Blackmagic Forum

SOLVED: Just let Windows "scan and fix" the card. More info below...

Ursa Mini 4.6K with firmware 4.0

While shooting, I switched codecs. 2 issues happened simultaneously:

1 issue: One of the raw shots (120 fps, 2K), came out unreadable. The shot plays fine inside the camera, but it is unreadable in the card reader.

2 issue: All of the other files that were previously playing back fine, now are NOT showing in camera, but are still readable in card reader.

Specs:

Ursa Mini 4.6K EF, firmware 4.0
Lexar CFAST 3600 256GB, formatted to exFat
Lexar card reader.
Windows 7 Ultimate.

Attaching a picture for more details:

Immediately after that I tried another shot with the same settings - it was not corrupted.

I could say, a corruption that happens rarely, is worse, than a major corruption. The second case may be warranty fix-able, but the first case can give you a cold shower after a day of hard and expensive shoot.

Pretty sure it's not wise to change codecs without formatting.. not on an ursa anyway. Always corrupts


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Emilian, the last time I looked, the Lexar 3600x cards were not approved for BMD. The 3500x cards are. Might be a factor to consider with the unreliable performance you experienced.


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Well Arri approved the Lexar x3600, so I though it would work on BMD. And it did, really all of my tests were good, except this 1 shot.

http://www.arri.com/camera/amira/workfl ... ing/media/

I think that "changing codecs without formatting" may really be the issue. Will do more tests. Thanks.

I had a weird problem on a shoot last week, at first when I inserted the card into my Lexar reader connected to a MacBook Pro it wouldn't mount, after a few times of plugging and unplugging eventually it came up saying that I needed to initialise the card, my heart sank thinking have I lost all of the footage?

I tried a couple more times and eventually it mounted and I managed to get all of the ProRes files off the card, not sure if this was a Mac/card reader connection problem but it worked in the end. From the shooting I have done I haven't had any problems changing codec etc, not sure why this would corrupt a card seems unlikely to me as all its doing is changing the bit rate/frame size of the files its writing.

If your really stuck try a data recovery programme, Data Rescue is a good one for Mac, I'm not familiar with PC's however I'm sure there will be something similar.

Emilian Dechev wrote:Well Arri approved the Lexar x3600, so I though it would work on BMD. And it did, really all of my tests were good, except this 1 shot.

http://www.arri.com/camera/amira/workfl ... ing/media/

I think that "changing codecs without formatting" may really be the issue. Will do more tests. Thanks.

Emilian, the 3600x may continue to work for you, but safer to go with the 3500x card on the recommended list the next time you buy.

I've had no problems shooting multiple codes in multiple flavours using the approved Wise 3400x cards. They're not the fastest draw in the West, but they are a sharpshooter.


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Yes you may be right. We need more clarification on the 3600x.

read next post

Alright I did some more observations.

The problem seems far more mundane than I thought.

Also, I did the same test on a 3600x and on a 3400x - results were the same.
So it is safe to assume, that is not card related.


Problem description:

If you record multiple clips at different codecs AND/OR resolutions, the camera Playback will only show, that particular codec and/or resolution that is currently selected in the menu. All other codecs and/or resolutions will not be visible, until the setting in the menu is changed.


Example:

I shoot 4 clips - 1st and 3rd at RAW, then the 2nd and 4th at Prores.
Then I go to playback.
If the currently selected codec in the menu is RAW, then playback will only recognize the 1st and 3rd clip.
I go to menu and do a switch to Prores - then the playback will only show the 2nd and 4th clip.

Note: Same behaviour is present when switching resolution. Playback cannot recognize different resolutions at the same time. It only reads the currently set resolution in recording menu.

P.S.

But as to why my clip was unreadable in card reader from the 1st test when I created this topic - no one knows. Both 3600x and 3400x are working fine now.

Yes, that handling of playback codecs is the same as all other BMD cameras that record raw and ProRes. Even when you are not in playback mode, some menu changes that are applied when you quit the menu to return to record mode cause a pause during which time I suspect software is being loaded to handle those new settings. Not sure how this is architected by BMD, but it's something everyone discovers when they switch codecs.

Good the 3600x are working again. It may have been a temporary issue and may never return. Fingers crossed.


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Oops - aftermath from todays shoot:
80 non corrupted folders vs 2 corrupted folders.

Well 2 bad shots out of 80 may not seem much, but on a drama shoot, it is crucial.

Ursa Mini 4.6K, Lexar 3600x 256gb, Lexar reader, Windows 10. All shots at RAW 4.6K or RAW 2K @ 25fps.

NOTE: these 2 shots are playable in camera. Just cant be read in the card reader.

Will try to pinpoint the culprit, but still that is a random problem, that I cannot replicate.

Any suggestions?

If they are on the same card, it might be a bad one.

If you can play in camera, I'd record the output immediately!

Yeah Uli, I will try record the playback through Atomos Shogun.

Another note:

The bad shots are 4.6K.

The shots before and after the bad ones are 2K.

So maybe something to do with changing resolutions like that?

I tried to replicate the problem by changing resolutions, but I cant.

Emilian Dechev wrote:NOTE: these 2 shots are playable in camera. Just cant be read in the card reader.

Will try to pinpoint the culprit, but still that is a random problem, that I cannot replicate.

Any suggestions?

If they are playable in camera then it SCREAMS a problem with your card reader or the way you're reading your cards.

This is a very common symptom and almost always the culprit is the card reader, or the cable or the way the car is being read.

JB

rick.lang wrote:Yes, that handling of playback codecs is the same as all other BMD cameras that record raw and ProRes. Even when you are not in playback mode, some menu changes that are applied when you quit the menu to return to record mode cause a pause during which time I suspect software is being loaded to handle those new settings. Not sure how this is architected by BMD, but it's something everyone discovers when they switch codecs.

Good the 3600x are working again. It may have been a temporary issue and may never return. Fingers crossed.
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Yes, the Camera reboots the video processor card each time you make a codec change, and the delay is the reboot, loading the new instruction set in. The Pocket and Micro cameras even do this going from record to playback and back to record.
Cheers

Ok I just tried a couple of different card readers - no luck.

So the problem is in the card, further tests are needed to reproduce the issue.

I guess I can't RMA the card, since the problem occurs so rarely.

I ended up with corrupted files and a bad drive when I tried to use an SSD that was too slow. I wrote some software to try to get the footage back, and it worked until my computer had a crash at the same time I was transferring, which shot the whole drive.

Anyway, I present the software for you to consider at your own risk: https://github.com/stephenplusplus/dropped-frames -- I intend to wrap it up in an installer, so it's just "download, install, & run!" but in its current state, it requires a few more commands.

I haven't tested on Windows, only on OS X. You will have to install Node.js first: https://nodejs.org/en/download/ then in the Terminal application, run the commands you see here: https://github.com/stephenplusplus/dropped-frames

Sorry for the complicated steps, but if anyone out there is in a desperate situation, I figured you might at least consider it. If you have any questions about it, let me know.

Emilian Dechev wrote:Ok I just tried a couple of different card readers - no luck.

So the problem is in the card, further tests are needed to reproduce the issue.

I guess I can't RMA the card, since the problem occurs so rarely.

How are the card readers connecting to the computer, and which program are you trying to download to?
DS

I had the same problem. To retrieve the file Corrupted on windows MS-Dos (Démarrer > Exécuter > cmd > OK),
chkdsk c: /F replaces the letter of your card reader.

Thanks for the tips guys!

Since the corrupted files were playable inside the camera, I was able to save them, by recording the playback to a Atomos Shogun recorder.

The Atomos Shogun could not recognize any bigger signal than HD 1080p. That is odd, since it is marketed as a 4K recorder. Anyway, the client was happy that the shot was saved, even in HD.

I did further testing about the issue and will share info in the next post.

I CANT believe, I did not try that earlier!!

Why it seems a mundane Windows "scan and fix" could be the solution?

Sadly, I could not reproduce the original error, that happened to a 4.6K RAW footage.
But I did reproduce a 2K RAW 4:1 bad footage and it was fixed by Windows alright...

NOTE: Tried 2 different cards and 2 different card readers - same error. So it must be a Camera software issue.

I made a screenshot with the details:

Emilian Dechev wrote:I CANT believe, I did not try that earlier!!

Why it seems a mundane Windows "scan and fix" could be the solution?

Sadly, I could not reproduce the original error, that happened to a 4.6K RAW footage.
But I did reproduce a 2K RAW 4:1 bad footage and it was fixed by Windows alright...

NOTE: Tried 2 different cards and 2 different card readers - same error. So it must be a Camera software issue.

I made a screenshot with the details:

Yes I think it comes from the new firmware.I had the same mistake twice. are readable in the camera but not on the computer (Same error) "chkdsk" is currently the only solution that I found to open the file.

Hi, Windows 7 is not officially supported. Are you able to test on Win 8 or 10 and see if those problem clips are readable there? Since the issue is not always reproducible knowing if it's just Win 7 or not would really help. Thanks!

Sorry I cant find a Windows 10 PC around me right now. I could try a MAC though.

As long as the "scan and fix" thing is repairing the problem, its alright.

CaptainHook wrote:Hi, Windows 7 is not officially supported. Are you able to test on Win 8 or 10 and see if those problem clips are readable there? Since the issue is not always reproducible knowing if it's just Win 7 or not would really help. Thanks!

Wait, what? When has this become a thing?

Excerpt from BH's Ursa Mini page:

"System Requirements Mac OS X 10.9 or newer, Windows 7 (64-bit) or 8 (64-bit)"

Did you format in camera or on your PC?

Card always formatted in camera.

In the original case, the corrupted footage was 4.6K RAW, but I cannot reproduce that. It happens very rarely.

The cases that I can reproduce and seem to happen often, are 1920x1080 RAW 4:1 and 2048x1152 RAW 4:1

Esa Jussila wrote:Wait, what? When has this become a thing?

Excerpt from BH's Ursa Mini page:

"System Requirements Mac OS X 10.9 or newer, Windows 7 (64-bit) or 8 (64-bit)"

You can see the official information regarding OS support from our tech spec page.

CaptainHook wrote:Hi, Windows 7 is not officially supported.

Should that make a difference? Are these not just regular files on a standard formatted card?

(i.e. I could see there being a support issue regarding software, like Resolve, but not for simply transferring files from media to a computer. As long as the OS understands the formatting, it shouldn't matter from one file to the next.)

FW4.0 is all new including the file systems and there is a chance of a corner case that wouldn't bother Win 8 or 10. Not being supported means we don't officially test with it, and we haven't heard of this issue on Win 8 or 10. Since this is hard to reproduce we're trying to narrow down the variables. We don't even know if this is an issue with 4.0 or something else yet.

Hi,
I was shooting in 4K RAW today (usually i shooting Full HD Prores 422) with my ursa mini 4K. When i want to copy/paste from my Lexar 128GB 3400x to my computer the all DNG folders one message tell me that some DNG folder are corrupted and i cant acces this folders. Another DNG folders are OK. DaVinci 12.5 could read me all DNG folder but my Windows Explorer not allow me to copy/paste few DNG folders.I received a message to checking disk and i choise the "Automatically fix file system error". The windows with this cheking disk was freeze. After my PC go in to the sleep and then power on....surprise! All DNG folders are available and i could copy/paste all DNG folders. With 3.3 firmware version i never have this problem. Now i use firmware 4.0 general release.
What to learn of this?What happens?

The same problem occured on Windows 10 Pro. Confirmed. Tested on RAW 4:1

Hi guys,

Ursa Mini 4k here. Just had this corrupted RAW files issue. I shot some low light tests at home and after I plugged the card in my machine PC (Windows 10 Pro) it recognised all files (including bunch of different ProRes codecs and resolutions) except 3 which were shot in 4k RAW Lossless and showed up as corrupted (empty folders). There are total of 5 Lossless RAW files shot. Shots 1 and 2 (RAW) appear and playback just fine. All shots are playing back fine in camera.. of course.

After I tried to do some online searching on the issue I stumbled upon this thread. While reading through the comments I saw a workaround by letting Windows scan and fix the card. I gave it a try and indeed it fixed it. All 3 RAW folders now showing up with respective .dng content inside. So far so good.

When I opened DaVinci and went to the folder containing all the footage however, it showed me these 3 (now "fixed") raw files as folders and not as single video file you can preview and all. When you open each separate folder it contains 4-5 clips + the audio file. First clip starts at the beginning of the shot conitnued by the second, third etc. Like a sequence of separate video files making up the scene/shot instead of the single .dng's or a single video file. If you line them up one after another in the Edit timeline and playback, they plays back fine as one shot. That's DaVinci.

When imported into Premiere all 5 4k RAW Lossless clips show up correctly as a single video files. When played back though there is a red screen blink on 3-4 places in those 3 clips. I guess it occurs where the clips are split when viewed in DaVinci. So while they now appear correctly in Windows, those 3 files are not usable and are corrupted.

The footage was taken with 2 cards inserted in camera. Haven't tried it with only one yet. This is the second time I get this corrupted RAW files issue but the first time I haven't had the time to check and deal with it.

Ursa Mini 4k
Firmware version - 4.0
CFast Card - 2 x Transcend CFX650 128GB
Cfast Reader - SanDisk Extreme PRO 2.0
Windows 10 Pro

Are there dropped frames? When you scan through the folders, do you notice missing .DNG frames?


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rick.lang wrote:Are there dropped frames? When you scan through the folders, do you notice missing .DNG frames?


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Now that I checked the numeration of the files yes there are indeed.

Yesterday I had the exact same problem.
6 corrupted clips, with the same windows message and 0 bytes of information inside the folders.
I use Windows 10 and clips where a mixture of 4.6 K Raw 4:1 25 fps and 2K Raw 4:1 120 fps.
My CFast card is Biwin 3400 256Gb (I formated the card early in the day before start shooting, always in camera)

I don´t know yet if it is possible to read them in camera.
Later at home I will try Emilian Dechev´s tip. Thanks a lot.

Ignacio, were the cards formatted in exFAT? Was the Mini on release 4.2 of the firmware? Did the clips playback in camera?


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rick.lang wrote:Ignacio, were the cards formatted in exFAT? Was the Mini on release 4.2 of the firmware? Did the clips playback in camera?


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Hi Rick, back home I can explain it more precisely. Yes they were formatted in exFAT, with 4.2 firmware. The clips playback in camera well.

All corrupted clips are 2K Raw 4:1 120 fps

Now when I´ve inserted the card in the CFast reader a messagge from Windows 10 saying there is a problem with some files and if I want to fix it.

Corrupted clips are 6 between 48 (the rest are 4.6k 25fps except 3 2K 120 fps wich are fine. Corrupted clips are all 2K 120 fps). After some attempts now I can read three of the clips in the computer. They are no complet indeed, in Davinci Resolve those three clips appairs as folders with some subclips and an audio file inside. I've tried CHKDSK /R and /F.

And yet all these clips are interpreted correctly and playback in camera completely? If that's true, the fault is not with the media card or the camera recording functions. Agree?


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Ignacio, in camera menu, was the "stop record if frame drops" function ON or OFF?

If the card is not fixed by Windows "scan and fix", then there is a good chance you have missing frames. If you enable that function in camera, at least your recording will stop on such unfortunate occurrences.

rick.lang wrote:And yet all these clips are interpreted correctly and playback in camera completely? If that's true, the fault is not with the media card or the camera recording functions. Agree?


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well, it's the first time I´ve got this problem, it is supposed Windows 10 is fully supported so communication between camera and Operative System must be right. Just I would like to know the cause to avoid the problem in the future. Now I will try to read the card in another computer so I can access to all the clips.

Emilian Dechev wrote:Ignacio, in camera menu, was the "stop record if frame drops" function ON or OFF?

If the card is not fixed by Windows "scan and fix", then there is a good chance you have missing frames. If you enable that function in camera, at least your recording will stop on such unfortunate occurrences.

Before I had it enable, but after updating to the last firmware I hadn´t. Sure I will do it again. Thank you Emilian

Emilian Dechev wrote:Ignacio, in camera menu, was the "stop record if frame drops" function ON or OFF?

If the card is not fixed by Windows "scan and fix", then there is a good chance you have missing frames. If you enable that function in camera, at least your recording will stop on such unfortunate occurrences.

Hi, i have same problem with my ursa mini 4K when i shooting RAW for a commercial. I use 2 Lexar CFast 2.0 128 GB 3400X. I dont see nothing attention message (!) from camera how ursa mini manual say. After i have used Windows "scan and fix" function, DaVinci read me the RAW seqvence not like a single movie, it split in 2-4 movie with drop frames. How i can recovery with Lexar recovery the drop frames and make a single movie wihout dropf frames?
If i activate the "stop record if frame drops" function then if i have a single frame drops during the record the camera automatically stop the rec?I want to know if i have problems with drop frame when i shooting not when i copy/paste the card in computer. It too let then and i lose a lot of money if i must to shooting again the scene.

Hello! I know it sound crazy but i think my ursa mini hates the trains!!! I have problems with corrupted files when i shooting RAW...in train. Its a second shooting in train for a commercial when i have big trouble with drop frames. I have activate the "stop record inf drop frame" but i have same problems. When i shooting in another location (house, exterior, etc) i dont have troubles. What happend? What black magic do it my ursa mini in train?Somebody could give me a rational explanation?

Michael, just a guess:
If it is a train powered by electricity maybe there is a problem with strong electric fields?

Robert Niessner wrote:Michael, just a guess:
If it is a train powered by electricity maybe there is a problem with strong electric fields?

No, was a Diesel engine. But what kind of camera is ursa mini if can not shooting RAW in a train?Supose the electric field is the problem: then why i can shooting in train UHD 422 without issues? Why just RAW file have problems?

As I wrote, Michael, it was just a guess.

Writing an UHD 422 ProRes serial stream is certainly less demanding on the controller hardware and the Cfast2.0 cards then writing small RAW DNG single files.

I would try systematically to circle in the problem. Did RAW recording drop frames all the time regardless the location in the train? Did it work outside nearby the train? Was the train moving and if yes did that impose vibrations to the camera (maybe something is lose inside)? Then maybe this can be replicated in a moving car?

Even if it was a Diesel engine, did you have the powerlines above the track?

Was there a cell tower in short distance? Strong radio waves could also impose problems to camera electronics.

Robert Niessner wrote:
I would try systematically to circle in the problem. Did RAW recording drop frames all the time regardless the location in the train? Did it work outside nearby the train? Was the train moving and if yes did that impose vibrations to the camera (maybe something is lose inside)? Then maybe this can be replicated in a moving car?

Even if it was a Diesel engine, did you have the powerlines above the track?

Was there a cell tower in short distance? Strong radio waves could also impose problems to camera electronics.

I used 2 cfast 2.0 Lexar 128GB 3400X and both have same error. I shooted very short RAW 4K clips (max 30 sec each) and not all clips have drop frames. For example from 42 clips 11 clips have this issues. Its enough to compromise my project. This happend in 2 different day, so its not a coincidence. When i shoot near the train i dont have any error. Yes, the train is moving and the tripod vibration going to camera also. But why just some RAW clips are compromised and another dont? I lose many money with this project because ursa mini 4K make black magic in the train. I see that another ursa mini 4K have same problem and dont shooting in train. https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55305
Captain Hook, please leave a comment about my problem!

Guys, a diesel train is powered by electricity! The Diesel engine runs a very large generator, which in turn powers all of the train's systems, including the electrical traction motors that make the train go. This is a high voltage system, so pleanty if room for electrical interference.
Cheers