URSA Mini 4.6k The Original™ Magenta Cast Issue

I tend to think this as well.
I'd say, and this is pretty much pure speculation, that the problem can't be purely FW.
Now the solution; well, BMD thinks can be via FW.
All heresay of course as we all know s....t


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Oh, btw... I just got an email from BMD UK confirming there's a shipment coming and that I might be getting a camera soonish.... Good news everyone? Let's hope


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Here we have the summer solstice sun testing for magenta and black sun at T8 on the SLR Magic APO 50mm, ProRes 444 Film HD window with full sensor readout. Only colour correction in Resolve Studio 12.5 is 100% saturation:

Magenta and Black Sun test T8 100% Saturation

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.14.07 AM.png (919.35 KiB) Viewed 13466 times

Magenta and Black Sun test T8 100% Saturation

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.20.10 AM.png (932.47 KiB) Viewed 13466 times

Oh, btw... I just got an email from BMD UK confirming there's a shipment coming and that I might be getting a camera soonish.... Good news everyone? Let's hope


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Fingers crossed No UM46k here in Belgium as well. Checked in France and Germany, no EF in stock, only found one PL but I guess it's from a previous shipment.

Would love to have one this summer :'(

Oh, btw... I just got an email from BMD UK confirming there's a shipment coming and that I might be getting a camera soonish.... Good news everyone? Let's hope


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Fingers crossed No UM46k here in Belgium as well. Checked in France and Germany, no EF in stock, only found one PL but I guess it's from a previous shipment.

Would love to have one this summer :'(

Check photocineshop.com, I believe they've got quite a few en stock.
I got mine from them.

Thank you but according to their website, they only have 4k's left :/

Thank you but according to their website, they only have 4k's left :/

Oh, didn't see that.

Will you be getting the camera after all?
I thought you were hesitant.

Here we have the summer solstice sun testing for magenta and black sun at T8 on the SLR Magic APO 50mm, ProRes 444 Film HD window with full sensor readout. Only colour correction in Resolve Studio 12.5 is 100% saturation:

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.14.07 AM.png

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.20.10 AM.png

That all looks just fine.

Thanks, Jason. My other tests with actual subjects other than the sky are looking good now too. Great relief and I bet things only get better over the summer. We must be very close to firmware 4.0!


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Here we have the summer solstice sun testing for magenta and black sun at T8 on the SLR Magic APO 50mm, ProRes 444 Film HD window with full sensor readout. Only colour correction in Resolve Studio 12.5 is 100% saturation:

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.14.07 AM.png

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.20.10 AM.png

That all looks just fine.

I can clearly see magenta in top left corner and bottom right corner on my phone screen!

There's a hint that shows up more in these small images actually. When I play the original on the 27" iMac, looks quite good, interestingly.


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I think these are just rendering artifacts, and a little fringing on the trees in the one frame. Looks very good, and no black hole! Good to,go for the wedding Rick!
Cheers
Denny

Thanks, Denny. Still have to finalize what I'm doing for sound. Must know by tomorrow to give me time to order equipment if needed.


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Hi Rick,

I'm curious to know what your plans are for sound equipment?

Mark, the easiest solution is using the sound system provided by someone who is bringing it to support the dance and singing performances after the dinner. Except she has been away and hasn't told me if her mixer has an audio out that I can use either for a recorder I could place beside her sound system or if needed via cable to record in the Mini via XLR. If I can't reach her by tomorrow, I may need to supply my own mic and recorders (which would be my own Canon HV20 with good shotgun mic) or go with the Sennheiser AVX wireless system to record via the Mini XLR which I would need to order this week!

If you would like to propose some alternatives, I'm all ears! You wouldn't happen to be visiting Victoria on July 10th, would you? I do have one eager but inexperienced assistant to man the Mini camera while I'm in the wedding party as father of the bride.

Mark, the easiest solution is using the sound system provided by someone who is bringing it to support the dance and singing performances after the dinner. Except she has been away and hasn't told me if her mixer has an audio out that I can use either for a recorder I could place beside her sound system or if needed via cable to record in the Mini via XLR. If I can't reach her by tomorrow, I may need to supply my own mic and recorders (which would be my own Canon HV20 with good shotgun mic) or go with the Sennheiser AVX wireless system to record via the Mini XLR which I would need to order this week!

If you would like to propose some alternatives, I'm all ears! You wouldn't happen to be visiting Victoria on July 10th, would you? I do have one eager but inexperienced assistant to man the Mini camera while I'm in the wedding party as father of the bride.

Hi Rick,

If she is providing a mixer/soundboard then it should have an audio out (either xlr or 2 rca). If that doesn't work, you can always put a shotgun mic connected to a recorder onto a mic stand and then place it near a speaker or near a podium/area where people will be talking. Probably actually a good idea to do both.

If people are going to use a mic for the speeches and ceremony, I wouldn't try and put wireless mics on them. I think you'll find this will take too much time, but I am not a wedding video expert so I may be wrong.

Ha, there is a chance I could be in Victoria, but I have a lot going on at the moment so I can't commit to anything right now. I will let you know if I can help out. It would be great to meet you.

FYI - my Ursa Mini has been performing well. No magenta issues and no other real issues to speak of. I do find though I still need to use a good external preamp if I am recording audio into the camera.

Thanks for the sage advice, Mark. If you need a place to stay when you're in Victoria, I have room to put you up here. It would be great to meet you and my assistant just happens to have a helicopter at his disposal in a manner of speaking which might lead to an interesting and cinematic excursion. Fill you in if you can come for that weekend.

Apologies for derailing this magenta thread. So glad your camera is performing well for you. I'm happy with mine, but know it's going to be better soon. Really looking forward to 4.0 and getting an APO 25mm PL lens like yesterday!


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I did a test shoot on a rented Ursa Mini the other day with the latest firmware 3.3 and the images turned out perfectly. Zero magenta in the sky that I could see. This shot was at F8 on a Canon 17-55mm EF-S lens with the zoom at about 35mm.

UM46_F8_35mm.jpg (213.69 KiB) Viewed 13211 times

Here's a link to the DNG to view and test in Resolve:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpcVGQ3YmhNUDlSdG8

LensRentals.com, the source for this 4.6K, allows renters to purchase the gear minus the rental fee. After running the footage from the shoot through Resolve I went ahead and bought the camera from them. Not the greatest deal as I paid full price for a not 100% new camera, but well worth it considering it's a keeper.

It is still possible to make some magenta vignetting appear if I shoot a white wall and push the contrast, but I had to ask myself: How often do I shoot flat white walls and need to push contrast? Answer: Pretty much never in my case. I see no magenta vingetting in the sky in any of the shots from the test shoot and that gives me confidence that I likely won't see the issue in any real world footage. I'm so glad to be able to move on and just enjoy shooting with a working 4.6K. Finally!

I also want to add that I met Joshua Helling who was representing BMD at the SF Cutters meeting this evening. Chatting with him it is clear that BMD is fully committed to making the Ursa Mini 4.6K a great camera and to supporting their users.
Great to meet you Joshua!

Here we have the summer solstice sun testing for magenta and black sun at T8 on the SLR Magic APO 50mm, ProRes 444 Film HD window with full sensor readout. Only colour correction in Resolve Studio 12.5 is 100% saturation:

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.14.07 AM.png

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.20.10 AM.png

That all looks just fine.

Looks quite pink to me....

Here we have the summer solstice sun testing for magenta and black sun at T8 on the SLR Magic APO 50mm, ProRes 444 Film HD window with full sensor readout. Only colour correction in Resolve Studio 12.5 is 100% saturation:

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.14.07 AM.png

Sun Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.20.10 AM.png

That all looks just fine.

Looks quite pink to me....

Yep, agreed.


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Oh, btw... I just got an email from BMD UK confirming there's a shipment coming and that I might be getting a camera soonish.... Good news everyone? Let's hope


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Hey! Any chance you can share the email?

Also I noticed this will be your 2nd unit?

I did a test shoot on a rented Ursa Mini the other day with the latest firmware 3.3 and the images turned out perfectly. Zero magenta in the sky that I could see. This shot was at F8 on a Canon 17-55mm EF-S lens with the zoom at about 35mm.

UM46_F8_35mm.jpg

Here's a link to the DNG to view and test in Resolve:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpcVGQ3YmhNUDlSdG8

LensRentals.com, the source for this 4.6K, allows renters to purchase the gear minus the rental fee. After running the footage from the shoot through Resolve I went ahead and bought the camera from them. Not the greatest deal as I paid full price for a not 100% new camera, but well worth it considering it's a keeper.

It is still possible to make some magenta vignetting appear if I shoot a white wall and push the contrast, but I had to ask myself: How often do I shoot flat white walls and need to push contrast? Answer: Pretty much never in my case. I see no magenta vingetting in the sky in any of the shots from the test shoot and that gives me confidence that I likely won't see the issue in any real world footage. I'm so glad to be able to move on and just enjoy shooting with a working 4.6K. Finally!

I also want to add that I met Joshua Helling who was representing BMD at the SF Cutters meeting this evening. Chatting with him it is clear that BMD is fully committed to making the Ursa Mini 4.6K a great camera and to supporting their users.
Great to meet you Joshua!

Great news Jamie! Performance wins over newness any day. Enjoy your new camera!

Congratulations, Jamie! I suspect our sensors are close to the same in their behaviour. You have expressed my sentiments about the shortcomings. It’s liberating to get on with shooting things that matter to you. I took a gamble picking up the URSA Mini prior to NAB 2016 and I don’t regret it. Perfect camera would have been nice, but there are no perfect cameras. No perfect lenses either I suppose. By ‘perfect’ I mean something I can also afford. This is it, on with the show!

Congratulations, Jamie! I suspect our sensors are close to the same in their behaviour. You have expressed my sentiments about the shortcomings. It’s liberating to get on with shooting things that matter to you. I took a gamble picking up the URSA Mini prior to NAB 2016 and I don’t regret it. Perfect camera would have been nice, but there are no perfect cameras. No perfect lenses either I suppose. By ‘perfect’ I mean something I can also afford. This is it, on with the show!

Very true. Even the Raven is having OLPF orb issues and random line errors. The line errors I'm sure are fixable. The orbs have been around a while on their OLPF and its recommended to not shoot past an 8...

The point being there are a lot of working 4.6ks out there and it seems firmware is going to continue to make them even better. I've had them side by side with arri a couple times and it really is a neck and neck sort of thing.


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Thank you but according to their website, they only have 4k's left :/

Oh, didn't see that.

Will you be getting the camera after all?
I thought you were hesitant.

I really was but seeing the progress on that magenta thing, I'm getting confident again

And issues or not, honestly I love what I'm seeing out of the camera way too much !
I could buy something else, thought about an FS5, but honestly I know I wouldn't be happy shooting with it.

finally made it back to the forum it's been quite some time. Still waiting for my replacement unfortunately. Just wanted to share some bad news with my fellow LA friends. There are several agencies and production companies that have a "No Blackmagic" policy. It has affected me 3 times in the last month and a half. I chose the 4.6k but was denied every time, even given a bigger budget to rent a different camera. After speaking with several individuals I was told it's a growing trend in the market. It sucks because now I'm left with the decision to return my 4.6 and pay more money for something else (abandoning most of the accessories), or keep it and hope things change. Thoughts?

There are several agencies and production companies that have a "No Blackmagic" policy.

Who are the agencies and companies? I've never heard this from any company direct. And no one post names. Always seems fishy to me. Most I deal with trust the people they hire to know best.

There are several agencies and production companies that have a "No Blackmagic" policy.

Who are the agencies and companies? I've never heard this from any company direct. And no one post names. Always seems fishy to me. Most I deal with trust the people they hire to know best.

Yeah, so he's lying... he probably works for RED or no wait! for ARRI...

Hi all,
We're re-doing our lens off test on our Ursa 4.6k just in case we did it wrong originally. We are shooting a white flat with only one bulb on in the kino flo. We bought it into resolve and depending on what we do we are get different results. We're no colourists, so we don't know EXACTLY what we are doing. We assumed reducing the luma (brightness) is all we needed to do, which gave us NO magenta cast but vignetting around the edges, however we just tested again, but this time ganged the YRGB and the results were vastly different.

Any advice? We've uploaded a DNG if anyone would like to take a look.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kj0idh7rzkqk ... 0.dng?dl=0

Thanks in advance
Neil

Hi all,
We're re-doing our lens off test on our Ursa 4.6k just in case we did it wrong originally. We are shooting a white flat with only one bulb on in the kino flo. We bought it into resolve and depending on what we do we are get different results. We're no colourists, so we don't know EXACTLY what we are doing. We assumed reducing the luma (brightness) is all we needed to do, which gave us NO magenta cast but vignetting around the edges, however we just tested again, but this time ganged the YRGB and the results were vastly different.

Any advice? We've uploaded a DNG if anyone would like to take a look.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kj0idh7rzkqk ... 0.dng?dl=0

Thanks in advance
Neil

The White Wall test is really limited to showing a sensor with a very heavy un-even cast. It's only one test and probably the least useful based on the current understanding of the issue.

Better to shoot with a lens on. Around 35mm-50mm at f8 or higher. Then shoot some tarmac or a blue sky. This should shot any uneven magenta cast and any magenta corners.

Hi all,
We're re-doing our lens off test on our Ursa 4.6k just in case we did it wrong originally. We are shooting a white flat with only one bulb on in the kino flo. We bought it into resolve and depending on what we do we are get different results. We're no colourists, so we don't know EXACTLY what we are doing. We assumed reducing the luma (brightness) is all we needed to do, which gave us NO magenta cast but vignetting around the edges, however we just tested again, but this time ganged the YRGB and the results were vastly different.

Any advice? We've uploaded a DNG if anyone would like to take a look.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kj0idh7rzkqk ... 0.dng?dl=0

Thanks in advance
Neil

The White Wall test is really limited to showing a sensor with a very heavy un-even cast. It's only one test and probably the least useful based on the current understanding of the issue.

Better to shoot with a lens on. Around 35mm-50mm at f8 or higher. Then shoot some tarmac or a blue sky. This should shot any uneven magenta cast and any magenta corners.

Thanks for the response. As requested. F16 at 35mm. As blue a sky as I could find in Slough I'm afraid!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpffj81ca7p85 ... 0.dng?dl=0

Thanks for the response. As requested. F16 at 35mm. As blue a sky as I could find in Slough I'm afraid!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpffj81ca7p85 ... 0.dng?dl=0

Looks reasonable. I can make it show magenta if I crank the saturation beyond the point anyone would ever do in the real works. Under normal exposure and balance it looks fine.

What firmware version are you running?

Thanks for the response. As requested. F16 at 35mm. As blue a sky as I could find in Slough I'm afraid!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpffj81ca7p85 ... 0.dng?dl=0

Looks reasonable. I can make it show magenta if I crank the saturation beyond the point anyone would ever do in the real works. Under normal exposure and balance it looks fine.

What firmware version are you running?

Hi thanks for checking!

I'm running firmware 3.3

There are several agencies and production companies that have a "No Blackmagic" policy. It has affected me 3 times in the last month and a half.

The only time I've ever seen anything like this is on the Craigslist crew gigs section.

If there are agencies or production companies banning Blackmagic, that will likely change, once word begins to circulate on how beautiful the images are coming from the 4.6K. Maybe even more importantly, what you can do with these images in post.

As to reliability... I took my 4.6K out last weekend. It was especially hot here in LA. I don't have a rig bag yet for the camera so was using an old sport bag to carry it around. The bag is black. At one point I pulled the camera out of the bag and it was almost too hot to touch. I was extremely worried that the camera would be unusable for awhile given how hot it was. Fired it up and a great image appeared before me in the viewfinder and I was able to record right away. A few days later, I mentioned that to a guy I met who builds camera cases for a living. He said "try doing that with a RED" and laughed. He knew Blackmagic and knew how good their products can be in spite of some of their fumbling.

Thanks for the response. As requested. F16 at 35mm. As blue a sky as I could find in Slough I'm afraid!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpffj81ca7p85 ... 0.dng?dl=0

Looks reasonable. I can make it show magenta if I crank the saturation beyond the point anyone would ever do in the real works. Under normal exposure and balance it looks fine.

What firmware version are you running?

And just to confirm we're okay with the magenta issue? Good to go?

I have seen a number of DNGs from various cameras. FW 3.3 does help with the magenta shading, but it doesnt fix it. Maybe 50%.

THe fact is that if you shoot f/2.8 with this camera youre not going to see any problems at all. If you shoot at f/5.6 and between 24mm and 85mm you might see some magenta edges, and if you shoot f/8 and those focal lengths you are certainly going to see some coloration.

It's not fixed, even Blackmagic says that. But they have certainly addressed it, and they themselves have said that this isnt the final fix theyre gonna do.

So yes, the camera can make some great images, and there is every reason to believe that Blackmagic will continue to work on the problem.

Whether they will ever fully fix it I cant say. They are trying tho, and you can certainly shoot great footage around these settings, but if you need or want them, it's still an issue, not fully fixed yet.

also, you dont need to crank the saturation at all on that sky picture posted just above to see the magenta corners. It is clearly there if you white balance.

also, you dont need to crank the saturation at all on that sky picture posted just above to see the magenta corners. It is clearly there if you white balance.

So you're saying its there? Why would you white balance it? It's daylight set in cam... It clearly isn't there for me. Can you explain what you changed in resolve to get it to show magenta please?

See if you can see this, I included all the settings. The inner clouds are slightly green, while the edges are clearly magenta?

magentasky.jpg (490.72 KiB) Viewed 12301 times

See if you can see this, I included all the settings. The inner clouds are slightly green, while the edges are clearly magenta?

magentasky.jpg

Yes okay but why have you walked up the colour temp to 6600 and increased tint by +8? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why?

I also have to disagree that the white wall or grey card test is worse than a pavement or blue sky test.

I think the best way to check for coloration is with a self similar neutral source. Thats what grey cards are for I think.

point your cam at a white wall and shoot 50mm and f/8 and youll know right away what your sensor is doing.

Neil I did to to white balance the clouds. Otherwise everything was too blue, which you could see by the histogram.

This is why some people want to say we should shoot blue skies, because it hides the problem. This is why shooting a neutral source will reveal color discrepancies better, you can absolutely white balance a grey or white source (if its not clipped).

And as for the tint, I set it so the middle clouds were actually slightly green, while the outsides were still very magenta?

But even if I balance yours at 5600K and tint = 0, the corners are still reading 8% saturation purple or more. Its just harder to see with the sky because of all the blue.

Adam said:

"The White Wall test is really limited to showing a sensor with a very heavy un-even cast. It's only one test and probably the least useful based on the current understanding of the issue.

Better to shoot with a lens on. Around 35mm-50mm at f8 or higher. Then shoot some tarmac or a blue sky. This should shot any uneven magenta cast and any magenta corners."

ANd he's right, because hes talking about the white wall NO LENS test. Im simply suggesting you shoot a white wall or grey card WITH a lens at 50mm and f/8, so Im not sure Adam and I are disagreeing?

Adam said:

"The White Wall test is really limited to showing a sensor with a very heavy un-even cast. It's only one test and probably the least useful based on the current understanding of the issue.

Better to shoot with a lens on. Around 35mm-50mm at f8 or higher. Then shoot some tarmac or a blue sky. This should shot any uneven magenta cast and any magenta corners."

ANd he's right, because hes talking about the white wall NO LENS test. Im simply suggesting you shoot a white wall or grey card WITH a lens at 50mm and f/8, so Im not sure Adam and I are disagreeing?

Thanks for the quick response. Could you check out my lens off test I posted above too? Thanks

Like Adam, I dont put any weight into the lens off test, because the magenta corners issue is about the angle of the light leaving the lens and how it hits the edges of the sensor, thats why you wont see the issue at all at f/1.4 on any cam, because the light is coming onto the sensor in a straighter line, and the lens off light will be going straighter still.

For me, the real test is a white or grey source as 35mm to 50mm and f/8 - what you see under those conditions will be the worst case scenario.

Like Adam, I dont put any weight into the lens off test, because the magenta corners issue is about the angle of the light leaving the lens and how it hits the edges of the sensor, thats why you wont see the issue at all at f/1.4 on any cam, because the light is coming onto the sensor in a straighter line, and the lens off light will be going straighter still.

For me, the real test is a white or grey source as 35mm to 50mm and f/8 - what you see under those conditions will be the worst case scenario.

Thanks again. Would you say it was an even magenta cast?

Thanks for the response. As requested. F16 at 35mm. As blue a sky as I could find in Slough I'm afraid!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpffj81ca7p85 ... 0.dng?dl=0

Looks reasonable. I can make it show magenta if I crank the saturation beyond the point anyone would ever do in the real works. Under normal exposure and balance it looks fine.

What firmware version are you running?

And just to confirm we're okay with the magenta issue? Good to go?

It's not perfect but it's usable and will probably only get better with the next update from BM.

It's not perfect but it's usable and will probably only get better with the next update from BM.

I agree, and your camera is certainly typical, it isn't a particularly affected one or anything.

It's not perfect but it's usable and will probably only get better with the next update from BM.

I agree, and your camera is certainly typical, it isn't a particularly affected one or anything.

Great. I think? So most people are in the same boat then? It's not a "bad camera" as Ursa 4.6k generally go basically? Is that right? Would I get better if I returned again? Kinda fed up with it all now to be honest.

No I don't think you will get a better one if you return it. I think that if you shoot at f/5.6 and below you probably wont see the magenta ever again.

I also think that the FW3.3 made a good bit of difference and I am looking forward to Blackmagic's next installment fixing this.