No new Pocket...now what?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

MarcusWolschon

  • Posts: 411
  • Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:59 pm

No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:13 pm

So, what was not announced at the NAB press conference was a replacement for the Pocket Cinema Camera.
12bit raw and 10bit prores instead of some MPEG profile paired with a great dynamic range are still great.
However 1080p as an aquisition format no longer is.
Still putting up with a noisy audio preamp after 4 years gets tiresome.
Large, fast cards have become more affordable and paired with some external power to match the runtime the life of the Pocket could be extended for a while. But not indefinately.
People who own their cameras instead of renting them are usually locked into a system by the lenses they have invested in.

What upgrade pathes exist for all these Pocket users
who have come to love the image it produces?

The Micro Cinema Camera is still only FullHD. So it's more of a downgrade. Loosing screen and controls.

The Micro Studio Camera requires a ton of expensive infrastructure that isn't mobile or handheld.

The various URSA, URSA Mini and URSA Mini Pro all have PL, B4 and EOS lens mounts and are not ment to be carried around in a pocket or bag just in case.

A non-Blackmagic choice would be the GH5 but it's 10bit footage can only be opened by the Resolve 14 studio version, it doesn't offer raw video at all and even the 400Mbps h.264 All-I update some time later will still only be half the data rate of Prores422HQ for 3840p25 . Currently it's about a quarter of it.
Last edited by MarcusWolschon on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 pm

The year is not over, just because there was not an announcement at NAB, doe not mean, that a new camera might be in the pipe line. BMhas taken a new tack, of not announcing a new product until it is actually available, as seen with the. Ew UrsaMini Pro, the ATEM HD and HD Studio Pro switchers.

So what this does mean, is there is not a new S16 camera right now. It does not mean that something might be in the works. BM is not going to repeat the problem they had with the Ursa and its 4.4K Turret upgrade.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

MarcusWolschon

  • Posts: 411
  • Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:59 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:20 pm

Pocket was announced at NAB 4 years ago.
Both Micro whee announced at NAB 2 years ago.
So it was reasonable to wait until this NAB.
But at some point everyone has to stop waiting.
Offline
User avatar

PaulDelVecchio

  • Posts: 776
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:33 am
  • Location: NY

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:23 pm

MarcusWolschon wrote:Pocket was announced at NAB 4 years ago.
Both Micro whee announced at NAB 2 years ago.
So it was reasonable to wait until this NAB. But not indefinately.


Then don't wait if you need something now. If you can wait, and are willing to, then I'm sure something is coming. As mentioned, BMD has a new (and in my opinion--- better) strategy of not announcing until it's shipping. I wouldn't expect to wait for tradeshows either. BMD now does live streams to announce products in addition to tradeshows.

At any rate, it's about what you need now. That's really for you to decide.
Paul Del Vecchio - Director/Producer
http://www.pauldv.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pdelvecchio814
http://www.facebook.com/pauldv
http://instagram.com/pdelv
Twitter: @pauldv
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:29 pm

Yes Paul, I see this as a new trend in BM marketing, no more waiting from announcement at the major trade shows to build interest, to final delivery, and the frustration the delays caused. Now, they have a product ready to go, then announce it, and start shipping the next day or two.

Building a prototype and demonstrating it is one thing, building a production run, with its inherent issues is another -- which BM has discovered. It is now comfortable enough with its market segment and what will sell, that they can let go of the pre-sale hype, and just build, promote and sell their product -- no more delays.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

PaulDelVecchio

  • Posts: 776
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:33 am
  • Location: NY

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:49 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes Paul, I see this as a new trend in BM marketing, no more waiting from announcement at the major trade shows to build interest, to final delivery, and the frustration the delays caused. Now, they have a product ready to go, then announce it, and start shipping the next day or two.

Building a prototype and demonstrating it is one thing, building a production run, with its inherent issues is another -- which BM has discovered. It is now comfortable enough with its market segment and what will sell, that they can let go of the pre-sale hype, and just build, promote and sell their product -- no more delays.


And this is the way it should be. So glad they've adopted this so we're not stuck waiting and hoping.
Paul Del Vecchio - Director/Producer
http://www.pauldv.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pdelvecchio814
http://www.facebook.com/pauldv
http://instagram.com/pdelv
Twitter: @pauldv
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Plus One Paul!
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 1:26 am

It doesn't take 4 years to introduce a new pocket, or at least a version with fixed preamp and software features, and new ports, touch screen and controls, even p50 fullhd, that could have been drone in the next NAB and would have made it better.

What somebody could do is make a modular system out of the studio, with LCD touch screen control back and batteries, the approximate size of an oversized pocket. BM didn't need to be the one to do it (but check the future of the product line first for compatibility). An external recorder manufacturer could do it, build in camera and lens control into their device. Great for any supported head. Is there such am external recorder out there?

I want this to be the company we thought it to be, not to treat us like this.

We wait to see what will be announced at the cinegear expo, but this expo is really the future where they should be releasing more video work cameras.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 1:56 am

Wayne, I use the Video Devices PixE 5 with my Micro camera's, especially the Micro Studio, add Phil's small remote for direct camera settings, and the PixE display is great, you can connect both HDMI and SDI to the
PixE, use the HDMI screen to set up camera via the menus, and switch to SDI for recording. You can pull two channels of audio from the camera, add two external audio inputs and record 4 tracks total of audio, all in sync with the video recording.

The PixE is not much bigger than the VA 5-inch, but the PixE will record UHD and full 4K in ProRes 444. You can place the PixE on top, or with a cage like the Wooden Camera Micro cage, behind the camera head, add BMs UrsaMini Grip, and you can go handheld, with a HD HDMI output from the PixE to a EVF.

The sensor readout time from the Pocket 4K is so fast (fastest in the RS lineup from BM) it almost seems like a global shutter. While it lacks Raw recording, its ProRes files are great, with nice color saturation. So for best results, you need to get the WB right at the start. Either Micro can be setup as a nice handheld camera, using the Ursa Mini grip, or on similar from third parties, like the WC wood grip. What is nice about the BM grip, it gives the Micro the Focus and Iris Push to set buttons from the Pocket camera, when using MFT Auto lenses.

I think the two Micro cameras are the update for the Pocket camera. What might be coming next is a new S16 camera incorporating both the Pocket formfactor in a larger body, with the 4K sensor and on board screen and built in recorder (from the VA 4K) for Raw and ProRes recordings.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:20 am

Thanks Denny, I have not heard of this one. Still, I don't want to spend nearly as much as a mini 4k to get it running, and I want full manual controls for everything,including the lens. What is this control of Phils, how good is it?
Offline

Gene Kochanowsky

  • Posts: 781
  • Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:11 am
  • Location: Tallahassee, FL
  • Warnings: 1

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:35 am

I can't help but think that BM is working on the PCC2, and it will be everything everyone hopes for. BM has learned from their past mistakes and will release no camera until it's ready to go and is shipping. I applaud this. They do not need a repeat of the UM4.7K.
Offline
User avatar

Frank Glencairn

  • Posts: 1553
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:07 am
  • Location: Germany

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:37 am

The Osmo with the raw camera would be the next best thing.
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

Set your zebras to 100%, ETTR and you're golden - and NO, you can't use TB as output for an external monitor, and you can't download the footy via TB ether.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:54 am

Gene, we obviously are not the highest priority. When you can embrace your not too much enemy, you are a good man.

They should still time some major things for shows though. A new Ursa for instance. This is the purchasing decision time. But they should have released the mini Pro, with some more features, at NAB if there were not new cameras, instead of a month out. With a few exclusive embargoed reviews for release on the day, and press preview test sessions for live first impressions news updates to their sites, with some more review cameras going out two day to trusted people. This is also the place for future pro video related cameras. People have fallen for the cinematography camera idea, because it makes more people feel more important, but it is a pain and in the real world not really needed 90% of the time. $10k-$100k level Eng cameras for $1k-$5k would be amazing, they are needed for most real world work,, and break the competition, adding prosumer feature sets, and stills features on the smaller cameras. Once broken, the competition can stop dogging BM and Red..
Offline
User avatar

Clayton Von Isaacs

  • Posts: 171
  • Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:43 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 3:30 am

My take on it - If the pocket's next version was dead they would have removed the original pocket from the page like they did the BMCC, BMPC and the URSA MAJOR. They were probably working the whole time to get the Mini Pro, Resolve panels, the failrlight panels, Ultimatte, and Resolve 14 ready. They had to streamline their lines and get one kick ass camera and other things to dominate all facets of post production. Now they will probably be working on whatever it is. It probably isn't dead just been on the back burner
Clayton Von Isaacs
daydreamersproductions.com
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1794
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 3:35 am

MarcusWolschon wrote:So, what was not announced at the NAB press conference was a replacement for the Pocket Cinema Camera.
12bit raw and 10bit prores instead of some MPEG profile paired with a great dynamic range are still great.
However 1080p as an aquisition format no longer is.


Is it really 4K that's lacking ?

Really ?

Really and truly that's the deal breaker ?

I'd choose ProRes and 12 bit files @ 1920 ANY day over 4K.

You want a 4K raw camera in the pocket body ?

And by the way, 95% of the world's TV drama production is still 1920.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:30 am

And 90% of em are still rubbish :)

You can shoot better Fullhd on a 4k sensor, especially if you tasks the 4k demosiac and demosiac and downres it properly, beat using non low pass filtered camera, as it helps with alaising.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:41 am

Clayton. they produce a vast amount of equipment. The pro is basically, technically, a more minor upgrade, to the mini 4.6k, its not a stretch, and they can have existing people on resolve panels and other stuff. I suspect, as you say, they are working on something and it might be at cine gear expo. Wherever it is what we want, or something else is another thing.

I think 8k is coming, but hope better low end options are coming.
Offline

MarcusWolschon

  • Posts: 411
  • Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:59 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:56 am

John Brawley wrote:
MarcusWolschon wrote:So, what was not announced at the NAB press conference was a replacement for the Pocket Cinema Camera.
12bit raw and 10bit prores instead of some MPEG profile paired with a great dynamic range are still great.
However 1080p as an aquisition format no longer is.


Is it really 4K that's lacking ?

Really ?

Really and truly that's the deal breaker ?

I'd choose ProRes and 12 bit files @ 1920 ANY day over 4K.

You want a 4K raw camera in the pocket body ?

And by the way, 95% of the world's TV drama production is still 1920.

JB


Yes, it is and I couldn't care less about TV.
There is no second chance for aquisition for anything that is not scenic.
Watching 8 year old SD gives me the creeps now.
(I'm also immensely enjoying doing FullHD crops.)
Offline
User avatar

Clayton Von Isaacs

  • Posts: 171
  • Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:43 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 6:09 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Clayton. they produce a vast amount of equipment. The pro is basically, technically, a more minor upgrade, to the mini 4.6k, its not a stretch, and they can have existing people on resolve panels and other stuff. I suspect, as you say, they are working on something and it might be at cine gear expo. Wherever it is what we want, or something else is another thing.

I think 8k is coming, but hope better low end options are coming.

I don't know about 8K. That is Red's game. They just got their 4K platform figured out. I think right now they are just trying to solidify it and hopefully get some films or shows shot with their camera. But if you look at their release today, it is trying to dominate the Post Production arena. They already hold the color correcting domination in Hollywood. I think they will be holding the editing soon. And now it is audio. It just seems to me that they have had their focus on that and maybe a new pocket is being worked on. They still need a 4K crash cam and the pocket was it for 2k. All I am saying is if they are abandoning it they would have taken it off the site like the other cams. The other cams had a need until the Ursa Mini Pro filled that section of their cameras. My guess is when they have a replacement for it then you will see it go away as that replacement fills the void.
Clayton Von Isaacs
daydreamersproductions.com
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 6:24 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Thanks Denny, I have not heard of this one. Still, I don't want to spend nearly as much as a mini 4k to get it running, and I want full manual controls for everything,including feresthe lens. What is this control of Phils, how good is it?


What do you mean by " full manual control". Use manual lenses or have direct control on the remote of focus and Iris on an auto lens? Phil's One Little Remote is just now shipping. Kim's remote is a little smaller and has direct control if MFT auto lenses, and he has a model with servo control of manual lenses.
Both remotes offer ISO, WB, and SA settings on the camera, and Iris, focus and zoom on auto lenses.

Yes, the PixE is around $1200 new, used ones pop up now and then, but this recorder/monitor will outlive several cameras, and is a good investment, more so than the camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 1:51 pm

Yeah Denny. I'd rather buy a used 4k mini faith the price of setup. It lacks the 50p 4k modes I want. Don't get me wrong, pretty nice equipment.

Where are these Phil's and Kim's remotes you talk about.

I want to do full fly by the wire manual control as well as push auto, and full auto. Remotes for that are useful, or a recording unit that does. Makes it into a well featured camera.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:14 pm

Clayton Von Isaacs wrote:I don't know about 8K. That is Red's game. They just got their 4K platform figured out. I think right now they are just trying to solidify it and hopefully get some films or shows shot with their camera. But if you look at their release today, it is trying to dominate the Post Production arena. They already hold the color correcting domination in Hollywood. I think they will be holding the editing soon. And now it is audio. It just seems to me that they have had their focus on that and maybe a new pocket is being worked on. They still need a 4K crash cam and the pocket was it for 2k. All I am saying is if they are abandoning it they would have taken it off the site like the other cams. The other cams had a need until the Ursa Mini Pro filled that section of their cameras. My guess is when they have a replacement for it then you will see it go away as that replacement fills the void.


8k is the market they are in. The market is moving that way, and it is the next format to sell new cameras for. Actually, 8k is preferable for 4k and 2k even if you never want to do an 8k delivery. It minimizes low pass filtering blur or aliasing when you down convert properly, giving a sharp image.
From the extra Bayer color sample points per pixel you can get more accurate colors and edging. Also you can extract frames for 8k stills, something I really want for wedding photography. Nokia did an 8k phone that rendered to fullhd and used it for good digital zoom. I'd be very happy if they introduced a 8k handheld that shot 4k protest 12bit+ and 8k raw stills at the same time using a new sensor.

Companies often are already working on the next product version by the time they release a product. So, so whatever happened to the 4.6k the next thing was probably already underway. If they don't, competition can take the lead. Kinefinity is steady in Europe. So, keeping the low end lead with great product keeps them on top. People rave about red, and helium is a great natural sensor, but the old Nokia 8k phone sensors were great to.
Offline
User avatar

josephrose

  • Posts: 127
  • Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:16 pm
  • Location: Philadelphia-ish

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 2:59 pm

John Brawley wrote:Is it really 4K that's lacking ?

Really ?


In the last year, do you most often shoot on cameras that are limited to 1080? Or 4K or better?
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:06 pm

8K comes with enormous requirements for media and post processing. Way ahead of its time for indie shooters. Sure, great for broadcast sports, but Cinema cameras, not so much.

Sharpness and detail as the end goal of a production? Again, that's only a small portion of commercial work that requires that if at all, and again not likely many indie shooters are there yet. I agree 4K is getting well established, but in the under $1,000 camera market, it can't be considered a requirement. That's where HD belongs and will give you great results for the needs of the majority.

Give up on sharpness for the major set of use cases that fall outside the categories I just mentioned. Create art. Create illusion. Create romance. Create horror. Create fear. Create joy. Create beauty. None of that cares a whit about sharpness.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 5:17 pm

Spot on Rick, and image resolution is more than HD, UHD or 4K. Bit depth and color sampling is more important. A 12/10-bit HD camera will outperform a UHD/4K 8-bit camera, as far as holding up to editing and co'or corrections. In the end, the higher bit rate image will look better. :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

Jason R. Johnston

  • Posts: 1577
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:05 am
  • Location: Harlingen, TX

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 6:40 pm

28 Days Later.

It's still the perfect illustration. Ugly SD images to support the idea of that terrible reality. Luscious 35mm Kodak film to show hope in the end. It's art. Storytelling trumps technical. Achieving great images means nothing if the audience isn't on board emotionally.
Jason R. Johnston
Fifty Oars Motion Pictures
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1794
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 7:02 pm

josephrose wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Is it really 4K that's lacking ?

Really ?


In the last year, do you most often shoot on cameras that are limited to 1080? Or 4K or better?


I use many cameras. Mostly the Alexa Classic of late, but pretty much all the majors have been through my set.

I see where you're going with this... supersampling....but the thing is, we're acquiring 1920 mostly these days.

The pocket is not an A camera. It's ( for me ) a speciality insert camera. One that matches beautifully to the alexas or whatever else I'm using.

If you want the pocket as an A camera and you think 4k is the deal breaker at $995 then good luck to you. I'd take 1920 with 12bits and RAW before 4k and 8bits if I was trying to make a living from images.

Name me a camera that does better than pocket right now at its price point in 1920 ? Then in 4k ?

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline

Craig Seeman

  • Posts: 343
  • Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:19 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 7:48 pm

What I'd want is an Ursa Micro. I don't think the Pocket form will work for what people say they want.
ND filters like the Mini Pro. 4K cDNG, A better screen. XLR inputs with a decent preamp. It'll still be MFT to keep the size down. A decent battery, probably a Sony compatible type but which one I'm not sure.
My guess it would look like Sony PXW-X70 or between that and their Z150. Or really like an FS5 but smaller.
Just as the MiniPro cost more than the Mini I think the new beast will cost a bit more than the Pocket does. They could use something at the $1995 price point.

Rather than promising at NAB and saying shipping in July and everyone going "yea sure we've heard that one" it'll be a live streamed event this summer, I'd think.
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 7:57 pm

I'm not sure why every time this conversation comes up people will say that 12 bit 1080p will trump 4K 8bit like that's the only options you have. Of course that statement is true, but as far as I know BMD doesn't make any 8bit cameras.
Why can't I have 4K 12bit 24/30p in a small form factor? And why does it have to be "Pocket" size, when larger will do? And why does it have to cost $999

I'm a predominantly gimbal shooter, trying to get the 4.6 to work in every situation with affordable gimbals is a choir (I've heard). I just want to move up my resolution to match the already awesome bit dept I'm working with now in a small form factor camera.

We all know what the compression from a gropro looks like. As soon as you zoom into any area like tress or leaves, it looks like a Van Gogh painting. And some of those high end 4K H.264 8bit cameras aren't any better.

And like stated earlier, most who are distributing in 1080p original shoot the footage in RAW/Prores 4K or even higher.

This is where the request of "Hey we really, really, really, love the Pocket/Micro cameras, but can you try to get us a 4K 16mm/M43 version sometime in the near future. Please" comes from.

And the tech seems to be there now, at least in cards speeds.
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 919
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:05 pm

So resolution, at the ultra-low budget end of the spectrum, where there's no money for much of anything -- who else is going to use a $995 A-camera?-- is somehow going to make all the difference between excellence and failure?

What ultra-low budget "content", specifically, is going to succeed at 4K (or 8K, for that matter), where it would fail at 1080p?

The idea that BMD, or any company, is somehow obliged to offer 4K at a price impossible to do 4K well is even stranger.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:14 pm

Yes, yes it is...
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:31 pm

John Paines wrote:So resolution, at the ultra-low budget end of the spectrum, where there's no money for much of anything -- who else is going to use a $995 A-camera?-- is somehow going to make all the difference between excellence and failure?

What ultra-low budget "content", specifically, is going to succeed at 4K (or 8K, for that matter), where it would fail at 1080p?

The idea that BMD, or any company, is somehow obliged to offer 4K at a price impossible to do 4K well is even stranger.


All the arguments you make could be used exactly the same pre "Pocket" or "2.5k" So I don't understand it.

Now one is demanding anything, and no one says it has to be low budget. We have all ready said we would be fine with a $2000 plus camera. Geez what's up with you guys?

All we want is the small sensor, Pocket Dynamic range, RAW recording, low frame rate 4k camera.

It's literally a slightly smaller version of the PC4K that shoots to newer UHS-II SD cards without the larger global lower DR sensor.
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:51 pm

Better yet let's take a time traveling trip to 5 years ago when 1080p was still king.

Now mind you this question would have been presented five years ago.

Hey, everyone! I love what BMD did with the recent release of the Cinema Camera 2.5K.

BUT, I have a question.
Do you think I could get a 1080p RAW camera that shoots 24/30p to Sd cards, with a interchangeable lens mount, it also needs to have close to industry leading Dynamic Range (five years ago 13 stops was huge, still is IMHO), Oh!!! and it has to be the size of a Nikon Cool Pix camera? Thanks! Oh and can y'all throw in Prores HQ too? All for under a grand please!

What do you think would have happened if that question would have been presented here, or at any forum for that matter?
Dude would have been laughed of the boards and possibly banned as a troll. :) :P

But yet one year latter out of know where the Pocket was born.
Last edited by Timothy Cook on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 919
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:All we want is the small sensor, Pocket Dynamic range, RAW recording, low frame rate 4k camera.


That's **all** you want? And for all of $2K...?

Timothy Cook wrote:It's literally a slightly smaller version of the PC4K that shoots to newer UHS-II SD cards without the larger global lower DR sensor.


Great! But what does it matter what you want, if those specifications are not workable at prices you're willing to pay, and with the number of people willing to make the purchase?

If you don't like current $1-2K 4K cameras, I'd suggest that maybe there's a good reason.
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 8:57 pm

John Paines wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:All we want is the small sensor, Pocket Dynamic range, RAW recording, low frame rate 4k camera.


That's **all** you want? And for all of $2K...?


Read post I just posted above your latest. :)
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 919
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:07 pm



start at 5:20.

You'll get the answer you've already been given here: it can't be done satisfactorily with available technology at the price you want.

There's no doubt BMD could offer a substantially improved 1080p camera, but won't for obvious reasons: all the senseless clamor for 4K makes marketing that superior product impossible today.
Last edited by John Paines on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

Que Thompson

  • Posts: 114
  • Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:19 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:13 pm

John Paines wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJLVErkKqY

start at 5:20.

You'll get the answer you've already been given here: it can't be done satisfactorily with available technology at the price you want.

They no doubt could offer a substantially improved 1080p camera, but won't for obvious reasons: all the senseless clamor for 4K makes marketing that superior product impossible today.


OMG. FINALLY. Straight from the horses mouth. (an american figure of speech that means "straight from the source")

Maybe this can die now.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:30 pm

A 4K Pocket size camera with Raw recording is not technically possible with the same IQ as the current Pocket camera. The highest factor as Tim stated is - Heat! You need room to cool a high res sensor, the UM is mostly cooling system inside its case. The Micro 4K without a built in recorder, takes a fan to keep it cool. Maybe some day soon, a 4K high DR sensor will become available to make a smaller 4K Cinema camera possible.

Meanwhile, what we got will have to do. I would love an improved Pocket, slightly larger camera size, with full size hdmi or better yet SDI DIN connectors, a higher res screen and improved audio recording/mic preamps -- same great HD sensor, thatmpart is not broken. A slightly larger, more robust camera with a useable Video Assist style touch screen. But, with all the marketing hype over 4K, probably not going to happen either.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:38 pm

Denny Smith wrote:A 4K Pocket size camera with Raw recording is not technically possible with the same IQ as the current Pocket camera.


Ok I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, in a fun way. How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?
LOL you guys are killing me on the imagination part. I thought we were all content creators where imagination goes a long way. :)

It can be larger!!! It can cost more!!!! lol
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Paines

  • Posts: 919
  • Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:Ok I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, in a fun way. How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?


You really think it never occurred to BMD that the 4K Pocket could be somewhat larger and cost a bit more, in any age when DSLRs are a popular choice for shooting video. including "cinematic" material? Or that prospective buyers didn't make that clear?

Who's trolling whom?
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 6818
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 9:56 pm

It is more about getting a good 4K high DR sensor that is similar in IQ to the current Pocket camera sensor that is the technical issue, along with cooling the extra heat created in a high speed readout 4K sensor creates. Give BM time p, and as technology Improves in the sensor market, a good candidate might come along. But right now, BM has been unable to find the "perfect" sensor for this camera idea.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:03 pm

John Paines wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:Ok I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, in a fun way. How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?


You really think it never occurred to BMD that the 4K Pocket could be somewhat larger and cost a bit more, in any age when DSLRs are a popular choice for shooting video. including "cinematic" material? Or that prospective buyers didn't make that clear?

Who's trolling whom?


Of course BMD is thinking this. They have proved time and time again that they are capable of doing what other companies can't. In the video you posted Tim says that BMD can't fit 4K into a Pocket size camera, but nothing about a DSLR size camera or 2/3 size Production Camera.

Why I say "Trolled" jokingly, is that when anyone ask for the version two of BMD smallest camera, the response is that it won't fit in a Pocket body. And everyone know very well this conversation has gone on in maaaany threads. :) And in those other countless threads everyone seems to agree that "Pocket" is a generic term for BMD Smallest Cinema camera, and the people who want a new "Pocket/Micro/small form factor" camera would be more than happy with it being considerable larger and costing more.
But, everytime the same response comes out" It won't work with a Pocket size camera".
Hey no hard feelings. People keep asking for better stuff from BMD and people keep shooting those ideas down. Until BMD release exactly what they were asking for.
And then it just gets awkward. :)
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1794
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:13 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:A 4K Pocket size camera with Raw recording is not technically possible with the same IQ as the current Pocket camera.


Ok I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, in a fun way. How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?
LOL you guys are killing me on the imagination part. I thought we were all content creators where imagination goes a long way. :)

It can be larger!!! It can cost more!!!! lol



But....

Isn't that the current Ursa Mini ??

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 7419
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:19 pm

The debate must be raging within BMD after launching the URSA Mini Pro. What are the priorities for the next two years? URSA Pro 6K, URSA Micro 4.6K. Micro Pro 4K. Pocket Pro 2.4K?

The 4.6K is a BMD sensor design. I don't know if they have the option to create an 8K, 6K, 4K, 2.4K Cut of that sensor. Up to their arrangements with their primary contractor. Otherwise, they're at the mercy of what off-the-shelf sensors are in the pipeline. They have so much invested in their 4.6K design, but that really likely needs another redesign if they're going to be able to move the needle in terms of improvements to dynamic range and well size and microlenses and so on. We may not see that for another year or two, but I'm sure they have no shortage of ideas and prototypes to work through.

In the meantime, I'm thrilled with what I have.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:19 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:A 4K Pocket size camera with Raw recording is not technically possible with the same IQ as the current Pocket camera.


Ok I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, in a fun way. How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?
LOL you guys are killing me on the imagination part. I thought we were all content creators where imagination goes a long way. :)

It can be larger!!! It can cost more!!!! lol



But....

Isn't that the current Ursa Mini ??



JB



Touche'! :). But that does so much more FPS etc. and needs so much more. Small gimbal version M4/3 is what most are asking for.

Honestly this is actually my fault. I should not have chimed in on the "No new Pocket... Now what" thread and made a "Hey BMD we hope you are working on a new Micro II" thread.

Think about it. 4K Micro4/3 sensor, "micro" shape but 6" inches wide to house the VA 5" touch screen on the back, a little deeper, UHS-II card slot, and 24/30p max. Battery would be whatever.
That's a lot of internal space now.
$2500-$3000

Edit: or even APS-C size sensor. Or even zero display because cinema shooters and gimbal users aren't going to use a on camera display any ways. But still keep the 6" width.


I just read Rick's post "Micro Pro" nails the name for it.
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1794
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:49 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:
Think about it. 4K Micro4/3 sensor, "micro" shape but 6" inches wide to house the VA 5" touch screen on the back, a little deeper, UHS-II card slot, and 24/30p max. Battery would be whatever.
That's a lot of internal space now.
$2500-$3000

Edit: or even APS-C size sensor. Or even zero display because cinema shooters and gimbal users aren't going to use a on camera display any ways. But still keep the 6" width.


I just read Rick's post "Micro Pro" nails the name for it.


I think the market for that is very small. Few will pay that much for a camera that doesn't have a screen and doesn't shoot faster than 30.

What you just pictched is basically the 4k Production camera.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline

Timothy Cook

  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:10 am
  • Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:59 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:
Think about it. 4K Micro4/3 sensor, "micro" shape but 6" inches wide to house the VA 5" touch screen on the back, a little deeper, UHS-II card slot, and 24/30p max. Battery would be whatever.
That's a lot of internal space now.
$2500-$3000

Edit: or even APS-C size sensor. Or even zero display because cinema shooters and gimbal users aren't going to use a on camera display any ways. But still keep the 6" width.


I just read Rick's post "Micro Pro" nails the name for it.


I think the market for that is very small. Few will pay that much for a camera that doesn't have a screen and doesn't shoot faster than 30.

What you just pictched is basically the 4k Production camera.

JB


Yeah, the screen thing is an option that I'm sure would be needed for better control of the cameras functions.

I know, the Production Camera 4K is on my Radar big time and I almost picked one up three months ago.

New version could be smaller, use UHS-II, Rolling Shutter for better Dynamic Range, and a Smaller M 4/3 mount and sensor.

I'm not denying it's a smaller more advance PC4K but I think that would sell well. No?

Or let's call it a smaller 2.5 with 4k. I guarantee that would sell like crazy!
Vimeo.com/dropbars
Offline

John Brawley

  • Posts: 1794
  • Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:57 am
  • Location: Atlanta Georgia

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:23 am

Timothy Cook wrote:I'm not denying it's a smaller more advance PC4K but I think that would sell well. No?

Or let's call it a smaller 2.5 with 4k. I guarantee that would sell like crazy!


Nope.

Not for that price without higher frame rates.

JB
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Atlanta
Georgia
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 1678
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 5:29 am

Wayne Steven wrote:8k is the market they are in. The market is moving that way, and it is the next format to sell new cameras for.


Not really. I've so far found only one venue where I can even watch 8K footage in 8K, and that's at the NAB Futures Park.

No one is going to mastering a film with visual effects in it in 8K any time soon.

Hollywood still masters in 2K.

Actually, 8k is preferable for 4k and 2k even if you never want to do an 8k delivery. It minimizes low pass filtering blur or aliasing when you down convert properly, giving a sharp image.


The extra resolution aids compositing, keying, tracking, and that sort of thing. Hence the common model of using Alexas as A cameras and Epics for FX shots.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://www.WhiteCranePhotography.com
Offline

Thomas Thiele

  • Posts: 435
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:16 am
  • Location: Erfurt, Germany

Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 12:18 pm

John Brawley wrote:I'd choose ProRes and 12 bit files @ 1920 ANY day over 4K.
And by the way, 95% of the world's TV drama production is still 1920.


The Pocket has no real 1920. This results in some strange fixed noise pattern under some circumstances.
I would like something like 2.5K - 3K to give full 1920 after debayering and reframing.
BMPCC, Lumix G3, GF3
pana 7-14, SLRM 12/T1.6, sigma 19, pana 20/1.7, pana 14-42, pana 45-150,
pentacon auto 29/2.8, 50/1.8, 135/2.8.
Next

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 13 guests