Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

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James Adams

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Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 6:03 pm

Right now on almost every shoot we are noticing moire on all types of clothing. We have been shooting with different lenses, both in ultra HD and 4.6k and we still see the pattern occurring in almost every shoot. We shooting in pro-res format 422.

Do you consistently see moire on your shoots? Other than shooting out of focus, and removing the offending clothing, any way to avoid this?

What is disappointing for us, is this is happening with a variety of clothing types, and on clothes that don't have any visible fine patterns. I've many more examples and moire is over all the clothing, but I've magnified a couple specific areas.

One big surprise was to find moire on the officers black uniform.
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rick.lang

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Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 3:51 am

Mosaic Engineering has developed a generation 3 OLPF designed for the URSA Mini cameras.

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thomas bruegger

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 5:02 am

havent seen much moiree on my shots, but your examples make me want to test this. im strugling more with fpn in dark areas.
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VicHarris

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 5:40 am

10-20 in chroma NR and have a beer.
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Dan Shay

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 1:49 pm

The blue shirt is hitting the moire sweet spot of the 4.6k, so increase the relative frequency of the shirt by moving away, or lower it by moving closer. Experiment with zoom, crop modes and focal lengths. Shooting a HD monitor at about half the field of view will produce moire. You can practice techniques of eliminating moire with a monitor.
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Andrew Walldez

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 4:55 pm

These look great btw.
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Philippe Metro

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 4:59 pm

I had the same issue with UM4K.
It was a pain to get rid of it. Resolve NR didn't help much. What worked the best for me was to roto the parts that needed it, and then apply two passes of Neat Video with different settings.

Can't wait the OLPF. I think those cameras shouldn't leave factory without one.
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Krishna Pada

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 5:45 pm

Dan Shay wrote:The blue shirt is hitting the moire sweet spot of the 4.6k, so increase the relative frequency of the shirt by moving away, or lower it by moving closer. Experiment with zoom, crop modes and focal lengths. Shooting a HD monitor at about half the field of view will produce moire. You can practice techniques of eliminating moire with a monitor.


Didn't understand a thing. What you said is about ccd video cameras, right?
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David Chapman

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 6:22 pm

Nice shots!
I'm actually more interested in the fly on her arm...
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Dan Shay

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 7:58 pm

Krishna Pada wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:The blue shirt is hitting the moire sweet spot of the 4.6k, so increase the relative frequency of the shirt by moving away, or lower it by moving closer. Experiment with zoom, crop modes and focal lengths. Shooting a HD monitor at about half the field of view will produce moire. You can practice techniques of eliminating moire with a monitor.


Didn't understand a thing. What you said is about ccd video cameras, right?


Moving the camera toward the subject lowers its relative frequency(resolution). If you move away from your subject, your lens limits the frequencies hitting the sensor. To illustrate, I shot a window screen from 7.2 feet with no moire. Same screen 8.4 feet with moire and again at 13 feet with no moire. Focal length is the same on all.
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rick.lang

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 9:29 pm

David Chapman wrote:Nice shots!
I'm actually more interested in the fly on her arm...


David, did you have a conclusion to be made regarding your observation of the fly?


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James Adams

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 11:27 pm

Dan Shay wrote:The blue shirt is hitting the moire sweet spot of the 4.6k, so increase the relative frequency of the shirt by moving away, or lower it by moving closer. Experiment with zoom, crop modes and focal lengths. Shooting a HD monitor at about half the field of view will produce moire. You can practice techniques of eliminating moire with a monitor.


This is great advice.. We'll give this a shot. Thank you.
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James Adams

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 11:45 pm

So I reached out to the support team at Blackmagic. They asked me to reproduce the moire and send them a sequence of DNG's with the camera doing a slow pan.

Here's the response today.
"In discussing this with my colleagues, it seems that since we do use CMOS sensors, that moire is to be expected in certain situations. One way to avoid it on your finished product would be to oversample your footage meaning you would shoot in something like 4.6K and finish in 2K or HD. Some customers also choose to use an Optical Low Pass Filter, which is known to help avoid this from happening."

So basically until there is an OLPF for this camera, we just need to deal with it. We have been shooting in 4.6k and outputting in 1080 (the same examples from this thread) and that doesn't get rid of the rainbow moire.

Then they referenced this thread in the forum as a place for more information....

"Check out this Forum thread regarding moire for information on what other customers are doing to avoid it.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57589 "
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostThu Aug 03, 2017 9:55 pm

Hi,

I am having the same exact problem. I had a few different people on camera and this was happening on most of the shots. I tried physically moving the camera, different focal lengths, and this helped sometimes, but mostly it was impossible to get out. I have tested this at 4.6K RAW, UHD Pro-Res, 30 FPS, 60 FPS, different lenses, problem still there. This is a major problem if you are shooting a lot of interviews / corporate type videos.

By the way, the Mosaic OLPF is not available to ship. I attempted to order it and didn't hear from the company, called them and they informed me there was some problem and they weren't fulfilling orders. It's unfortunate, as it seems this from their demo videos that it corrects this exact problem.

Examples:

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

I'm sorry to say this, but no OLPF is BM's philosophy.
So, either get a Red/Arri/Younameit (but not a Sony!) or wait for the Mosaic filter.

A mild diffusion filter may help in the meantime.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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John Brawley

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSat Aug 05, 2017 8:31 pm

James Adams wrote:So basically until there is an OLPF for this camera, we just need to deal with it. We have been shooting in 4.6k and outputting in 1080 (the same examples from this thread) and that doesn't get rid of the rainbow moire.



http://store.mosaicengineering.com/VAF- ... _p_46.html

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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Aug 06, 2017 3:33 am

My technique for reducing/eliminating the rainbow (but it doesn't get rid of the pattern.



It's very verbose, so I apologize in advance.

You could get similar results with colored noise reduction like Vic mentioned, but that's harder on your GPU than this technique.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostSun Aug 06, 2017 4:37 pm


Have you tested it on the 4.6K JB? If so, do you recommend it?
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Aug 07, 2017 3:07 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:

Have you tested it on the 4.6K JB? If so, do you recommend it?


Why doesn't Blackmagic Design put OLPFs in their cameras?

Morie on clothing from Blackmagic cameras is a serious issue that doesn't get the attention it deserves. Besides this tread created by James Adams, how many thorougher tests have been made by filmmakers, least of all the many "reviews" and "demos" of the Ursa Mini and other Blackmagic cameras, that don't actually test the camera.

I had shocking moire issues on all types of clothing with my BMCC 2.5K, until I spent $600 and bought an OLPF from Mosaic Engineering. The OLPF for the Ursa Mini currently costs $495 USD.

When people are considering buying a Blackmagic Design camera, moire on clothing is an additional issue to be aware of as well as a hidden extra cost and inconvenience many people probably don't know about.
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rick.lang

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Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Aug 07, 2017 6:10 am

I believe Grant Petty mentioned in an interview related to the BMCC that it was intentional not to include an OLPF so that the image captured would be as sharp as possible in contrast to other cameras that included the filter but resulted in a potentially softer image. Who knows, one day they may include it by default or make optional parts like RED.


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Stefan Markworth

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Aug 07, 2017 8:11 am

rick.lang wrote:I believe Grant Petty mentioned in an interview related to the BMCC that it was intentional not to include an OLPF so that the image captured would be as sharp as possible in contrast to other cameras that included the filter but resulted in a potentially softer image. Who knows, one day they may include it by default or make optional parts like RED.


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In all honesty that type of quote sounds more like an excuse to me rather than a genuine reason.

What's the point of an idealised version of 'sharp' if the footage is contaminated by moire, especially moire on clothing?

Yes it might be good to have an OLPF in a camera that can be switched on and off, however since I installed the Mosaic Engineering OLPF in my BMCC, I choose to leave it installed. Otherwise there is such a high risk that filming shots with most types of clothing, or any other tight textures, will be ruined by moire. Footage without moire is far more important to me than a slight loss in sharpness.

The BMCC was the first camera Blackmagic Design released. There could be some argument that Blackmagic was finding its way at that time. However I still consider it wrong to release a digital video camera, least of all one called a "Cinema Camera", when it has the shocking moire issues that the BMCC does. Now four years later it is very disappointing that moire on clothing is still an issue with Blackmagic Design's newest camera, and that additional cost and hassle is needed to buy a solution from a third party provider.
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostMon Aug 07, 2017 11:07 am

An OLPF has to be optimized for a sensor and therefor it is a long and difficult development. There is a reason why it took Mosaic Engineering so long to finally come up with a solution and even then they had a revised filter. And they are a company specialized into developing OLPFs.

Blackmagic did cut costs by not having an OLPF in their cameras.

While I had several problems with my BMCC and moire I have found that it is a much lesser problem with my UM46k after having shot dozens of interviews with it. This is just me, but I can only remember one time having a problem with moire.

BTW, a different demosaicing algorithm would also help to suppress or even avoid moire:
viewtopic.php?p=352842#p352842
viewtopic.php?p=352844#p352844
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Aug 08, 2017 1:15 am

BTW, the Mosaic OLPF isn't out yet. No word on an exact date but I'm getting one once they drop. I'll be getting one with the IR protection.
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Aug 08, 2017 3:13 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:BTW, the Mosaic OLPF isn't out yet. No word on an exact date but I'm getting one once they drop. I'll be getting one with the IR protection.


Yep, i wait my BMMCC filter almost 2 months. Time to time they send me a status update messages. Last week i got this:

In June, we undertook to diversify our selection of vendors involved with producing our filters' optical layers, in order to make our own production capabilities more responsive, and improve our delivery times. Unfortunately, this has led to some significant unexpected delays recently with our supply of the optics for the Blackmagic MFT filter which you have ordered.

This morning our supplier has informed us that they expect to be able to ship our current batch of production parts, early next week. This means that at the present time, we would expect to be able to complete our own assembly work and ship your order to you, in about two weeks from now. I regret to have to give you this news of additional delay, but this is our production situation currently.
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Aug 08, 2017 12:41 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Have you tested it on the 4.6K JB? If so, do you recommend it?


I haven't used the OLPF filter, but they seem to have good reports from users for their older versions on BMD cameras.

I personally never get caught by this. You tend to find with a 4.6K sensor supersampling means it just doesn't show up as much as it will on lower resolution cameras.



Stefan Markworth wrote:
Why doesn't Blackmagic Design put OLPFs in their cameras?

Morie on clothing from Blackmagic cameras is a serious issue that doesn't get the attention it deserves. Besides this tread created by James Adams, how many thorougher tests have been made by filmmakers, least of all the many "reviews" and "demos" of the Ursa Mini and other Blackmagic cameras, that don't actually test the camera.

I had shocking moire issues on all types of clothing with my BMCC 2.5K, until I spent $600 and bought an OLPF from Mosaic Engineering. The OLPF for the Ursa Mini currently costs $495 USD.

When people are considering buying a Blackmagic Design camera, moire on clothing is an additional issue to be aware of as well as a hidden extra cost and inconvenience many people probably don't know about.


I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to design an OLPF.

It's also a HIGHLY subjective process. You're putting a PERMANENT diffusion filter into your optical path. To find the best trade off between maintaining resolution and reducing moire, requires many many iterative steps. It's taken Mosaic YEARS to get to where they are now and they are still refining it.

And for as many that say they don't want moire, there are as many that will say they want maximum sharpness. In some side by sides I've seen people say the Ursa 4.6 seems "sharper" than a higher resolution RED camera.

Some users prefer that to a "baked" in diffusion from an OLPF.

RED tout the fact they have different versions of their OLPF optimized for different scenarios. Because every OLPF is a compromise, favouring one thing over another. https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/articles/217962008

BMD have always had a minimal approach. No processing no noise reduction on the signal path etc that you don't know about. It's the same with their optical chain. No OLPF means you're getting everything form the sensor, moire and all.

A lot of still cameras for the past few years advertise that they DO NOT have an OLPF as a feature worthy of advertising ! You can even buy model variants of Nikon stills cameras that simply have it removed as a model differentiator. (the Nikon 800 vs the 800E)

They have made it possible to allow a after market OLPF's for those that feel they need it, but there really hasn't been the demand for BMD to release one, or I'm pretty sure they would have done one by now.

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Stefan Markworth

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 8:16 am

John Brawley wrote:I personally never get caught by this.
John I remember you saying something similar about the moire issues on the BMCC. The moire on clothing actually is a serious problem for anyone who owns that camera, who films people wearing clothes and any other textures similar to the weave of fabric, and who has waited patiently, possibly years, to buy an OLPF from Mosaic Engineering.

James Adams clearly wrote;
James Adams wrote:What is disappointing for us, is this is happening with a variety of clothing types, and on clothes that don't have any visible fine patterns. I've many more examples and moire is over all the clothing, but I've magnified a couple specific areas.

John Brawley wrote:It's also a HIGHLY subjective process.
Is it really? Do you consider the images that James Adams and Joseph McDonald have posted in this thread, and the moire in them, as desirable let alone acceptable?

John Brawley wrote:And for as many that say they don't want moire, there are as many that will say they want maximum sharpness.
Yes, the question of what is an acceptable level sharpness is a subjective issue, however there is nothing subjective about moire artifacts on clothing. What type of cinematographer chooses hyper sharpness and is OK with the resulting moire artifacts on clothing? Maybe they are shooting landscapes and naked people.

John Brawley wrote: It's taken Mosaic YEARS to get to where they are now and they are still refining it.
Yes I know. I quickly discovered the moire on clothing fabric after buying my BMCC in early 2013. Within weeks I wrote to Mosaic Engineering asking them to tell me when I could buy an OLPF from them. I wasn't able to get an OLPF from them until June 2016. Do I wish I had bought a different camera in early 2013 that didn't have clothing moire issues, yes.

John Brawley wrote:They have made it possible to allow a after market OLPF's for those that feel they need it, but there really hasn't been the demand for BMD to release one, or I'm pretty sure they would have done one by now.
There have been numerous threads in this forum about the problems of moire on BMD cameras. In this forum "Moire" has been written at least 873 times and there are 18 pages listing links to threads where the word appears. The problems of BMD cameras with moire also appear in may posts and articles elsewhere.

What is BMD thinking? They either test the camera and see the moire on clothing and say, "oh that doesn't matter hopefully no one notices, at least the image is hyper sharp" or worse still they don't pick it up in tests and don't realise how much of a problem it really is, until customers test their finished cameras for them.

Ultimately I don't think it helps BMD make plans for their camera designs if people down play genuine serious issues with their cameras.

Whenever I think about a digital video camera that causes Moire on the fabric of clothing in its footage, I can't believe just how ridiculous that is. It shouldn't have been and issue in 2012-2013 and it is definitely an issue that should have been resolved four years later in BMD's newer cameras.
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rick.lang

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 10:31 am

Well thought out arguments, Stefan. Compared to the RED system that offers a few options for OLPF, BMD has never hinted that a built-in OLPF was in the plans. But that was their approach to built-in ND filters too until the URSA Mini Pro's IRND. So you never know what the future will bring.

There are a lot of people buying their 'cinema' cameras that are not using them in 'controlled' shoots with a wardrobe dept and tests done on all the production 'costumes' under various shooting scenarios. Let's see, that must account for less than 1% of actual use cases. But many people nevertheless manage nearly all the time to get good footage. Not a perfect solution, but not always a disaster if you can adjust for it in your scene (such as by changing your distance, your lens, your angle, your light, your filter).


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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 12:50 pm

Stefan Markworth wrote:
John Brawley wrote:I personally never get caught by this.
John I remember you saying something similar about the moire issues on the BMCC. The moire on clothing actually is a serious problem for anyone who owns that camera, who films people wearing clothes and any other textures similar to the weave of fabric, and who has waited patiently, possibly years, to buy an OLPF from Mosaic Engineering.


OK, let's break it down.

Here are the TV Drama series I've worked on that have used BMD cameras.

Puberty Blues Season 1 and 2 (17 eps)
Offspring Season 5 (13 eps)
Offspring Season 6 (13 eps)
Hiding Season 1 (8 eps)
Party Tricks Season 1 (6 eps)
Underbelly Squizzy (6 eps)
Hunters (13 eps)
The Beautiful Lie (6 eps)
Beaches (Telemovie)
The Warriors ( all 100% BMD camearas )
Queen Of The South (13 eps) (at least 30% of this is BMD)

So that's more than 90 hours of BROADCAST TV Drama.

If I say that I haven't been caught by moire from a BMD camera, I'm speaking about that from the perspective of having used these cameras on the above series. One of those series, Puberty Blues, is set in 1975. If there was ever going to be an issue it would be that show.

In the last few years I have had serious problems with moire on one show, where it was bad enough to fail a tech check.

It was for a series called "Hiding". The moire was so bad, we had to do a very expensive post fix to try and minimise the problem. There were problematic shots in most episodes. Would you be surprised to hear though, that all the moire problem shots were shot with a Sony F55.

The Sony F55 HAS an OLPF. (in fact it has two options ) And yet moire was a problem.


Stefan Markworth wrote:James Adams clearly wrote;
James Adams wrote:What is disappointing for us, is this is happening with a variety of clothing types, and on clothes that don't have any visible fine patterns. I've many more examples and moire is over all the clothing, but I've magnified a couple specific areas.

John Brawley wrote:It's also a HIGHLY subjective process.
Is it really? Do you consider the images that James Adams and Joseph McDonald have posted in this thread, and the moire in them, as desirable let alone acceptable?



You're misrepresenting what I was saying.

The process of designing a filter to remove moire to everyone's satisfaction is a highly subjective process.

You're bitching about it waiting years for Moasiac to produce an after market OLPF filter. Why do you think that it's taken them so long ?

Designing an OLPF is a highly subjective process. You have to trade off image sharpness against reducing moire. It's not a simple "whack a OLPF" filter in and you're done.

You have to come up with a formula that works on multiple focal lengths, with multiple frequencies of texture, across different lens and shooting apertures

It's a known truism that your diffusion filter should change when using beauty diffusion in front of the lens with focal length. As you go longer, you tend to need stronger or heavier diffusion, and as you go wider, you tend to use less.

To design a filter that can cover all those scenarios and not just trash the whole image is what's hard. It requires a highly iterative manufacturing process of making a certain formula, trying it out, evaluating SUBJECTIVELY if you're loosing too much and then adjusting the formula and making a new sample and starting again.

I'm not as all denying that you will get moire and that in certain scenarios it won't bite you in the arse.

I was saying that to get a good solution that works in every scenario is next to impossible. For every user that has a OLPF setting that makes them happy for moire, there will be users that don't want to loose that level of sharpness. It's a variable scale, not a YES / NO scenario. By reducing sharpness you reduce the chance of moire. The more you reduce the sharpness, the less chance you have of moire.

I've had problems with a camera that had a factory designed OLPF, the Sony F55 I mentioned earlier.

RED have had major problems with their OLPFs, constantly. And they still suffer Moire with an OLPF too. Feel free to go look on REDUSER and search using the same parameters. I'm in pre now for a new series for FOX and something I've experienced with set decorators and costume designers many times is the look of relief when you tell them you aren't shooting RED. Because they hate having to design fabrics and design patterns around moire too.

I am sympathetic, but the solution isn't really as perfect you're think it is.


Stefan Markworth wrote:
John Brawley wrote:And for as many that say they don't want moire, there are as many that will say they want maximum sharpness.
Yes, the question of what is an acceptable level sharpness is a subjective issue, however there is nothing subjective about moire artifacts on clothing. What type of cinematographer chooses hyper sharpness and is OK with the resulting moire artifacts on clothing? Maybe they are shooting landscapes and naked people.


Once again, I have many hours of broadcast TV, including a whole entire TV drama series that says otherwise. I guess I'm they type of cinematographer you're trying to sledge ?

That is the truth of my experience.


Stefan Markworth wrote:
John Brawley wrote: It's taken Mosaic YEARS to get to where they are now and they are still refining it.
Yes I know. I quickly discovered the moire on clothing fabric after buying my BMCC in early 2013. Within weeks I wrote to Mosaic Engineering asking them to tell me when I could buy an OLPF from them. I wasn't able to get an OLPF from them until June 2016. Do I wish I had bought a different camera in early 2013 that didn't have clothing moire issues, yes.


You're ignoring what I've already said. It can take years to perfect a good OLPF. That's how long it takes. It's self evident that the company that specialises in making them took so long to make one.

Stefan Markworth wrote:
John Brawley wrote:They have made it possible to allow a after market OLPF's for those that feel they need it, but there really hasn't been the demand for BMD to release one, or I'm pretty sure they would have done one by now.
There have been numerous threads in this forum about the problems of moire on BMD cameras. In this forum "Moire" has been written at least 873 times and there are 18 pages listing links to threads where the word appears. The problems of BMD cameras with moire also appear in may posts and articles elsewhere.


No doubt. Go do the same search please on REDUSER and come back and tell me the same numbers.

I'm not saying it isn't an issue that comes up. But in reality, depending on the style of shooting, if it really was the BBQ stopper that you're inferring it is, I'm pretty sure no one would be using the cameras, they wouldn't get to be releasing new models that seem to still be selling very well.

Do the cameras suffer Moire ? Yes.

Is it a showstopper ? That's only something each individual can answer.


Stefan Markworth wrote:What is BMD thinking? They either test the camera and see the moire on clothing and say, "oh that doesn't matter hopefully no one notices, at least the image is hyper sharp" or worse still they don't pick it up in tests and don't realise how much of a problem it really is, until customers test their finished cameras for them.

Ultimately I don't think it helps BMD make plans for their camera designs if people down play genuine serious issues with their cameras.

Whenever I think about a digital video camera that causes Moire on the fabric of clothing in its footage, I can't believe just how ridiculous that is. It shouldn't have been and issue in 2012-2013 and it is definitely an issue that should have been resolved four years later in BMD's newer cameras.


Isn't it better to have the choice ? You're preaching an OLPF for everyone, but I don't think everyone feels the same. Philosophically, in digital stills cameras for the last few years the trend is to NOT have an OLPF and to deal with moire by other means.

Some people even remove their OLPF in other cameras http://blog.planet5d.com/2012/04/does-t ... i-sharper/

I think having a choice is better. It just means you have to wait a little longer for your OLPF pure version because that's a reflection of how difficult it is to make these things.

Also, we've only been talking about the Mosaic VAF, but Hans Hijmering makes a version too for some cameras. http://mattscottvisuals.com/blog/2016/7 ... tamination

You can get in touch with him directly here http://hanshijmering.com/contact/

I haven't ever felt the need to get an OLPF for my BMD cameras. Clearly you feel differently. I don't think it's as cut and tried as you're implying. I just don't see moire happening in my work with these cameras, and by the way, my work has to pass pretty rigorous broadcast tech checks. That isn't just my subjective opinion. It's just not in the work I'm shooting. It just doesn't come up.

Yes we don't want moire, but many of us don't want dramatically less sharpness either and if the tradeoff is to occasionally get moire, then I think a lot of people are OK with that.


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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 1:13 pm

BTW, even the human eye with all its resolution and irregular distribution of rods can produce moire. I have just verified it myself: looking at a roof top with terracotta roof shingles, its pattern produces visible moire at a certain distance. Of course not a colored moire like with a demosaiced Bayer pattern sensor but a fluctuating pattern in the contrast itself.

Or if you are looking at a Siemens star pattern.
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 3:35 pm

I also have very recently seen moiré with my eyes, not the camera sensor, in an exterior setting. Didn't have the Mini 4.6K with me at the time.


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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 09, 2017 5:57 pm

I haven't had any real problems with my camer and moire really. If I see it in a monitor, I change the distance to the subjse but I think I've seen it maybe 2% of the times. I get the color moire sometimes but that takes 5 sec to pull out completely in Resolve.
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 1:53 pm

Pretty sure this is Hans, who I mentioned earlier.

http://rawlite.com/

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 4:42 pm

John Brawley wrote:Pretty sure this is Hans, who I mentioned earlier.

http://rawlite.com/

JB

I've got one of these from Hans for my BMPCC recently and I'm happy with it so far.

Is Hans part of Mosaic Engineering, or is his product separate entirely?
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 4:35 am

On the fence about which olpf to get and now I don't know if I should get one at all. I currently don't have an IR cut and I was going to put that money into the olpf.

I have the micro, from what I've seen/ heard the rawlite is sharper but the moire reduction isn't as effective and the Mosaic is softer with heavier moire reduction and easier to install, apparently the Mosaic also has a better shim. Both are a very similar price and with such a low resolution I don't like the idea of losing sharpness but I also don't like the idea of opening up the sensor.

I really like the idea of not having to change the IR cut with each lens change and not worrying about moire is a great bonus.

With all your infinite wisdom and experience what should I go with?
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 11:53 am

John Brawley wrote:In the last few years I have had serious problems with moire on one show, where it was bad enough to fail a tech check.

It was for a series called "Hiding". The moire was so bad, we had to do a very expensive post fix to try and minimise the problem. There were problematic shots in most episodes. Would you be surprised to hear though, that all the moire problem shots were shot with a Sony F55.

The Sony F55 HAS an OLPF. (in fact it has two options ) And yet moire was a problem.


That's what I was referring to with my statement above. Some people deliberately use the 'wrong' one to soften faces. And, I can only second the notion that this is highly subjective, so it's difficult to give a clear recommendation for one or the other of the two filters. When testing the Sony F3, A. Roberts, testing cameras for the BBC was even jokingly saying, his camera was missing the OLPF completely (British humour, I suppose).

OTOH, Red, who was always quite conservative with their filtering, got mocked when they came out with their Red One, like: "That's supposed to be 4K? It looks so soft!". Maybe BM wanted to avoid that? It's less of an issue with higher resolutions, BTW, since you are approaching pixel densities where many lenses start to struggle with perfect sharpness. Red is only offering very well adapted OLPFs, which in my experience always suppress moiré in real life scenes. You can provoke some color moiré with a good lens and test charts, though. If Red would have shifted the frequency of the OLPF to a point where even color moiré is completely suppressed on a Bayer sensor, they'd need to limit their cameras to half the measured resolution they have now. They offer OLPFs with a higher frequency limit for monochrome sensors only.

Very few people complain that the 42 mph Sony A7RII has moiré, even those with sharp glass. But then it becomes more obvious with moving images.

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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostWed Aug 30, 2017 8:46 pm

After a year of use, I was bitten hard for the first time by moiré from the Ursa Mini 4.6K on an interview the other day. The subject was wearing a solid colored shirt, but it was faded just enough that the pattern of threads in it was visible and this is what triggered the moiré.

This still here is what it looked like with a simple grade on the clip (note: download or open the image in a new tab to see the full resolution):
UM46_moire.jpg
UM46_moire.jpg (542.37 KiB) Viewed 11151 times

It's not too crazy as a still, but in motion the moiré is just insane and pokes you right in the eyes.

This is a link to a graded ProRes clip. Be sure to download for viewing as the compressed preview on Google drive doesn't really show what's going on:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpcOWJxeGNTWnZ1TGM

With a bunch of keys, windows and some other tricks, I was able to reduce the appearance of the moiré, but the shirt is pushed right to the edge of the uncanny valley:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpcWG9ZZ2p2Xzhpcmc

Here's a link to a clip of the original ProRes HD (downscaled in camera from the full sensor, not windowed) captured in Film mode:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1bnfGXKHqpcOTZ4QTZPeE1IaVU
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Re: Moire on Ursa Mini 4.6k

PostThu Aug 31, 2017 4:38 am

Surprisingly ugly shirt from a source that one would think would be fine. Face is perfect.


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