah, I read that too.
Weird.


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Ok so here are my findings with the new 3.3 Update. For me, the biggest place I would see magenta in the corners and what not would be on asphalt. So I took some shots outside my office right before I did the update to show the difference.

Shot in UHD Prores LT, Canon 24-105mm (at 24mm), F22, ISO 200, WB 5600k, Shutter 180.

So Here is the comparison between the 2

Before 3.3 Update.jpg (741.81 KiB) Viewed 10650 times

After 3.3 Update 4k.jpg (741.24 KiB) Viewed 10650 times

Both Images were graded only with the BlackMagic LUT Ver 3 in DaVinci Resolve
So from what I can tell, there is a lot of magenta that has been removed from the entire image in the new 3.3 update. I think it looks a lot better.

Here is a version of the images where lowered the Lift and raised the gain to really bring out the magenta in the corners and what not.

Before vs After dark.jpg (968.61 KiB) Viewed 10650 times

I think here you can really see a difference in how much magenta is removed by the update. I think you do still have some magenta going on the the 3.3 version, but it looks much better than before, and I'm pretty pleased.

That's great to see, thank you for sharing it!

Huge improvement indeed ! Makes me very confident for the next update. Thanks !

"Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that the URSA Mini 4.6K EF is not currently in stock or shipping. At this moment we can not give an estimated delivery date for this product.

Kind Regards, Michelle

Orders Team EMEA
Blackmagic Design"


This mail was received by the local dealer, who has pre-orders older than 6-7 months.

It seems the camera is no longer available for the EMEA "Europe, the Middle East and Africa" market as of now.

Well this mail is both bad and good news. Bad news, because whoever is still waiting for their camera, will have to wait some more. Good news, because it seems there is a reason for the shipping to stop - probably fixing the magenta issue.

I can confirm this... My dealer in Germany is NOT able to get ANY new Ursa Mini 4.6k. They not shipping.

Black Magic Support, Kristian Lamm in particular went totally silent and seized responding to ANY email correspondence.

It appears that this problem is quite profound. I can understand that BMD stopped shipping the camera as they would have to deem just about any available lens on the planet as incompatible above or below a certain f.stop.

One might wonder whether all those lenses are in fact incompatible or perhaps the camera is just poorly designed !

"Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that the URSA Mini 4.6K EF is not currently in stock or shipping. At this moment we can not give an estimated delivery date for this product.

Kind Regards, Michelle

Orders Team EMEA
Blackmagic Design"


This mail was received by the local dealer, who has pre-orders older than 6-7 months.

It seems the camera is no longer available for the EMEA "Europe, the Middle East and Africa" market as of now.

Well this mail is both bad and good news. Bad news, because whoever is still waiting for their camera, will have to wait some more. Good news, because it seems there is a reason for the shipping to stop - probably fixing the magenta issue.

I can confirm this... My dealer in Germany is NOT able to get ANY new Ursa Mini 4.6k. They not shipping.

Black Magic Support, Kristian Lamm in particular went totally silent and seized responding to ANY email correspondence.

It appears that this problem is quite profound. I can understand that BMD stopped shipping the camera as they would have to deem just about any available lens on the planet as incompatible above or below a certain f.stop.

One might wonder whether all those lenses are in fact incompatible or perhaps the camera is just poorly designed !

Kind of my thoughts as well.

My camera went to RMA. Once the problem confirmed and acknowledged, I got promised a new camera which was supposed to be shipped to BMD UK in "3 to 5" days.
It's been a month and a half.

I'm in heaven.


p.s. I'd love to get an official explanation from BMD... I'm still willing to wait but it's all so uncertain.

This is from my dealer in New Zealand:
"We have just had an update from our supplier And unfortunately, Blackmagic haven't started shipping the Blackmagic URSA MINI 4.6k Due to parts shortage. We have been told there is no firm ETA... Blackmagic say "soon".

Looks like the issue is not 100% software after all ^^