Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 5:16 pm

timbutt2 wrote:With the 4.6K I only see it in either Resolve or Premiere...

...which you shouldn't be seeing at all. If you do, your camera is likely affected.

The take away is that Resolve and Premiere are not causing the problem, they're revealing a different problem.

If you post a 4.6K DNG, we could tell you definitively one way or another.
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 5:21 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Sorry for the rant, it's just so frustrating when the issue is so clear and ignored at the same time.

I know, it makes one feel like a proverbial Sheriff Brody. Maybe we should just let the shark eat them.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 6:15 pm

Earl R. Thurston wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:The take away is that Resolve and Premiere are not causing the problem, they're revealing the problem.


That sums it all ^^
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Eli hershko

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 7:23 pm

If your camera exhibits crosshatch RMA the unit. BMD fixed mine. I sent it in and 14 days later I got it back free of crosshatch at any level.

Just send your units in.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 10:42 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:If someone interested here are few grey card DNGs frames from BMMCC. Even without noise reduction Cross Hatching pattern is visible there very nice at 200-300% zooming in and at custom ratio zooming out.


Downloaded your files - can't see anything crosshatchy in Resolve (latest version) at any magnification.

Not in the Resolve preview monitor, and not on my video preview monitor.

Same goes for James' PNGs. Looks just fine in my browser and image viewer.

Frank, if you wish to reveal the issue in Resolve, you need to be at a zoom level where the embedded pattern in the image starts interfering with your current display window size. Use the zoom slider under Edit Sizing or Input Sizing on the Color page (not with Output Sizing or Node Sizing since that scales from the timeline size instead of the media size). Slowly zoom in until you see it. By doing this I can see the pattern in the image provided my James (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4047574/4.6k.png) on the GUI screen.

To see it on an external monitor connected to a DeckLink or UltraStudio, you need to set Image Scaling/Resize Filter to “Bilinear”. Granted this is the worst scaling algorithm, but the point is than on any normal image with random noise it will still just be noise when scaled. When scaling James’s image there’s crosshatching instead. If the external monitor is UHD, you need to zoom out instead of in.
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timbutt2

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 11:15 pm

Earl R. Thurston wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:With the 4.6K I only see it in either Resolve or Premiere...

...which you shouldn't be seeing at all. If you do, your camera is likely affected.

The take away is that Resolve and Premiere are not causing the problem, they're revealing a different problem.

If you post a 4.6K DNG, we could tell you definitively one way or another.

I'm uploading at the moment, and I've included two photos: One is the Grab Still, and Gallery Export to JPG of that still, and the other is the Screen Shot of how the cross hatch appears in resolve. I've set the timeline to 4608x2592 and that's what caused the Cross Hatch to show up. Otherwise it doesn't appear in the footage when exported. I've included a full ProRes 444 4608x2592 export with no color grading to show this.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u9h1v1uh62wy ... tbEaa?dl=0

Give about an hour or so for all the files to upload.
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timbutt2

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 11:24 pm

Since I can only cause the cross-hatch to appear with regards to scaling in the nonlinear, then I know it's not something in my footage.

Again, I pointed out earlier in a post that the first instance I ever ran into with cross-hatching was with the 2.5K with the 2.1 Firmware update. As I said, it showed up on my BMCC 2.5K LCD, and when I downgraded and re-upgraded it disappeared. The footage I shot didn't show the cross-hatch at all.

So I'm simply sharing that my experience has been with it not being in the footage I capture. When I got the 4.6K the first time I saw it was in Resolve when I changed my timeline resolution to 4608x2592, and yet when I exported the footage it didn't export. When I shot UHD and loaded it into Premiere I saw it during playback. Paused it didn't show up. When I put "High Quality Playback" on the cross-hatch disappeared inside Premiere.

Overall, this has not been a concern for me. I'm trying to give comfort to others that some of us out there who've witnessed cross-hatching in the non-linear editor don't have it in the footage. I'm experiencing a scaling issue with software.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Oct 26, 2016 11:41 pm

Here is my summary:
350px-Bayer_pattern_on_sensor.svg.png
350px-Bayer_pattern_on_sensor.svg.png (33.84 KiB) Viewed 13991 times

1. Wrong debayering of second green pixel produces semy-invisible fixed pixel grid which is partially hidden under the sensor noise. As a result at some zoom or scale levels in various players and apps this invisible grid may produce highly visible cross-hatch moire-like pattern.
2. Depending of image contrast, added sharpen and noise reduction amount, and player scaling method this pattern may be visible or not visible at all.
3. In BMMCC which is limited to 1920x1080 resolution this makes sensor Noise and FPN more visible (it behaves like some kind of shadow noise and FPN sharpening, adds additional digital artifacts to noise texture) and this limits the amount of visually usable shadow details.
4. People noticed this effect in BMPCC and BMPC cameras. In BMPCC it is harder to see because it is slightly noisier than BMMCC and pixel pattern more hidden under the noise.
5. This effect depends of camera firmware version.
6. This problem can be fixed with fix in CornerFix app https://sites.google.com/site/cornerfix ... patterns-1 but this fix works only in ACR, all other RAW processing apps ignore it.
7. BM support team answer: "this is currently under investigation by our Development team"
8. As a temporary solution for this problem shifting image position by setting X Y position to 0.5 works very well (note that in Resolve this works only with RAW footage, but in Adobe apps it works with both ProRes and RAW footage)
Last edited by Dmitry Shijan on Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:50 am, edited 7 times in total.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 12:00 am

timbutt2 wrote:Overall, this has not been a concern for me. I'm trying to give comfort to others that some of us out there who've witnessed cross-hatching in the non-linear editor don't have it in the footage. I'm experiencing a scaling issue with software.

The scaling issue is caused by a fine detail pattern in the footage. When exporting to a lower resolution that detail is mostly filtered out. Different players may filter in different ways as you discovered in Premiere. Still, the root cause is in the footage, not the NLE.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 12:18 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Here is my summary:
1. Wrong debayering of second green pixel produces semy-invisible fixed pixel grid which is partially hidden under the sensor noise. As a result at some zoom or scale levels in various players and apps this invisible grid may produce highly visible cross-hatch moire-like pattern.
2. Depending of image contrast, added sharpen and noise reduction amount, and player scaling method this pattern may be visible or not visible at all.
3. In BMMCC which is limited to 1920x1080 resolution this makes sensor Noise and FPN more visible (it behaves like some kind of shadow noise and FPN sharpening, adds additional digital artifacts to noise texture) and this limits the amount of visually usable shadow details.
4. People noticed this effect in BMPCC and BMPC cameras, but there is no clear tests yet. In BMPCC it is harder to see because it is slightly noisier than BMMCC and pixel pattern more hidden under the noise.
5. This effect depends of camera firmware version.
6. This problem can be fixed with fix in CornerFix app, but this fix works only in ACR https://sites.google.com/site/cornerfix ... patterns-1
7. BM support team answer: "this is currently under investigation by our Development team"


Hey Dimitry,

Thanks for your summary, I think you and Earl are hitting the nail on the head to be honest, I have a limited understanding of debayering and I'm actively trying to learn about it, I have been grabbing lots of footage together to do a little screen cast on what I have found on my UM 4.6k.

I wasn't too fussed about the scaling crosshatching issue as I knew that wasn't always visible and it didn't transfer over to an exported H.264 (probably hidden with the loss of detail in the compression), however after submitting my report to BM support and filming that gig on the same evening when I got back I was far from impressed with the footage at 4.6k.

It was tough lighting conditions for sure however something just isn't quite right with the way the sensor is handling the images at 4k resolutions IMO, you get away with it in good lighting situations and to be honest examining my shots in good light the pattern in the shadows is negligible really, you can only see it when really blowing up the image which is just stupid as people will never view it like that.

An interesting test I did today was to put a well lit shot together with a poorly lit scene from the gig, played at full screen the well lit shot shows no cross hatching and as soon as the shot cuts to the dark scene bang, cross hatch hell, so as Earl has mentioned, the scaling is the bi product of the small pattern within the dark areas of the image, people shooting RAW seem to be able to correct this however I never shoot RAW so the in camera debayering needs some sort of fix when encoding to ProRes.

I really sound like I am moaning all the time on here and I really don't want to, I waited a long time for this camera and in good light 4k is defiantly usable however in more challenging situations I would probably now opt for no higher than 2k.

It's great to hear that its under investigation and it would be great to hear an official response about them working on this, overall I have been very happy with the images I have been getting in good light and although its a big investment for me personally I have to remember this camera body is £3,500, so its going to have its pitfalls.
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David Hessel

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 3:53 am

timbutt2 wrote:
Earl R. Thurston wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:With the 4.6K I only see it in either Resolve or Premiere...

...which you shouldn't be seeing at all. If you do, your camera is likely affected.

The take away is that Resolve and Premiere are not causing the problem, they're revealing a different problem.

If you post a 4.6K DNG, we could tell you definitively one way or another.

I'm uploading at the moment, and I've included two photos: One is the Grab Still, and Gallery Export to JPG of that still, and the other is the Screen Shot of how the cross hatch appears in resolve. I've set the timeline to 4608x2592 and that's what caused the Cross Hatch to show up. Otherwise it doesn't appear in the footage when exported. I've included a full ProRes 444 4608x2592 export with no color grading to show this.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u9h1v1uh62wy ... tbEaa?dl=0

Give about an hour or so for all the files to upload.


Sorry to tell you but yours has it too. Here are two images one is from the dng and the other from your mov clip, your rendered out jpg shows it too and looks just like the mov. They both show crosshatching. It is this fine pattern that is the source of all the problems.

Make sure to open these files by downloading or in a new tab to view them full size. The forum is scaling them down.
A001_2016-08-13_C001 (17-02-13-23).jpg
Mov File
A001_2016-08-13_C001 (17-02-13-23).jpg (151.62 KiB) Viewed 15075 times


A001_2016-08-13_C001_000000-zoom.jpg
DNG File
A001_2016-08-13_C001_000000-zoom.jpg (169.78 KiB) Viewed 15075 times


I cannot work with files larger than UHD in Resolve as I am using the free version so these where done in photoshop and after effects. I also used Nuke to check the mov file with the same result.
Last edited by David Hessel on Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 2:07 pm

It looks the same in resolve too if I change the default sizing type to center crop/no scaling, that way there no scaling being done regardless of the timeline resolution. I need to do this since I can't create a 4.6k timeline. Shows up on the rendered output as well.

Lastly here is your green channel undebayered pulled out of the DNG. It shows the tell tale alternating rows of brightness that we beilieve is the underlying source of the hatching.

Again save or open the image in a new tab/window to view full size.
tim-green-zoom.jpg
Green Channel
tim-green-zoom.jpg (145.62 KiB) Viewed 14950 times
Last edited by David Hessel on Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 2:10 pm

Here is a little screen cast of my findings, hopefully this helps some people out, sorry its only left channel mono I didn't realise after I had recorded it and I couldn't be bothered to double it up and re-export it.

Screencast Here
https://vimeo.com/189151214/14cba50c79

If people who have returned cameras can keep us informed on how they get on it will shape how I will approach contacting BM Support moving forward.

Thanks
Last edited by James Alexander Barnett on Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 4:28 pm

Eli hershko wrote:If your camera exhibits crosshatch RMA the unit. BMD fixed mine. I sent it in and 14 days later I got it back free of crosshatch at any level.

Just send your units in.



Hey Eli,

Could you post a link to a clip shot in prores at 800ISO or higher, in a dimly lit environment at 4.6k? I'm very curious to compare you footage to mine after BMD fixed yours. They seem very reluctant to take my camera back, so I'm just trying to prove to them that someone in their RMA department has fixed this problem (with your camera). Would be greatly appreciated!
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Phillip Bergman

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 4:31 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Since I can only cause the cross-hatch to appear with regards to scaling in the nonlinear, then I know it's not something in my footage.

Again, I pointed out earlier in a post that the first instance I ever ran into with cross-hatching was with the 2.5K with the 2.1 Firmware update. As I said, it showed up on my BMCC 2.5K LCD, and when I downgraded and re-upgraded it disappeared. The footage I shot didn't show the cross-hatch at all.

So I'm simply sharing that my experience has been with it not being in the footage I capture. When I got the 4.6K the first time I saw it was in Resolve when I changed my timeline resolution to 4608x2592, and yet when I exported the footage it didn't export. When I shot UHD and loaded it into Premiere I saw it during playback. Paused it didn't show up. When I put "High Quality Playback" on the cross-hatch disappeared inside Premiere.

Overall, this has not been a concern for me. I'm trying to give comfort to others that some of us out there who've witnessed cross-hatching in the non-linear editor don't have it in the footage. I'm experiencing a scaling issue with software.


Could you post a link to download a clip that was shot at 4.6k prores, at 800ISO or higher, in a dimly lit room? I'd like to check it out and compare to my footage (which shows tons of crosshatching in said environment).
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 4:52 pm

Here's a link to download a prores UHD at 800ISO shot in my office. and then I attached Jpegs of what it looks like upon playback in VLC.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B858Ua ... sp=sharing

46k800ISOplaybackVLC.jpg
46k800ISOplaybackVLC.jpg (327.26 KiB) Viewed 14942 times


46k800ISOplaybackVLCsmaller.jpg
46k800ISOplaybackVLCsmaller.jpg (517.93 KiB) Viewed 14942 times
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Dustin Albert

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Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 5:36 pm

Just checked my unit after reading all this and I can confirm I see it too. When zoomed in at 400+ % you can clearly see a fine grid pattern that is embedded into the footage which seems to be the driving force behind the scaling issues

I agree that this is a sensor issue and not an issue with scaling. Scaling only reveals what's already there.

I also want to mention that it's apparent in RAW files as well. If it was a scaling issue it would not appear in RAW.


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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 5:56 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I'm uploading at the moment...

Sorry, Tim. It's present in your DNG as well:

A001_2016-08-13_C001_details.jpg
A001_2016-08-13_C001_details.jpg (61.65 KiB) Viewed 14920 times


Remember, the problem is what you see in the top left side of this graphic -- a debayering error that creates microscopic crosshatching at exact odd/even pixel boundaries.

The side-effect is the moiré that may (but not always) occur, which is shown on the top right of this graphic. The chance of this appearing varies but by how much the image is resized and how much (if any) blurring is done to reduce the moiré. Anyone resizing your video in QuickTime or another desktop player will have the risk of seeing this.

The debayering problem shouldn't be occuring at all. If the DNG is debayered properly, there should be no risk of seeing the moiré side-effect with any resizing, as demonstrated in the bottom half of the graphic.
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timbutt2

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Well, I guess I have it. However, it has not been a negative problem thus far. All the footage I've shot has come out looking fine and plays well for others. I've played it all on a big screen without any apparent cross hatch issues.

We'll have to wait and see what happens on the Blackmagic side of things. I trust them a lot. They've made an incredible camera with a fantastic sensor. I'm still in awe of the images this thing produces.
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Earl R. Thurston

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 7:17 pm

timbutt2 wrote:We'll have to wait and see what happens on the Blackmagic side of things. I trust them a lot. They've made an incredible camera with a fantastic sensor.

I agree with you there. These cameras do an incredible job at this price. I have confidence that BMD, once they understand that this is an issue under their control (and they probably do by now, even if they're not discussing it openly), they will fix it just like they did when the BMCC 2.5K had a similar problem.

And even with the problem as it stands now, it's not insurmountable. It won't reveal itself for some, and there are actual ways to deal with it outright. None of this has made me cancel my pending order for the URSA Mini 4K.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 7:39 pm

Earl R. Thurston wrote:And even with the problem as it stands now, it's not insurmountable. It won't reveal itself for some, and there are actual ways to deal with it outright. None of this has made me cancel my pending order for the URSA Mini 4K.

URSA Mini 4K has different sensor technology than BMCC, BMPCC, BMMCC and UM4.6k which are used BAE/Fairchild Imaging sensors, so probably it does not suffer from same problem.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Oct 27, 2016 9:11 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Well, I guess I have it. However, it has not been a negative problem thus far. All the footage I've shot has come out looking fine and plays well for others. I've played it all on a big screen without any apparent cross hatch issues.

We'll have to wait and see what happens on the Blackmagic side of things. I trust them a lot. They've made an incredible camera with a fantastic sensor. I'm still in awe of the images this thing produces.


Clearly it has not been since it wasn't causing you any issues. Just be mindful of it, wouldn't want it become a negative problem on a paid shoot or something. Even if you are not planning om RMA'ing it maybe contact support anyway and let them know, the more people who do so the better. As they say the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Good luck with the camera, I hope it continues to serve you well.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Oct 28, 2016 1:08 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:
Eli hershko wrote:If your camera exhibits crosshatch RMA the unit. BMD fixed mine. I sent it in and 14 days later I got it back free of crosshatch at any level.

Just send your units in.



Hey Eli,

Could you post a link to a clip shot in prores at 800ISO or higher, in a dimly lit environment at 4.6k? I'm very curious to compare you footage to mine after BMD fixed yours. They seem very reluctant to take my camera back, so I'm just trying to prove to them that someone in their RMA department has fixed this problem (with your camera). Would be greatly appreciated!


Hi there... Sorry for the late response. I am shooting currently so will try to get to it next week monday or tuesday.

Eli.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostFri Oct 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Hey Philip,
Here is a link to download a 52 seconds clip of 4.6k prores 422 file.https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/xaVYK
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 1:23 am

Eli hershko wrote:Hey Philip,
Here is a link to download a 52 seconds clip of 4.6k prores 422 file.https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/xaVYK

Its really nice. I can't find any cross hatching pixels in this example at all. Only nice looking grain.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 11:33 am

Eli hershko wrote:Hey Philip,
Here is a link to download a 52 seconds clip of 4.6k prores 422 file.https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/xaVYK

Excellent. I was hesitant to send mine in for RMA, but I'm definitely doing it now.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 5:50 pm

Eli hershko wrote:Hey Philip,
Here is a link to download a 52 seconds clip of 4.6k prores 422 file.https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/xaVYK


Thanks Eli! This is extremely helpful! I see zero crosshatching in your shot. When I play your shot back in VLC I can't find any crosshatch anywhere and can't make any appear by resizing the window at all. Also I brought your clip and one that I shot into Resolve and if you download the below pics and zoom in, you can see the huge difference between the two...mine has an awful pattern, and yours is clean! this great news. What ISO were you shooting at btw?


PhillipFootage46kProres1.jpg
PhillipFootage46kProres1.jpg (335.32 KiB) Viewed 14647 times


EliFootage46kProres1.jpg
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James Alexander Barnett

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 5:52 pm

I have contacted support in the U.K. twice now explaining my issue and also referencing that people have benefitted from sending there camera's back to them to be recalibrated and all they have told me is that that behaviour is being investigated by their team, they seem very reluctant to commit to doing anything for me at the moment and have asked me to send them some DNG's for them to look at.

Would be great to know if they have loaded a special version of v4.0 firmware to Eli's camera or if they have tweaked the hardware, does your firmware just show up as v4.0 in the menu Eli?
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 6:03 pm

James Barnett wrote:I have contacted support in the U.K. twice now explaining my issue and also referencing that people have benefitted from sending there camera's back to them to be recalibrated and all they have told me is that that behaviour is being investigated by their team, they seem very reluctant to commit to doing anything for me at the moment and have asked me to send them some DNG's for them to look at.

Would be great to know if they have loaded a special version of v4.0 firmware to Eli's camera or if they have tweaked the hardware, does your firmware just show up as v4.0 in the menu Eli?



Dude I know what you mean, I've been going back and forth with them as well....weird thing is, the RMA location Eli sent his camera to, Fremont, CA, is the same one I send mine to....I sent them an email yesterday after they requested DNGs and I gave them DNGs and tons of prores clips that show the pattern, I referenced Eli's RMA # and told them that someone at that same RMA location managed to fix his camera so they need to reference that RMA# and do the same for mine. We'll see what they say. But at this point, especially with Eli's new prores clip, we have all the evidence that this is infact fixable, and if they don't want to RMA our cameras then they are basically telling us that they sold us defective cameras and refuse to repair them....hopefully that's not the case.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 10:48 pm

I'm afraid that this Cross Hatching pixel grid was in cameras all the time but in older models it was more hidden under the sensor noise. For example i here is a test of BMPCC with same Cross Hatching pixel grid (left) and fixed with BayerGreenSplit fix (left)
DNGs taken from this review http://www.eoshd.com/2013/11/8-cinema-d ... amera-raw/
Screen-Shot-2016-10-30-at-1.40.04-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-10-30-at-1.40.04-AM.jpg (479.77 KiB) Viewed 14613 times
Screen-Shot-2016-10-30-at-1.38.17-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-10-30-at-1.38.17-AM.jpg (573.23 KiB) Viewed 14613 times
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 10:58 pm

I guess Blackmagic needs to upgrade their debayering algorithm
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSat Oct 29, 2016 11:10 pm

And here is from another BMPCC review. Another camera but same Cross Hatching pixel grid.
Screen-Shot-2016-10-30-at-2.07.58-AM.jpg
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 10:07 am

My BMPCC has it too, but as you say, much less visible.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 1:26 pm

"James Barnett wrote:
I have contacted support in the U.K. twice now explaining my issue and also referencing that people have benefitted from sending there camera's back to them to be recalibrated and all they have told me is that that behaviour is being investigated by their team, they seem very reluctant to commit to doing anything for me at the moment and have asked me to send them some DNG's for them to look at.

Would be great to know if they have loaded a special version of v4.0 firmware to Eli's camera or if they have tweaked the hardware, does your firmware just show up as v4.0 in the menu Eli?"

I was told that the camera has to be calibrated. when I got it back after RMA it had 3.0 firmware on it. I had to upgrade the firmware to 4.0 again on my own.

I shot the clip at iso800.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 2:10 pm

Eli hershko wrote:I was told that the camera has to be calibrated. when I got it back after RMA it had 3.0 firmware on it. I had to upgrade the firmware to 4.0 again on my own.

So if its not a firmware fix that sounds not too optimistic. I think for BM it will be not too easy RMA every camera they made. Its better if they figure how to fix it without sending cameras to them and back because this problem is not unique for every camera. Maybe some kind of remote calibration service? For example you connect camera to USB and send request to support with serial number, and so the camera updated and fixed online. Or just some additional patch not related to firmware version.
Cross Hatching can be fixed with exact same pixel shift settings for UM4.6K, BMPCC, BMMCC (tested in this thread) and probably for BMPC (untested yet).
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 2:23 pm

Yes, calibration makes more sense to me than simply evening out the green channels.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Some DNGs shot yesterday at 1600 ISO, sent these to support too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dv80zy3gooo6 ... s.zip?dl=0
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostSun Oct 30, 2016 9:58 pm

I've been following this thread for just over a week and after testing my camera for this problem and seeing it, I sent black magic support an email. They replied asking me to shoot a well lit scene do a pan and send them some dng files. I am in the process of doing that.

I have figured out how to get the pattern to show up on the LCD. I am using latest firmware, I haven't tested with previous versions. Resolution must be UHD or higher. Go into the menu-> monitor-> LCD-> Text surrounds image ON. Any dark area of image will show pattern. Not sure if this helps at all in solving the problem but maybe others who don't see the pattern in their footage can confirm if the pattern appears on LCD.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Oct 31, 2016 6:53 pm

Phillip Bergman wrote:Dude I know what you mean, I've been going back and forth with them as well....weird thing is, the RMA location Eli sent his camera to, Fremont, CA, is the same one I send mine to....I sent them an email yesterday after they requested DNGs and I gave them DNGs and tons of prores clips that show the pattern, I referenced Eli's RMA # and told them that someone at that same RMA location managed to fix his camera so they need to reference that RMA# and do the same for mine. We'll see what they say. But at this point, especially with Eli's new prores clip, we have all the evidence that this is infact fixable, and if they don't want to RMA our cameras then they are basically telling us that they sold us defective cameras and refuse to repair them....hopefully that's not the case.


Shame on BMD support for being so capricious. My Ursa Mini 4.6K had the problem, but I was able to set up an RMA through the Fremont office and it came back fixed.

Here’s a UHD ProRes clip taken before RMA:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnf ... lN4TnlyT2M

And here’s a UHD ProRes clip taken after RMA:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnf ... 0xlV3ozNlk

If it’s useful to you, my RMA# was: 123223

timbutt2 wrote: Well, I guess I have it. However, it has not been a negative problem thus far. All the footage I've shot has come out looking fine and plays well for others. I've played it all on a big screen without any apparent cross hatch issues.


Based on the images you posted, your camera definitely does have the issue. If you have a project that is mastering in HD but shooting UHD to be able zoom and reframe shots in post, the cross hatching issue will definitely bite you and cause artifacts. In my tests the problem carries through all the way into rendered exports. The only solution to the problem in Resolve is to treat every clip with the .drx fixes offered by BMD. And even these are not ideal as they are just blurring the green channel to lessen the effect rather than solving the cause of the problem in camera.

timbutt2 wrote:We'll have to wait and see what happens on the Blackmagic side of things. I trust them a lot. They've made an incredible camera with a fantastic sensor. I'm still in awe of the images this thing produces.


It’s a kind gesture to put your faith in BMD, but if everyone stays silent and plays the waiting game, the issue is unlikely to get the attention it deserves. Even if you aren’t motivated to RMA your camera (though I really think you should), please at least contact BMD support about the issue and let them know that you have an affected camera. It will help speed a solution to the problem for everyone.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostMon Oct 31, 2016 9:30 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Phillip Bergman wrote:Dude I know what you mean, I've been going back and forth with them as well....weird thing is, the RMA location Eli sent his camera to, Fremont, CA, is the same one I send mine to....I sent them an email yesterday after they requested DNGs and I gave them DNGs and tons of prores clips that show the pattern, I referenced Eli's RMA # and told them that someone at that same RMA location managed to fix his camera so they need to reference that RMA# and do the same for mine. We'll see what they say. But at this point, especially with Eli's new prores clip, we have all the evidence that this is infact fixable, and if they don't want to RMA our cameras then they are basically telling us that they sold us defective cameras and refuse to repair them....hopefully that's not the case.


Shame on BMD support for being so capricious. My Ursa Mini 4.6K had the problem, but I was able to set up an RMA through the Fremont office and it came back fixed.

Here’s a UHD ProRes clip taken before RMA:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnf ... lN4TnlyT2M

And here’s a UHD ProRes clip taken after RMA:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnf ... 0xlV3ozNlk

If it’s useful to you, my RMA# was: 123223



Thank you for this! This is very helpful as I will send them your RMA # for reference as well. It's frustrating that in talking to them they seeming don't seem to know that this problem exists when in fact they've seen it, and fixed it on several peoples cameras already. I feel like it's on me to tell them that they've fixed it before, and show them how they can find out how they've done it before by giving them other people's RMA numbers. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostTue Nov 01, 2016 12:50 am

So today i got one one more response about BMMCC. I was told that at present BM support are not offering RMA for this problem because they still collecting information and feedback and investigate how to fix it.
I really want to believe that they plane to fix it with firmware update, but who knows when...

Also as a temporary solution for this problem shifting image position by setting X Y position to 0.5 works very well. No any sharpness loss (maybe because Mosaic OLPF installed on camera and it softens image more than that half pixel shift) and as a bonus this method acts as slight AA filter.

The bad news that this trick works only with DNG RAW files.

Screen-Shot-2016-11-01-at-10.07.35-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-01-at-10.07.35-AM.jpg (25.42 KiB) Viewed 14317 times
11.jpg
11.jpg (135.65 KiB) Viewed 14329 times
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 02, 2016 12:13 pm

One more update about this 0.5px shift fix - sometimes it works, sometimes not. Sometimes it even can makes things worse at pixel level. I really can't understand the logic here :(
Also it is possible that i garble something in previous test. Here is result what i got now with and without 0.5 XY transform in worst pixel aliasing scenario that i was able to simulate with Mosaic OLPF filter, 50mm F5.6 Yashica lens and DIY A3 crappy printed test chart.
Screen-Shot-2016-11-02-at-5.00.26-PM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-02-at-5.00.26-PM.jpg (126.68 KiB) Viewed 14243 times
Screen-Shot-2016-11-02-at-4.47.27-PM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-02-at-4.47.27-PM.jpg (120.93 KiB) Viewed 14244 times
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 02, 2016 4:31 pm

Eli hershko wrote:I was told that the camera has to be calibrated. when I got it back after RMA it had 3.0 firmware on it. I had to upgrade the firmware to 4.0 again on my own.

I shot the clip at iso800.


Sigh... Because I had an issue with the LCD screen as well as the cross hatching they didn't recalibrate my camera, instead they sent me a new one. With cross hatching.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 02, 2016 5:32 pm

I contacted UK support yesterday
Got an email today saying they arent RMA'ing yet
Pls send dng's blah blah
They must be getting lots of DNG's in the mail :-0
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 02, 2016 8:28 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Also as a temporary solution for this problem shifting image position by setting X Y position to 0.5 works very well...The bad news that this trick works only with DNG RAW files.

For Adobe users, both Premiere and After Effects allow sub-pixel positioning. Simply add 0.5 to the center points in the Motion -> Position settings.

e.g. change "2304.0 x 1296.0" to "2304.5 x 1296.5"

That will work with ProRes files as well as RAW.

Dmitry Shijan wrote:One more update about this 0.5px shift fix - sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Not sure if this is the reason for you, but the half-pixel shift will only work properly when the footage is 1:1 off the sensor pixels, either full sensor or windowed. The even/odd pixels on the sensor need to be exactly the same even/odd pixels in the file. That is needed to ensure the resulting offset contains an equal 50/50 blend of even/odd source pixels in the destination pixels. If any intermediate scaling is done in the camera, (i.e. from full sensor to UHD), this trick won't work very well. (The only exception is an exact 50% reduction in camera, such as 3840x2160 windowed to 1920x1080, which would do the necessary blending in-camera so it isn't required in the NLE.)
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostWed Nov 02, 2016 9:49 pm

Not sure if that is true either. On the only footage I have ever measured the grid structure was 6 x 6 pixels so I don't think shifting the image by half a pixel is going to correct for that.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 4:28 am

Earl R. Thurston wrote:That will work with ProRes files as well as RAW.

Nope. I used ProRes footage from this thread, set to center with no resize in project settings. And it don't removes pixel pattern same as in RAW files, it just adds slight blur to it (Anyway i don't care because i work only with RAW). Take a look:
Screen-Shot-2016-11-03-at-6.23.01-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-03-at-6.23.01-AM.jpg (438.67 KiB) Viewed 14118 times
Screen-Shot-2016-11-03-at-6.22.52-AM.jpg
Screen-Shot-2016-11-03-at-6.22.52-AM.jpg (441.97 KiB) Viewed 14118 times
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 6:46 am

roger.magnusson wrote:Sigh... Because I had an issue with the LCD screen as well as the cross hatching they didn't recalibrate my camera, instead they sent me a new one. With cross hatching.


Sent mine to RMA as well, they said it didnt pass the test and they sent me a new one, with cross-hatching and even worse FPN. you wouldnt believe this until you do.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 3:25 pm

thomas bruegger wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:Sigh... Because I had an issue with the LCD screen as well as the cross hatching they didn't recalibrate my camera, instead they sent me a new one. With cross hatching.


Sent mine to RMA as well, they said it didnt pass the test and they sent me a new one, with cross-hatching and even worse FPN. you wouldnt believe this until you do.



Huh? Didn't pass what test exactly? The test of being defective? Then why did they send you a replacement!! This company man, every RMA location has different responses, and seemingly none of them communicate with each other or have any idea what's going on....it's ridiculous.
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Re: Cross Hatching Wont Go Away

PostThu Nov 03, 2016 5:03 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
Earl R. Thurston wrote:That will work with ProRes files as well as RAW.

Nope. I used ProRes footage from this thread, set to center with no resize in project settings.

Your screen shots show Resolve. I was talking about Adobe programs. It also looks like that shot may be UHD downscaled in-camera (can Phillip confirm)?

Nevertheless, here's how it can be cleaned up in After Effects:

UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_Before.jpg
UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_Before.jpg (136.53 KiB) Viewed 14030 times


UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_After.jpg
UM46ISO800UHDInside_AE_After.jpg (141.74 KiB) Viewed 14030 times
Last edited by Earl R. Thurston on Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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