Still Photography support for Black Magic Cameras

DSLR functionality like GH4 which can switch between video and still photography instantly. Why does BlackMagic overlook this feature on all of its cameras. We have an URSA and we can record short bursts or in RAW but they are still asking for a new camera like a DSLR which can do both still and video photography. This seems like a simple feature that Black Magic could add to their lineup through firmware update. SO WHY DON'T YOU BLACK MAGIC? This is not totally a consumer feature I am guessing that is why they haven't but really this one feature would satisfy a lot of the pro sumer marketplace who want something run and gun and which can do both stills and video. So why doesn't BlackMagic go after it with a new firmware update. I know they are just about to release 4.0 Operating system for URSA so please do something with a still photography feature will you?

Because they make cinema and studio broadcast cameras, not still cameras with a video feature thrown in. If you really want a still photo, use time lapse with raw and set the rate at which you want to take your still photo and then end the time lapse when you've shot a few frames.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The biggest issue is, a DSLR still camera has a large high pixel count sensor designed for "still photography with a high speed shutter, and gives a high res single frames that can yield a nice sharp prints in large sizes. A "vide/Cine" camera uses a smaller, less dense pixel count sensor designed for video, with a slower shutter, and yields files designed for processing in a program like Resolve to create a video or film for display on a screen, where you do not see the lack of resolution and subject motion is desired. A DSLR uses techniques like "line skipping" to dump down their sensors for video capiture at a highly compressed rate for codecs like AVCHD to create video images.

So, while you can reduce a good still camera sensor image to make a video, you can not easily upgrade the resolution of a video camera to make a nice still image -- the digital info is not there. So,you,are,never going to get the same quality still image out of a camera like the Pocket camera or Ursa Mini to match a full frame DSLR, just is not possible at this point, but the "line is quickly blurring", so who knows what might happen down the road.

BM cameras have video processors that are designed to do what DSLRs can not do, record uncompress or slightly compressed video files as DNG raw, or processed ProRes and DNxHD files that are lightly compressed for professional video/Cine applications, which have different requirements from still photography used in DSLRs.

Technically, while it is possible to make a video camera shoot still frames, saved as raw or JPEGs, most cameras that do this like the AF100, save the file to a separate card than the one being used for video, so the video recording media is not fragmented with still images caught on it. I have only used this feature once with the AG100, to get some stills in video resolution of some art work to splice into the video. Did not work very well as at the slow shutter speed of the camera, hard to get sharp pics -- another issue doing this. Cinema type video cameras like BM use slower shutter speeds, either in rolling or global shutter mode. DSLRs use mechanical shutters, like a film camera.

A better idea, is to have the BM cameras able to do "single frame" capiture as used for animation. Then you could get some nice "video" type single exposures for sequencing later. But you are still going to be limited with the native camera resolution and slower shutter speeds, which add image motion issues for getting good sharp stills.

The closest camera that came close to doing both well, was the Nikon V1/3 series. The cameras are 1-inc video type sensors, that can take a a still single frame, up to 4K raw resolution raw images at a 60-fps rate for about 1.5 seconds, recorded to a buffer then written to a SD card. You could take the frames, then sequence them in a editor for a short slow mo video. The Nikon V1 was a 10MP camera on what amounts to a S16 size sensor, so no DSLR line skipping or resolution reducing needed. It did decent stills, but only printed well up to 8x10, and sometimes 11x14. The difference with this camera, is it had a "high speed" shutter for still work that gave you the short exposure times needed for sharp stills (up to 1/10,000 of a Sec.).

So there is more going in here, than just capituring quick stills, still photography and video photography Have very different camera requirements and equipment design specifications. So mixing the two is like mixing oil and water, very difficult. That is why movie studios had stil, photographers and still cameras for shooting "stills" and Cine camera for shooting motion pictures.
Cheers

So there is more going in here, than just capituring quick stills, still photography and video photography Have very different camera requirements and equipment design specifications. So mixing the two is like mixing oil and water, very difficult. That is why movie studios had stil, photographers and still cameras for shooting "stills" and Cine camera for shooting motion pictures.
Cheers

Very well put Denny and Rick. I'm oft frustrated by clients who want still and motion pictures form the same job but one camera. In addition to the technical aspects of the cameras and sensors you mentioned, there's the logistical and ergonomic issues of rigging a motion picture camera for what it's designed to do then rigging it it for stills which often includes vertical portrait images. Lighting is also a different beast as well.

Good points Denny and Dave. But I think for those who still want to shoot the occasional still photo on the camera, it's feasible using time lapse. Especially if the still image is for anything on the web versus a movie poster or fine art photo. You can try to set your shutter angle to the smallest setting and your project frame rate to the fastest setting for the resolution desired. Might stop most action since a 11.25 degree shutter angle on a 60 fps project frame rate for open gate raw 4608x2592 is 1/1920 second exposure, no? Moving to a 2K raw window and the exposure is almost 1/4000 second! So if the resolution suits your purpose such as a photo for your web blog, it's feasible in my mind. I haven't tried this and the proper exposure would require a lot of light, but the time lapse does have some decent options to get the 'perfect' shot in a brief sequence much as a DSLR can do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You can use your BM camera right now already to do this by shooting at higher shutter angles to up the shutter speed. You get a nice RAW stills camera that shoots at very high continuous frame rates.

The biggest reason NOT to do this is that you have to choose a shutter speed that favours one or the other.

You can't have both.

180 deg shutter which is what we're used to for motion imaging means a shutter speed that's usually too slow for good stills because of motion blur frame to frame.

If you choose a high shutter speed for stills then you make really weird looking videos that have no motion blur frame to frame.

You can't do both WELL at the same time.

How in your mind would this feature work ?

jb

I think Rick is saying you could do this to get some frames for a "still photo" like you mentioned John, but you are right, you can not do both at the same time -- it's either one or the other.

And, by the time you set all this up, you could have taken a dozen still,shots with that Nikon V1, and end up with a similar resolution 4K raw or ready to go JPEG files. Job managed
Cheers

You can use your BM camera right now already to do this by shooting at higher shutter angles to up the shutter speed. You get a nice RAW stills camera that shoots at very high continuous frame rates.

The biggest reason NOT to do this is that you have to choose a shutter speed that favours one or the other.

You can't have both.

180 deg shutter which is what we're used to for motion imaging means a shutter speed that's usually too slow for good stills because of motion blur frame to frame.

If you choose a high shutter speed for stills then you make really weird looking videos that have no motion blur frame to frame.

You can't do both WELL at the same time.

How in your mind would this feature work ?

jb

I'm with you 100% John. You have to choose one or the other or do both poorly. In the corporate work that I primarily do, it's hard to convey that to a client at times. There is certainly plenty of resolution for hi res glossy 8x10 prints but the workflow and, more importantly, the frames of mind for shooting motion pictures and stills are entirely different. I personally have a hard time switching between the two. I'm working with a client now that is a great client and a repeat customer but they want to pull stills from the motion footage and I've had to tell them that I can only concentrate on one or the other and motion is my forte and what I do for a living. I have pulled some nice stills from the jobs recently but I've let them know, and anyone else who asks, that to get the calibre of stills that match the calibre of motion pictures I do, they need to hire a photographer in addition to a cinematographer.

DCI 4K is more than enough resolution and most of my still photos are not moving targets. Still the best camera is the one that you have on hand rather than having an unloaded gun in a draw between a DSLR.

DSLR's make compromises to produce video. As far as shutter rate and ISO sensitivity are concerned I still think most users would appreciate the versatility more than focusing on compromise or shortcomings.

I was thinking it would be a single button which changed your shutter, frame rate and ISO sensitivity. Once the Global and rolling shutter are fixed on 4.6k there should also be more ISO sensitivity in rolling shutter mode as most DSLR's are. Or maybe a whole new turret design could be the Ninja voodoo magic that is needed to do both. I would like to switch between rolling and global shutter as well as switch between video and photo settings easily. It is possible with current sensor tech but may be even better in future sensors with higher ISO sensitivity & higher frame rates. Why not release 1.0 photo support for Black Magic cameras?

Thank You,

Denny's right; I'm just saying if you want to stop motion and use the cinema camera as a still camera, you can do it given you have enough light to also get a good exposure. I suggested using the time lapse feature to make a few exposures rather than shooting a video. Perhaps my reference to 60 fps or 120 fps for the project frame rate confused John. I just mentioned those settings to get the fastest possible shutter speed with the smallest shutter angle while shooting a few time lapse frames.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I ask this two years ago when i bought my bmpc4k...
why?
not to replace my dslr but....
- raw shooting for vfx
- hdr shooting (simple preset where camera shoot 9 continuus frames with different shutter angles)
- stop motion animation (possible only by dragonframe by thunderbolt port)
- shot some photos on set from same angle of camera also when you are not acting (for advertising materials).

not difficult to implement this kind of work. All tools are avaible, we need only that software allow to do this.
Only a switch to enable front button like still photo
about a workable of dng raw... ehm dng was created from Adobe exactly to manage better and faster raw files from their software.

Carlos, those are all great reasons to add support for stills. But before that happens, you aren't prevented from shooting stills on any BMD camera that handle time lapse. Except for the HDR mode in which your exposure varies within a burst, the time lapse option can accommodate your needs plus freeze most action, no?

Here is an example of a single still shot using the TimeLapse feature set at 10 minutes; raw HD window, ISO 800, 5600K, exposure at T8, 60 fps project frame rate, shutter angle 11.25 degrees (1/1920 second):
https://www.dropbox.com/l/scl/ElLmOYLxpsQGgVcrccVIfs


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

For cinematographic usage, I have my Blackmagic Cinema Camera 2.5K EF, now with a PL adapter and the beginnings of a nice set of compact prime lenses. Pelican cases full of support stuff. Also, a Sachtler Video 18 head. I have a few small hot lights for cinema use, but really, I sometimes need to rent and HMI or two.

For videography jobs, I have a Panasonic AJ-DVX200 and a camcorder bag full of support stuff. It shoots DCI 4K in Vlog-L at 24.00fps. I usually prefer my Sachtler but I also have a small Manfrotto 502HD head to keep the system light for run-and-shoot scenarios. I have a tacklebox of cheap battery-powered LED lights I can Hollywood, attach to the camera or a reversible light stand.

For photography jobs, I have a few Canon DSLR's (I also have film cameras, including a medium format one for those that can afford it [weddings, anyone?]), a little kit of battery-powered, remote-actuated strobes, lenses ranging from 8-200mm and a bunch of lightweight, photo-only accessories.

Because those three things are separate, distinct fields of expertise and each require their own unique tools and ways of problem solving. Sure, they all involve a kind of camera, a kind of lens, a kind of recording media and a kind of illumination source to create images, but the way you do those three things are very, very different from each other. Having one camera that can effectively do any three of those types of jobs very, very well and at the same time, or at least with the push of a magic button, is unrealistic. At least, not at a price most plebeians can afford.

It's certainly not something I wish for BMD to do at the expense of having a product that is costly and probably cumbersome. I think that defeats the purpose of having BMD's affordable like of cinema and broadcast cameras. They're probably not very interested in stills at all because the market is already so saturated. If you want stills, bring a stills camera. I really don't use my 6D for video. I really don't use my BMCC for stills.

If you need stills of a "video shoot" for a client, you can always shoot a few frames of Raw DNG, and pull them into Lightroom and "print" so stills from the DNG frames. Otherwise setting up and using the BM camera as a "still camera only" for a session, is more work that setting up a proper still camera, and the still camera will still give better results.

I got a Olympus PenF to replace by Nikon for a still camera. It can shoot some video, but I use it for still work only. If I need some video, I use by BM cameras. BTW, since both are MFT mount, I can share lenses, and reduce glass investment this way. As a former photojournalist, still and video, I,would never try using a video camera for still work, too awkward, except,for tripod mounted studio work. But, then again, I would use my ROLLEI in this situation, as it is designed for studio still work.

Carlos, those are all great reasons to add support for stills. But before that happens, you aren't prevented from shooting stills on any BMD camera that handle time lapse.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i just do it often, i would like only to be more confortable

It's certainly not something I wish for BMD to do at the expense of having a product that is costly and probably cumbersome. I think that defeats the purpose of having BMD's affordable like of cinema and broadcast cameras. They're probably not very interested in stills at all because the market is already so saturated. If you want stills, bring a stills camera. I really don't use my 6D for video. I really don't use my BMCC for stills.

I understand very well your Pov, i use a sony A7r for photo, but the ability to use bmpc4k for shooting photo, or newer 4.6k is not to follow photo to video market in reverse mode, it's only an additional tool that you can have on set without to grab another pelican case full of tools...
for my kind of works often i not need a 36mpx of sony, but i need to shoot good photo on set, and grab a dng from my bmpc4k give me enought quality for vfx, with same color science, etc...
there are a lots of works where a raw still from a same camera used for shooting is a very good arrow in my arsenal

Gosh! I hope BMD does not pay attention to this request. It is a cinema camera... not a DSLR or camcorder. If you need to shoot any kind of still and don't want to deal with other equipment, pull out your smart phone and shoot that still. Done.

No worries, not likely this will not happen, even the " single frame" record function for animation has not been granted either.
DS

Gosh! I hope BMD does not pay attention to this request. It is a cinema camera... not a DSLR or camcorder. If you need to shoot any kind of still and don't want to deal with other equipment, pull out your smart phone and shoot that still. Done.

probably you never work in movie with vfx or are needings to learn how better is a good frame of environment from same color science of footage instead to align and rebuild all from dslr different color science...
every times you need to align different color science for front proiection, 3d mapping and set extension you waste a lots of times. From when i bought bmp4k lots of problems disappear thank to have 4k frames with enought resolution to work on vfx

do you want to know how many work a common vfx task require when you shoot with different camera a plate?
- align color and color science
- align lens
- align different dof from different sensor size
- align different distortion from same lens
- align different PA from same lens
- align different PA from different lens
- align different Shooting angle
- align different grain and structure of picture
- align different rendition of lens from sensors

if you shoot still from same sensor of footage a vfx facility not need to do most these works, that mean faster and better result.

Also if you think that cinematography mean motion picture, not mean that a camera must not shoot a single frame... if you not need of this, today many other people need this to do their work easely.

many years ago I learned that to be a good director is important to know not only my work, but also the work of all people that work with me, better they can work, better will be the project

These cameras can shoot 60 stills a second at 12 megapixels.
Just pick one of them and be happy.

Carlos, for what you want, you do not need a "till pix button", just put camera at 60fps 180-degree shutter, and you have a 1/120th shutter speed to shoot a few frames in the codec of your choice, or,better yet, "Raw DNG" to get your "still frames". Yiu camera can do this now. I do this with the Micro 4K often. Works great, and yiu get a 10-12 megapixel shot, same quality as if you shot it with a Nikon V1/3. And it is on the same sensor tiumaremusomgyou for your VFX footage. Yes, a single frame exposure mode would be nice, but not really necessary, except for convience.

Fashion photographers are using 4K Cine type cameras to get a series/sequence of Raw frames in "video mode" on a fashion studio shoot, then pick the best frame for their "still photo" shot to send to their client/publisher.
Cheers

Workflow for ProRes and Raw is different than for stills. It is still terrible workflow to use Black Magic Cameras for stills which is the issue workflow not convenience. It becomes more evident when you take a large lot of photos and try to send them as common image format like jpeg, png, tiff you know formats that most everyone has access. Requiring everyone to have a license in Photoshop or taking forever to convert many frames of video is a workflow issue.

Workflow for ProRes and Raw is different than for stills. It is still terrible workflow to use Black Magic Cameras for stills which is the issue workflow not convenience. It becomes more evident when you take a large lot of photos and try to send them as common image format like jpeg, png, tiff you know formats that most everyone has access. Requiring everyone to have a license in Photoshop or taking forever to convert many frames of video is a workflow issue.

dng is a standard, under mac is viewed directly by Preview of system, under windows also from win 8.1 are readed from os previews.

anyway, as i never sended cr2, ar2, nef, etc raw files to my clients, i never thought to send a dng.

If i shoot picture from bmd (same thing, raw) i develop it and send tif, jpeg, etc...
like i open in lightroom raw from dslr i open dng in the same environment, dng was created from adobe to have a standard that all raw from different brand not have...

The cameras that Blackmagic designed were to be cinema cameras (video/film) from the point of conception.
The design of all the BMD cameras are very big and very bulky to be stills cameras, but they are perfect as film cameras.

DSLRs were designed to be stills cameras from the point of conception (being that they shoved a digital sensor in the back where the exposed film would be).

If you look at the DSLR market, they tacked on the video mode as a way to make more money. But the video IQ is seriously lacking, because it wasn't designed to do video at 24fps, it was designed to take stills at about 6fps (or there abouts depending on the camera)

I (like Ellory, and Denny have said) would much rather not have the ability to take stills with the camera. It would spread the support for the camera too thin as there would have to be x number of more people added and more features that would need to be added and accounted for making it messy and frankly rather cumbersome. You need to use the right tool for the right job, and DSLRs are the right tool for stills, and BMD cameras are the right tool for filming.

As others have said, another work around is to just shoot in RAW at a higher shutter speed and frame rate, and use a RAW DNG from there in your favourite editor -- DNG is considered an industry standard for stills photography.

I'd rather that, than have the quality of the software and the camera suffer.