No new Pocket...now what?

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 12:59 pm

Thomas Thiele wrote:
The Pocket has no real 1920. This results in some strange fixed noise pattern under some circumstances.
I would like something like 2.5K - 3K to give full 1920 after debayering and reframing.


It does have a "real" 1920. The "strange fixed pattern noise" you're referring to is most likely moire noise, which is a side effect of not having an OLPF, not a symptom of not having a "true 1920" or some other silliness.

If reframing in post is that important to you, then you probably should spend more of your time getting better at framing shots rather than complaining about the camera's limitations. I've shot films with Pocket cinema cameras that have been shown in theaters, and they've held up to the massive enlargement just fine.

Some people though that I'd shot those on a Red...
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 1:03 pm

Actually it has fixed patterns of perfectly white pixels at ISO1600. Often serveral hundreds of them. As they are exactly 1px in size and randomly distributed, some compositing can work around that without loosing much sharpness.

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:13 pm

Then don't use it at ISO 1600. I only rarely even had problems with moire; never any problems with fixed pattern noise, but then I also made sure that I gave the camera enough light to do its job.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:17 pm

Denny Smith wrote:A 4K Pocket size camera with Raw recording is not technically possible with the same IQ as the current Pocket camera. The highest factor as Tim stated is - Heat! You need room to cool a high res sensor, the UM is mostly cooling system inside its case. The Micro 4K without a built in recorder, takes a fan to keep it cool. Maybe some day soon, a 4K high DR sensor will become available to make a smaller 4K Cinema camera possible.


hi,
taking into account EOL of this ...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58586
.. my _guess_ that there will be something in this form-factor (size) with a 2560 (or around) res

let's hope that i'm right :mrgreen:
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:45 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:I'm not denying it's a smaller more advance PC4K but I think that would sell well. No?

Or let's call it a smaller 2.5 with 4k. I guarantee that would sell like crazy!


Nope.

Not for that price without higher frame rates.

JB


You may very well be correct. You have definitely got your ear in the industry to know the wants of DPs more intrenched than I do.

But I just keep falling back on how popular the Pocket and Micro are and how adding some size and 4K seems like a no brainer.

But I hear you on the price. The almost $4000 price of the Osmo, which does exactly what I want 4k RAW, interchangeable M4/3 mount and sensor, in a small form factor, is one of the main reasons I haven't tried it out in the last year.

Here's to dreaming big. :)
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:50 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:Then don't use it at ISO 1600. I only rarely even had problems with moire; never any problems with fixed pattern noise, but then I also made sure that I gave the camera enough light to do its job.


That's not an option, when it is dark on stage and the required dof limits you to F2.8.
I didn't say ISO 12800 or 6400 that this old camera is incapable of.
But as I said it's easy to fix. (At least in raw and ProRes422HQ)
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:52 pm

From what I heard the color rendering and noise of the Osmo was very sub-par and hard to correct/match in post and thus rendering the option of raw useless.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:55 pm

Are there other MFT cameras that offer raw paired with >12EV dynamic range?

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:56 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:If reframing in post is that important to you, then you probably should spend more of your time getting better at framing shots rather than complaining about the camera's limitations. I've shot films with Pocket cinema cameras that have been shown in theaters, and they've held up to the massive enlargement just fine.


Its just complaining at a very high niveau.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 2:59 pm

Thomas Thiele wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:If reframing in post is that important to you, then you probably should spend more of your time getting better at framing shots rather than complaining about the camera's limitations. I've shot films with Pocket cinema cameras that have been shown in theaters, and they've held up to the massive enlargement just fine.


Its just complaining at a very high niveau.
I love my bmpcc. Dont get me wrong.

Who said that I'm the one shooting with it?
I'm operating on just one of 5 cameras that only get a single chance to capture the respective event and I own two Pocket Cinema cameras.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:07 pm

MarcusWolschon wrote:From what I heard the color rendering and noise of the Osmo was very sub-par and hard to correct/match in post and thus rendering the option of raw useless.

DJI had an ASC cinematographer try it out. He said that it matched up well with Alexas.

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:30 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
MarcusWolschon wrote:From what I heard the color rendering and noise of the Osmo was very sub-par and hard to correct/match in post and thus rendering the option of raw useless.

DJI had an ASC cinematographer try it out. He said that it matched up well with Alexas.

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The X5 R is rubbish. I've shot it and it's got zero chance of matching to an Alexa.

The rolling shutter is also terrible.

There is a newer X7. Maybe we should clarify which Osmo were talking about.

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Wayne Steven

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 2:35 pm

Timothy, don't worry about it, it's not worth it. Every time somebody speaks "humble " progressive truth, apparently somebody arrogantly has to attack it with mistaken self invested logic. A very old story, and they will troll the issue till the day grows old. I have seen this many times, and they often don't have substance to their arguments. I will answer many of the errant arguments right now. And just remember, we are pushing for a better future.

If you look at the history of forums, the introduction of HD saw people bemoaning cit as irrelevant, tat SD was good enough. I even read one guy saying DVD was good enough for cinema projection, incredible. When we went up in resolution more people decried the highest resolution was too much, and people couldn't are it. This means that maybe we should scrap fullhd and go to HD or SD in cinema? Now some of these people admittedly would have challenged eyesight where they think there is not much of a difference, and even if they know others can see it, still insist we should follow them. There are people out theatre that can defined 8k, wen you can see it, it looks like h264 noisy video blown up. But for various scientific reasons, 4k is sufficient. It is fine enough to be close to 8k for the smaller percentage of 8k seerers, without looking too grainy, I feel, and most of the market are 4k or less seerers. I don't know how many young people can see 8k, but it might be high.

BM may nor be able do it, the way BM is used to doing it, not the better ways it can be done. BM has a way they design things, and technologies they produce things on. See below.

If it is so hard to encode 8k, how come there has been low end consumer camera chipsets capable of doing 8k/SHD for a few years?

That the primary difference between these 8k low end chipsets and a digital cinema camera, is lack of a raw output 800 MB/s output something have cheap interfaces for, and simply as the chips already pull and process and color correct raw into h264/h265 which only needs a simple circuits to dump the!pm to a port (of which various 10Gb/s+ hdmi, do, USB and TB would now hopefully do) , and now memory alternatives tat cash record it. But the addition if some simple circuits could yield 2:1+ compression. So doable in X watts in thee most advanced per watt camera chipset technology.

Now, mobile phones also do a lot of this internally, some at 600Mb/s 4kp24.

Now, as far as overeating sensors. As was pointed out, there are many 4/3rds, even some s35, and lots of those tiny phones, that pull 4k video from their sensor without overheating, they have 6k Chips available, and Nokia did a SHD chip ears ago, which was rather good, on a phone, years in the past, not an imaginary future were anybody would mythically struggle to do it. Sony now do a sensor that process something like HD at 1000fpa, which is the same as a 8k data rate. Sony has access to micron's old high speed sensor IP, so many cameras do 4k internally using their sensors now.

Now, as I stated 8k has the distinct advantage of pulling stills from the frames, and poster sized ones at that. Real world, reasl world advantage. In weddings and other events, even on set, big advantage, big big big advantage. Any frame can be pulled corrected and posterised for marketing/advertising, real money. No need to have a photographer around to compensate for inadequate resolution, or o miss the best ****, give him the photographer to trawl for any ideal shot better than his/her.

Now, saying sharper pixels and better detail dries not matter, us like saying models aren't hot because they are skinny. Now their are hot non skinny models around, and I don't normally like too skinny myself, but that is the general impression. So, my explanation that 8k is useful for oversampling fullhd and 4k, and reducing bayer deficiencies low-pass and no low-pass filtering stands. Bayer, on the quality side, is a compromise. Foveon x3 made good examples of that, and their owners, Sigma, would probably welcome a partner like BM. Not only that Bayer can confuse debayered details and edges. Frankly, a minor spread low pass filter is preferable to none.

Nobody said you had to process and master in 8k, you simply bayer down sample into a 4k or fullhd regular pixel format (4:4:4/4:2:2/4:2:0 etc) and ten work on that. The same way that nobody said you had to have 8 bit 8k instead of 10-12 bit 8k, as you pointed out. Dragging irrelevant side ventures into it is not helpful.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 3:49 pm

Wayne Steven,

I know it's pointless, but this is a slow day....

Kindly supply empirical evidence that resolutions higher than HD achieve greater suspension of disbelief or higher financial returns, or lacking proof of either of those claims, create uncommon joy among viewers not available at lower resolutions. Note that personal preferences or arguing from analogy (HD is better than SD!) or tautology (more is by definition better than less!) are not germane here.

Once that proof is in hand, kindly offer evidence that the same advantage applies to the ultra-low budget end of movie production -- you know, the productions looking for $995 or $1995 A-cams -- where (incidentally) the chances of actual theater projection are just about nill.

And finally, when all that's in hand, please do offer your engineering expertise to BMD. They've already said they can't solve the heat issue at present, but since you can, that should settle it.

When you've done all that, feel free to insult the luddite stupidity and intransigence of of all the doubters.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:If it is so hard to encode 8k, how come there has been low end consumer camera chipsets capable of doing 8k/SHD for a few years?


Show us the 8K low end consumer cameras Wayne....

Wayne Steven wrote:
Now, as far as overeating sensors. As was pointed out, there are many 4/3rds, even some s35, and lots of those tiny phones, that pull 4k video from their sensor without overheating,


Which ones do uncompressed RAW and ProRes Wayne ?

Wayne Steven wrote:
Now, as I stated 8k has the distinct advantage of pulling stills from the frames, and poster sized ones at that. Real world, reasl world advantage. In weddings and other events, even on set, big advantage, big big big advantage. Any frame can be pulled corrected and posterised for marketing/advertising, real money. No need to have a photographer around to compensate for inadequate resolution, or o miss the best ****, give him the photographer to trawl for any ideal shot better than his/her.




This theory of doing stills from high res video is largely discredited. It doesn't really work... Do you know why ?

Here's a NO FILM SCHOOL story from 2011 re-sprouting the RED speak. http://nofilmschool.com/2011/07/wedding ... epic-youre

The closest some photographers got was for fashion work. From 2014.
https://fstoppers.com/editorial/exclusi ... aker-34469

It doesn't work because the motion blur is too slow. No one wants' their wedding video to look like a scene from saving private ryan.

You have to shoot still photos with a high shutter speed to reduce blur and make a nice photo, especially on something that's moving and uncontrolled, like, a bride at a wedding.

For pretty motion you want the opposite, a slow shutter speed to make the nice motion blur that helps the pictures look fluid, smooth and pretty.

You shoot a wedding with high shutter speeds, then you end up with a choppy hip hop music clip.

Maybe one day a long time from now, those small micron sensors will be so sensitive that you could run two exposure cycles, but we're a very very long way form the sensors being sensitive enough to do two exposure cycles and make nice pictures in a crappy LED lit reception center.

It's a nice theory, but it doesn't work in reality.

High res motion cameras have been around for long enough for this to have TAKEN if it was going to work. It's already market proven. Some try it, but anyone who wants to make nice pictures, stills or video, and that's usually what gets the return business, won't do it. The only way this idea works is if you favour one over the other, to the detriment of one of them

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 pm

Johns, go to bed. You are really laboring the points. I have a busy several days ahead of me, so can't really continue this for now. OK?

PS, go to ambarella, the supplier of a lot of video camera chipset related IP in the industry, and supplier of many off the shelf parts to gopro and cheap action and video cameras in the industry, and look for their 8k related chipsets. Realise, that they are not too much away from being able to be designed to do the pockets job.

And please read my previous posts this time, you will see I carefully qualify everything to e correct over hours of writing them.

Thanks. Night.

:)
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 5:57 pm

John Brawley wrote:The X5 R is rubbish. I've shot it and it's got zero chance of matching to an Alexa.

The rolling shutter is also terrible.

There is a newer X7. Maybe we should clarify which Osmo were talking about.

JB


I have no idea what the model name is, but it's the camera on the Inspire2 Pro.

I thought DJI had it available to work with an Osmo as well, but based on what I saw at the DJI booth yesterday, I think I was mistaken.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 pm

John Brawley wrote:It's a nice theory, but it doesn't work in reality.

High res motion cameras have been around for long enough for this to have TAKEN if it was going to work. It's already market proven. Some try it, but anyone who wants to make nice pictures, stills or video, and that's usually what gets the return business, won't do it. The only way this idea works is if you favour one over the other, to the detriment of one of them


Yes, exactly. I personally do use my Red for both stills and motion, but not at the same time. That's precisely why Red cameras have a stills mode, and also why they allow for quite high shutter speeds.

That is also, IMO, the primary benefit in having an 8K cinema camera, at least for now. I've only actually been able to VIEW 8K a couple of times now, and both times were at NAB, and using hardware that isn't available to the public.

Ergonomically it's not ideal, but it saves weight on lenses.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 6:17 pm

Me thinks we are drifting off topic -- this is supposed to be about a small size Pocket camera replacement.... So, Panasonic has stolen the "new" camera release, with their new small size Cinema type camera placed between the GH5 and the Viaricam LT. Whi,e not exactly a "Pocket" camera in size, it looks like a smaller Ursa Mini/FS55 type camera. Now BM has something to consider with their next small Cimena camera.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 6:17 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Johns, go to bed. You are really laboring the points.:)


So you post these exhaustively long screeds, one after another, thousands of words, and when asked to substantiate your claims and answer for the actual and implied insults directed at other contributors here, you're suddenly far too busy.

It's just as well, but I believe there's a word for that sort of behavior.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 6:33 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Me thinks we are drifting off topic -- this is supposed to be about a small size Pocket camera replacement.... So, Panasonic has stolen the "new" camera release, with their new small size Cinema type camera placed between the GH5 and the Viaricam LT. Whi,e not exactly a "Pocket" camera in size, it looks like a smaller Ursa Mini/FS55 type camera. Now BM has something to consider with their next small Cimena camera.
Cheers


I don't agree, since the UM 4.6K Pro just launched a couple of months ago, and the new Panasonic won't be unveiled until Cinegears...
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:32 pm

I understand all the reasons why it doesn't make sense for BM to iterate the BMPCC at this time. Still, it would have been nice to see even incremental enhancements to make run-and-gun shooting with a minimal rig easier, even if only at the current resolution. Stuff like:

Better battery life
Better LCD and/or a small viewfinder
Perhaps more processing power for focus and exposure aids (false color, etc.)

At the price point, the incremental sales increase would probably have to be pretty big to justify the development.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:48 pm

It might be something as simple as not having enough resources to manufacture two new lines of cameras as well as not having enough engineers to develop them concurrently in order to avoid the announce at NAB 2017 -> ship at Nab 2018 carbuncle.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Rakesh, you make a couple of good points. Yes the UM Pro was out first, created lots of excitement before NAB, the Panasonic camera will be a post NAB unveiling, even though they gave a "tease" at NAB. For those looking for a AF100 type replacement, this might be it?

At the price point, the incremental sales increase would probably have to be pretty big to justify the development... Steve H


Yes I agree Steve, especially since what you describe can be met with the Micro Cinema camera, just add the EVF or monitor of choice, and you have all theses features in a small package.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 7:57 pm

Much as at least some of us would like to see an improved HD camera, the guy in the video explained it: 4K is the only format which makes sense from a marketing perspective. A pity, but true.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Yeah, unfortunately, I think what the above video shows is that the Pocket form factor is dead, at least for the forseeable future. There was a chance at an incrementally better Pocket, if they didn't need to go all the way to 4K, but he says that's the next step. So that seals it.

There's a much better chance at getting a "Micro Pro" with an updated sensor, because the Micro can take a bigger battery, and has a fan.

No fan, and a battery that's already comically insufficient - even for 1080p - means that Pocket 2 is a unicorn.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 8:26 pm

[quote="Denny Smith"]Rakesh, you make a couple of good points. Yes the UM Pro was out first, created lots of excitement before NAB, the Panasonic camera will be a post NAB unveiling, even though they gave a "tease" at NAB. For those looking for a AF100 type replacement, this might be it?

Possibly. I don't really know; the only things that Mitch Gross told us were the silly things he was telling to people who kept pestering him to lift off the blanket in the booth. :)

What I really don't understand though, is why so many people aren't happy with the UM 4.6K and 4.6K Pro... as in, why they're complaining about BMD not having 6K or 8K, especially given the price and image quality.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 9:04 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:What I really don't understand though, is why so many people aren't happy with the UM 4.6K and 4.6K Pro... as in, why they're complaining about BMD not having 6K or 8K, especially given the price and image quality.


Because they think all the K's will make them a better filmmaker/storyteller/DP/director, etc. :|
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 9:33 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:What I really don't understand though, is why so many people aren't happy with the UM 4.6K and 4.6K Pro... as in, why they're complaining about BMD not having 6K or 8K, especially given the price and image quality.

Really? There are "so many people that aren't happy" with the resolution of the 4.6? First I've heard of that, but you may be correct. IMO I feel the 4.6 is has the sharpest image of all the 4K plus cameras on the market, minus maybe the 8K RED, but it's close.


Jason R. Johnston wrote:Because they think all the K's will make them a better filmmaker/storyteller/DP/director, etc. :|

Come on now, this type of reply is just weird. lol :P
No one thinks that, but I'm sure everyone wants to start each production out with the highest level of quality for the budget they have.

This seems to be the reply lately when anyone will ask/request that a certain feature is added.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 10:27 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:Really? There are "so many people that aren't happy" with the resolution of the 4.6? First I've heard of that, but you may be correct. IMO I feel the 4.6 is has the sharpest image of all the 4K plus cameras on the market, minus maybe the 8K RED, but it's close.


Been avoiding the forums? People have been asking for 6K and 8K cameras at NAB even though BMD just launched the UM 4.6K Pro.

No one thinks that, but I'm sure everyone wants to start each production out with the highest level of quality for the budget they have.


I think they do, actually. I'm also sure that most (read: all) of the folks who've been asking for 6K and 8K don't actually plan on making any movies, just doing some tests, finding some excuse that it's not quite there yet, and then going back to complaining about BMD not having yet another feature that Red or Arri or Varicam has that BMD doesn't. That's been the usual pattern, though not just here.

This seems to be the reply lately when anyone will ask/request that a certain feature is added.
"Stop complaining and demanding things! I use to walk up hill both ways to school in the snow, so you should have to too." :)


That has a lot to do with the fact that the most common feature requests are really just disguised requests for more talent in the box. Some of the features are useful, like integral NDs, even though they're not critical in film since anyone serious about making films will have a mattebox anyway.

Interchangeable lens mounts however is a big plus for a cinema camera. Still not critical, but a lot more beneficial to filmmakers than integral NDs. Of course, for ENG shooters, integral NDs are a much bigger deal than for cinematographers.

No one here NEEDs more resolution. Most of us don't even need 4K most of the time. 8K? For most independent film, it's just overkill.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 11:43 pm

Good points Rakesh, also,shooting in 8K is going to eat your IT alive, in massive data storage to shift through and store. I can see doing some shots in 8K for VX, but that's about it. Even IMAX is upresed from lower resolution files, and as John said, most Crimea productions are released in HD or 2K, not even 4K. So acquisition in 4K should be more then enough for the next several years, if not longer.

Rakesh, any chance you got a look at,rhemlens on Mitch Gross' mystery camera? Some are saying it looked like a Sigma Art lens. This could be a clue to the lens mount it is using. Thanks.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 11:55 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Good points Rakesh, also,shooting in 8K is going to eat your IT alive, in massive data storage to shift through and store. I can see doing some shots in 8K for VX, but that's about it. Even IMAX is upresed from lower resolution files, and as John said, most Crimea productions are released in HD or 2K, not even 4K. So acquisition in 4K should be more then enough for the next several years, if not longer.


Yeah, 8K looks great when well shot with an Epic-W (duh), but not so much when it's stitched from 17 streams of h.264 and then viewed at 3mm from your eyeball.

Rakesh, any chance you got a look at,rhemlens on Mitch Gross' mystery camera? Some are saying it looked like a Sigma Art lens. This could be a clue to the lens mount it is using. Thanks.
Cheers


No, sadly I wasn't able to get a closer look. But even if I had, I'd probably end up being under embargo anyway, so my answer would probably end up being something along the lines of, "Yes, it supports lenses."

:o
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 11:58 pm

Thanks Rakesh, I am enjoying your unique sense of humor this afternoon. :mrgreen:
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 12:06 am

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks Rakesh, I am enjoying your unique sense of humor this afternoon. :mrgreen:
Cheers


Trying to maintain a sense of levity to keep myself awake after the NABness induced burnout :mrgreen:
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 am

Timothy Cook wrote:... walk up hill both ways to school in the snow...


Love that line. Reminds me of my dad's experience as a schoolboy in northern Ontario walking three miles to school. Someone might steal that and use it for a title.


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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:41 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:Really? There are "so many people that aren't happy" with the resolution of the 4.6? First I've heard of that, but you may be correct. IMO I feel the 4.6 is has the sharpest image of all the 4K plus cameras on the market, minus maybe the 8K RED, but it's close.


Been avoiding the forums? People have been asking for 6K and 8K cameras at NAB even though BMD just launched the UM 4.6K Pro.

No one thinks that, but I'm sure everyone wants to start each production out with the highest level of quality for the budget they have.


I think they do, actually. I'm also sure that most (read: all) of the folks who've been asking for 6K and 8K don't actually plan on making any movies, just doing some tests, finding some excuse that it's not quite there yet, and then going back to complaining about BMD not having yet another feature that Red or Arri or Varicam has that BMD doesn't. That's been the usual pattern, though not just here.

This seems to be the reply lately when anyone will ask/request that a certain feature is added.
"Stop complaining and demanding things! I use to walk up hill both ways to school in the snow, so you should have to too." :)


That has a lot to do with the fact that the most common feature requests are really just disguised requests for more talent in the box. Some of the features are useful, like integral NDs, even though they're not critical in film since anyone serious about making films will have a mattebox anyway.

Interchangeable lens mounts however is a big plus for a cinema camera. Still not critical, but a lot more beneficial to filmmakers than integral NDs. Of course, for ENG shooters, integral NDs are a much bigger deal than for cinematographers.

No one here NEEDs more resolution. Most of us don't even need 4K most of the time. 8K? For most independent film, it's just overkill.


Well, I'm hopeful the industry is better than you have described them and are looking to improve instead of disprove. Seems kind of a bleak outlook on other shooters who aren't yourself.

I for one am a lowly 1080p shooter who is finally looking to move up to the world of 4K, without sacrificing everything that I have from my Micro Cinema, DR, Look, RAW, and keep a smallish size body. (Not the same size as the Micro but smaller than the 4.6) At this point though all I hear is that I don't need that 4k of resolution and should be happy with 1080p, and usually/nearly always by the same people who are shooting 4K. :P

For some reason more resolution and being a skilled DP or being more than happy with the former product but also wanting to upgrade seems to be mutually exclusive here.

Why can't someone be a great shooter but also want more? Honestly, it's all relative, cameras will keep getting better, and we will always want the new guys to know where we came from and require them to travel the same path, or at least understand that if they don't then they don't have the skill the "Old Guard" has.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 4:54 am

rick.lang wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:... walk up hill both ways to school in the snow...


Love that line. Reminds me of my dad's experience as a schoolboy in northern Ontario walking three miles to school. Someone might steal that and use it for a title.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Haha! Thanks Rick, but I can't take credit for it. I figured everyone knows that line, it's as old as time itself here in the U.S.

We use it for any situation where someone is trying to get you to do it the old way because that's the way they did it. Even if said "old way" isn't relevant anymore.

We also like to follow up the first phase with" Get off my lawn you kids", while shaking a fist in the air. :P lol
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 5:19 am

I wouldn't mind a handheld camcorder or medium format camera (canon XC20/Hasselblad style) or C10, style form factor. Smaller then a full sized URSA Mini Pro shoulder camera but larger then there former pocket. Just not DSLM /DSLR because that's not an ergonomic form factor for filming. (but of cause that would give the stealth of the current point & shoot style form factor)
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 2:26 pm

Timothy Cook wrote:How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?


Perhaps it's time to stop calling it the Pocket II then.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 2:52 pm

Tomas Stacewicz wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:How many times does everyone that wants a small from factor 4K RAW camera have to say that they don't need it to be "Pocket size" or cost under $1000?


Perhaps it's time to stop calling it the Pocket II then.


Because "URSA Micro SemiPro" would suggest to go away from the Micro Four Thirds mount. That would not be a successor and not be any kind of option for Pocket users (who likely have invested in MFT lenses and bodies).
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:37 pm

Looks to me that you actually want an upgraded 4K version of the old (and now discontinued) Blackmagic Cinema Camera, with a sensor size equal to its 2.5K sensor. You want an BMCC II, in contrast to the Super 35 BMPC 4K.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 7:41 pm

These didn't have a very practical form factor for anything but scenic/stage/studio work.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostFri Apr 28, 2017 10:54 pm

I love my Pocket Cam. And I completely understand why 4K is out of the question at present, possibly at all in the present form factor. I do though feel that enhancements could be made, and I have mentioned these before.
An actual viewfinder like more than 50% of compact stills camears have!
A usable touchscreen on the back.
A slightly larger sensor, 2.6k maybe?
Better Audio Pre Amps.
Slightly better battery life.

I'm pretty happy with the rest as is. For professional DPs, the Pocket will always be a 'B' Cam so expecting it to produce everything in its present form is unreasonable. If used as is the Pocket is a wonderfully discrete way of collecting footage.

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 3:38 am

John Paines wrote:Wayne Steven,

I know it's pointless, but this is a slow day....

Kindly supply empirical evidence that resolutions higher than HD achieve greater suspension of disbelief or higher financial returns, or lacking proof of either of those claims, create uncommon joy among viewers not available at lower resolutions. Note that personal preferences or arguing from analogy (HD is better than SD!) or tautology (more is by definition better than less!) are not germane here.

Once that proof is in hand, kindly offer evidence that the same advantage applies to the ultra-low budget end of movie production -- you know, the productions looking for $995 or $1995 A-cams -- where (incidentally) the chances of actual theater projection are just about nill.

And finally, when all that's in hand, please do offer your engineering expertise to BMD. They've already said they can't solve the heat issue at present, but since you can, that should settle it.

When you've done all that, feel free to insult the luddite stupidity and intransigence of of all the doubters.


Ok, back, but still very busy till after 8th, but stuck waiting for somebody downtime, so maybe last post today, see how we go.

I can not make up for the deficiency of the see-er. You cam present to them, bit it is up to them to be accepting to see.

Firstly, the resolutions above HD, is an easier one. You should have said above 4k. Clearly fullhd looks better than hd. I can actually see the grid between the pixels on good digital screens, which is in the 8k territory. So, tell me how seeing a flyscreen is a suspension of disbelief. My vision goes up and down, but a portion of society will see this consistently, and wider portion fullhd and 4k pixels. 20/20 is far from best vision, best vision is 2 or 2.5 better than that, I forget which. There is a reason their are two lines below the 20/20 line on eye charts.

Again, as I posted, if you want to make a poster from frames people get up close and personal with you need more resolution. Now, get up and close to a hd or fullhd poster and marvel how horrible it looks. Even at 8k, bit it looks a lot better, and you have to get a lot closer. So passing by, its acceptable. Try it. Now, big wedding or events photographs ate the same. It is why it is harder to find a wedding photographer using fullhd for photos (surely there is somebody that does that). Why they even have greater than 8k cameras.

Now a big reason, as stated before, and as used, but you haven't seen to have read it. Low pass filtering, without a low pass filter on bayer, it looks sharper and more realistic, until you move around and start encountering problems. So, they usually do use a low pass filter that give details more a fuzzy washed look that has to be processed to reduce. Shooting for fullhd or 4k in 8k does some of the job of a low pass filter, requiring a lesser one, while producing a sharper, more immersive, realistic image. The renowned uhd nokia phone did it, Canon did it, and the same reason Reds and even the 4.6k operate at higher resolutions. So useful ebennin A cams, plus producing nice frames fir stills.

Now, another filming trick, the larger frame allows for better post zooming, and also digital zooming, which nokia used to do too. It is all a matter of work quality and workability.

Now, even in doco or sports situation, you can narrow down on the action. Its rather noisy here, so I'm not able to give every reason.

Theater projection, again you are trawling, because as I keep saying which you should have read, it is about producing better fhd and 4k, 100% chance of projection, and stills. But 8k TV and projection is coming, not just the few 8k projectors available today (for years the Sullivan one). They will require content being made today for mass introduction in a few years time.

Again, as already outlined that, trawlling like it wasn't said: There are plenty of low heat sensors and processing solutions out there BM could use, as outlined before. Blaming me is not a answer, and trying to make me, or others, jump through unnecessary hoops, after it has been adequately answered, for your trawling amusement is not it.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 4:01 am

John Paines wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Johns, go to bed. You are really laboring the points.:)


So you post these exhaustively long screeds, one after another, thousands of words, and when asked to substantiate your claims and answer for the actual and implied insults directed at other contributors here, you're suddenly far too busy.

It's just as well, but I believe there's a word for that sort of behavior.


John. Me spending several hours a day sincerely answering illegitimate and at times trawling posts by people re-asking what has been answered and throwing in red herrings and red herring demands and others, till 3am when I am busy when I needed to be asleep, is just more than adequate. Watching these people with their above 100 IQ trawling around thinking they are smart, always plain in view.

Now, we know what you are doing, so please let us have conversations in peace.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 4:05 am

Timothy Cook wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:What I really don't understand though, is why so many people aren't happy with the UM 4.6K and 4.6K Pro... as in, why they're complaining about BMD not having 6K or 8K, especially given the price and image quality.

Really? There are "so many people that aren't happy" with the resolution of the 4.6? First I've heard of that, but you may be correct. IMO I feel the 4.6 is has the sharpest image of all the 4K plus cameras on the market, minus maybe the 8K RED, but it's close.


Jason R. Johnston wrote:Because they think all the K's will make them a better filmmaker/storyteller/DP/director, etc. :|

Come on now, this type of reply is just weird. lol :P
No one thinks that, but I'm sure everyone wants to start each production out with the highest level of quality for the budget they have.

This seems to be the reply lately when anyone will ask/request that a certain feature is added.
"Stop complaining and demanding things! I use to walk up hill both ways to school in the snow, so you should have to too." :)

+1

The pro is just a version of the 4.6k, it is all about better filming results camera side, stills, and supplying the upcoming 8k mass market content, for those that want to. Its all pro stuff. The pro mini was just tying up some loose ends in the pro market. I suspect a ursa level 8k is planned as tje top end camera, at least $10k, though $5k would be nice. Somebody has to fill the 8k camera contracts for broadcasters, for sports at least. So just the standards process is enough to sell cameras by the truck load, even if only 10% of the market. If I was running any news crew, amd a big story was up, I would tell them to grab the 8k and slow motion stuff to capture everything. But as far as filming, 4k target is adequate for me for low budget. It's about sales/marketing/standardisation/practical work, which is business.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 4:06 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
John. Me spending several hours a day sincerely answering illegitimate and at times trawling posts


No.

You don't.

You dump a bunch of random factoids and claims and don't engage in conversation at all, especially when called on your claims. You just move onto some new stuff and insult everyone in a passive aggressive manner while you do it.

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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 4:23 am

Wrong John, John. I put out clear concise relevant structured and strung together facts, and precise targeted answers. Please refrain from this. I write to the level of the reader, so its understandable, as courtesy. I'm not going to get down to your post today.

Now, I'm just tidying up for today. Sorry, I come from a time where detailed civil duscussion was the norm. These days its just ill thought through opinionoids versus facts, and as long as tje ilopinion makers feel great about themselves and their feelings, it doesn't matter what fact has to die to archieve it, or your feelings. So Im pretty sensitized to it, having seen scores of this stuff on the net, and realising their vehsvoir will just suck up your week, because dont matter what you reason, they must have the win, oftrn undeservedly. John, speaking generally about lots of people. I have been repeatedly answering the same hostile objections=conversation on my part. People have been making non sensible hostile objections in my face=non conversation on their parts. Significantly answering something repeatedly means I can move on, once actually. I'm sorry if you feel that, but science and engineering, talking about real (good) scientists and engineers, are not over social etiquette to make others feel all warm and comfy people. I'm one of the really good ones at it though, and stick to an adequate amount. I often repeatedly edit my posts while writing, to make them friendlier, dot the i's and cross the t's, great lengths of time, hours om a post even. Expecting too much is always an issue (Like:"32k pocket camera please, what no 32k pocket camera, consumer tech is only up to 8k. Oh, woo to me.") expecting anything at all can lead to disappointment. Now speaking again generally, not about you John, people that violate everything, toss everything up and disrupt, all in their own passive aggressive v i o l e n c e, for really no good, but bad reasons, how should I answer them? I'm doing a pretty good job of being nice to them and ignoring their flinging rubbish around my conversation, but if they are just going to waste tens of hours of my time disrespectfully, than they need to get the hint. Now I find you pretty good John, I don't really include you on much of that. But please don't expect soothing instead of factual reading. :)
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sun May 07, 2017 6:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 4:33 am

Timothy Cook wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:
Timothy Cook wrote:Really? There are "so many people that aren't happy" with the resolution of the 4.6? First I've heard of that, but you may be correct. IMO I feel the 4.6 is has the sharpest image of all the 4K plus cameras on the market, minus maybe the 8K RED, but it's close.


Been avoiding the forums? People have been asking for 6K and 8K cameras at NAB even though BMD just launched the UM 4.6K Pro.

No one thinks that, but I'm sure everyone wants to start each production out with the highest level of quality for the budget they have.


I think they do, actually. I'm also sure that most (read: all) of the folks who've been asking for 6K and 8K don't actually plan on making any movies, just doing some tests, finding some excuse that it's not quite there yet, and then going back to complaining about BMD not having yet another feature that Red or Arri or Varicam has that BMD doesn't. That's been the usual pattern, though not just here.

This seems to be the reply lately when anyone will ask/request that a certain feature is added.
"Stop complaining and demanding things! I use to walk up hill both ways to school in the snow, so you should have to too." :)


That has a lot to do with the fact that the most common feature requests are really just disguised requests for more talent in the box. Some of the features are useful, like integral NDs, even though they're not critical in film since anyone serious about making films will have a mattebox anyway.

Interchangeable lens mounts however is a big plus for a cinema camera. Still not critical, but a lot more beneficial to filmmakers than integral NDs. Of course, for ENG shooters, integral NDs are a much bigger deal than for cinematographers.

No one here NEEDs more resolution. Most of us don't even need 4K most of the time. 8K? For most independent film, it's just overkill.


Well, I'm hopeful the industry is better than you have described them and are looking to improve instead of disprove. Seems kind of a bleak outlook on other shooters who aren't yourself.

I for one am a lowly 1080p shooter who is finally looking to move up to the world of 4K, without sacrificing everything that I have from my Micro Cinema, DR, Look, RAW, and keep a smallish size body. (Not the same size as the Micro but smaller than the 4.6) At this point though all I hear is that I don't need that 4k of resolution and should be happy with 1080p, and usually/nearly always by the same people who are shooting 4K. :P

For some reason more resolution and being a skilled DP or being more than happy with the former product but also wanting to upgrade seems to be mutually exclusive here.

Why can't someone be a great shooter but also want more? Honestly, it's all relative, cameras will keep getting better, and we will always want the new guys to know where we came from and require them to travel the same path, or at least understand that if they don't then they don't have the skill the "Old Guard" has.


+1

I found Imax too course. It depends on how the film is used, as to its resolution, but when digital projection came, 4k was hard to get even. In those days the stuff would have been beyond the pro standard of projection, and much more expensive Many years on, things are much better.
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Re: No new Pocket...now what?

PostSun May 07, 2017 6:12 am

So to wrap up the original question: There is nothing else on the market that would work as a a replacement for the the pocket with raw/ProRes, at least UHD, a form factor smaller then the URSA Mini Pro camera and a price tag within the general range between Pocket and GH5.
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