Introducing Blackmagic Production Camera 4K

I think people should restrain themselves from name calling and directly criticizing someone who's just putting here his humble opinion or what he feels about the delay... We all are humans and It's really frustrating sometimes to not get things timely or as promised. It is time for BMD to come up with an official statement about the true status of both the Cameras. I mean what's the harm if Grant petty or any other person from their camp come up and says "OH WE TRIED OUR BEST BUT COULDN'T MAKE IT TO THE JULY DELIVERY" this way at least people would be relieved and it will also help clear the air for the next few months.
Come on Blackmagic do an official statement on this we all love you and we hope you too, care for us!!

Thank You

I, for one, want the best possible quality straight away and if that means a delay, well, so be it.

As of late, I have been noticing the join dates of posters. If you had joined in 2012, I would have a greater appreciation for your opinions concerning BMD shipping delays. However, you are over a year late to the dance and possibly lack a grasp of what real hard core waiting is all about. And if you think waiting = better quality, you might consider a rethink.

This is a very good point and something Blackmagic should acknowledge a little bit more.

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

That's perfectly valid point!! BMD should compensate the waiters now and this should go like this: The Longest waiter gets the highest compensation....

With Magic Lantern hack, the 5d mark iii is able to produce 14 stops of dynamic range as of now! sorry i m just pointing towards what is happening with the 5d as i m one of the user of that camera AND yes i can say after the hack it is giving me much more DR than RED and ARRI. Although not all information at EOSHD is credible as it is the case with almost all forums.
tc

So 1 stop of DR is what turns a high end DSLR into a cinematic powerhouse?

Who is saying 1 stop of DR turns a DSLR into a cinematic powerhouse exactly? I have no idea where you got that from.

Usable DR with the stock Canon video mode is by my calculations a poor 8 stops. Not only is raw the full 11.5 stops of the sensor, it is 14bit over 8bit so when pushed around in post it doesn't fall apart. 1 stop? Try 3.5 stops, and then try another 2.5 stops in dual interline ISO scan mode for 14.

DR is only one part of image quality. In raw mode, resolution, colour, tonality, highlight roll off and compression improve too. In fact there's no compression, so nothing is lost. That sensor is a very good photographic one. Now it is a very good cinema one. Face facts my friend.

I, for one, want the best possible quality straight away and if that means a delay, well, so be it.

As of late, I have been noticing the join dates of posters. If you had joined in 2012, I would have a greater appreciation for your opinions concerning BMD shipping delays. However, you are over a year late to the dance and possibly lack a grasp of what real hard core waiting is all about. And if you think waiting = better quality, you might consider a rethink.

This is a very good point and something Blackmagic should acknowledge a little bit more.

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

But surely these people would have at least one other camera? No one is going to wait that long without a back up plan. I do understand the frustration though but I don't think a discount is the way to go. How much would you discount? Do you take into account the amount of time waiting for a new camera affected an individual's business? It sounds a bit messy.

But surely these people would have at least one other camera? No one is going to wait that long without a back up plan. I do understand the frustration though but I don't think a discount is the way to go. How much would you discount? Do you take into account the amount of time waiting for a new camera affected an individual's business? It sounds a bit messy.

Possibly not the way to go, but something kind of perk is needed if Blackmagic want to keep the long-waiters as customers. Possibly giving them an option to jump to the head of the queue for a Pocket Cinema Camera would be a solution, but then that would upset existing Pocket pre-orderers.

Why is it's always the early adopts and the most enthusiastic that get the most grief?

Post by post the same queries the same frustration the same blame games and the same ingenuity to be back to square one with the same question: When i get my Camera??
Nothing doing except that BMD comes out with an official statement....

Some good and not so good news about the Cameras!
Check them out:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/26/blac ... ship-soon/


http://www.televisual.com/news-detail/B ... -3068.html

however we expect to ship the first quantities of this model before the end of August.

So we have to wait again for 3-6 month to receive our cameras?
I hope you send my camera to (United Broadcast in Dubai) with them because I'm the first one who bought with our Reseller (United Broadcast).

I hope it's a surprise from BlackMagic, and we receive our cameras in early August

"Blackmagic Design is making significant progress in production of the new Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera and Blackmagic Production Camera 4K. ...

How in the World can an official announcement declare "significant progress in production" in one sentence and admit the imminent miss of the shipping d8 in another? I just don't get it...

I guess they define "production" different from you/us. I'd say production is the process where source materials get into a black box and some product comes out. But you could see production as the whole process from the first prototype to the final product. In the latter sense BM is actually making "progress in production", but in the more common sense the production hasn't really started yet.

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

For those of you who have a sense of humor:

It's ironic that one of the people who qualifies for such a reward is ... me!

Again, just joking! But it's pretty funny when you think about it.

I think Marc H. & Theodore P. will especially appreciate the humor in this. At least I hope so.

OK, putting humor aside, back to more serious matters ...

-

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

For those of you who have a sense of humor:

It's ironic that one of the people who qualifies for such a reward is ... me!

Again, just joking! But it's pretty funny when you think about it.

I think Marc H. & Theodore P. will especially appreciate the humor in this. At least I hope so.

OK, putting humor aside, back to more serious matters ...

-

I actually started to call you out by name as being the very person Andrew was describing. Could Stockholm Syndrome explain it Peter?

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

For those of you who have a sense of humor:

It's ironic that one of the people who qualifies for such a reward is ... me!

Again, just joking! But it's pretty funny when you think about it.

I think Marc H. & Theodore P. will especially appreciate the humor in this. At least I hope so.

OK, putting humor aside, back to more serious matters ...

-

I actually started to call you out by name as being the very person Andrew was describing. Could Hostage Syndrom explain it Peter?

Yes!

-

I, for one, want the best possible quality straight away and if that means a delay, well, so be it.

As of l8, I have been noticing the join d8s of posters. If you had joined in 2012, I would have a gr8er appreciation for your opinions concerning BMD shipping delays. However, you are over a year l8 to the dance and possibly lack a grasp of what real hard core w8ing is all about. And if you think w8ing = better quality, you might consider a rethink.

Okay, you got me there. I only signed up a few days ago but I've been lurking for a few months now and have been well aware of the "dance". I just think people need to calm down and not jump to conclusions and we really need to stop being vicious with each other. This should be an encouraging community, not one where people are ready to throttle each other after one post.

Happy to say i'm a very positive person! But this is outrageous... Waited over a year for bmcc, cancelled it due to the anouncement of bmpc 4k and goïng towards a 2 year wait (hope not). Baby's learn to walk and talk in that amount of time!

Just hoping for believable details from bmd. Boy am i gonna cradle that thing when I finally have it!

Happy to say i'm a very positive person! But this is outrageous... Waited over a year for bmcc, cancelled it due to the anouncement of bmpc 4k and goïng towards a 2 year wait (hope not). Baby's learn to walk and talk in that amount of time!

Just hoping for believable details from bmd. Boy am i gonna cradle that thing when I finally have it!

I'm waiting for the 4K model myself, but I never had an order for the BMCC. I have high hopes for the 4K image, although I'm not sure if it'll be "better" than the BMCC. As John said, he prefers the extra dynamic range of the BMCC over the extra resolution of the 4K.

But as some wiser person than I once said, the best camera is the camera you have on you. The BMCC is readily available for purchase in some stores and Ebay now. When you get the 4K camera, what if only a few months later they announced 4K with extra dynamic range but rolling shutter, or 4K with high frame rates? There'll always be something better just around the corner.

Happy to say i'm a very positive person! But this is outrageous... Waited over a year for bmcc, cancelled it due to the anouncement of bmpc 4k and goïng towards a 2 year wait (hope not). Baby's learn to walk and talk in that amount of time!

Just hoping for believable details from bmd. Boy am i gonna cradle that thing when I finally have it!

I'm waiting for the 4K model myself, but I never had an order for the BMCC. I have high hopes for the 4K image, although I'm not sure if it'll be "better" than the BMCC. As John said, he prefers the extra dynamic range of the BMCC over the extra resolution of the 4K.

But as some wiser person than I once said, the best camera is the camera you have on you. The BMCC is readily available for purchase in some stores and Ebay now. When you get the 4K camera, what if only a few months later they announced 4K with extra dynamic range but rolling shutter, or 4K with high frame rates? There'll always be something better just around the corner.

Right you are! Ordered the 4K to be somewhat future proof but good is good. Filmed several times with bmcc and it is an amazing machine. Dynamic range of bmpc 4k wil be more than good enough and the pocket camera has advantages of its own.

As for high frame rates; i can wait with that untill the overkill slo mo hype is over. Haven't yet found an original way to implement that in my productions and if a cliënt specifically request super slomo I will rent a camera accordingly.

Love you blackmagic design! I'm just a little bit angry with you right now..

I'm waiting for the 4K model myself, but I never had an order for the BMCC. I have high hopes for the 4K image, although I'm not sure if it'll be "better" than the BMCC. As John said, he prefers the extra dynamic range of the BMCC over the extra resolution of the 4K.

It really just depends on what's important to you. DR is more important to me, but for many, the global shutter or the Super 35 sensor size of the 4k is "better". It's not as black and white as "this one is the best". It depends on what you need your camera to do.

jb

With Magic Lantern hack, the 5d mark iii is able to produce 14 stops of dynamic range as of now! sorry i m just pointing towards what is happening with the 5d as i m one of the user of that camera AND yes i can say after the hack it is giving me much more DR than RED and ARRI. Although not all information at EOSHD is credible as it is the case with almost all forums.
tc

So 1 stop of DR is what turns a high end DSLR into a cinematic powerhouse?

Who is saying 1 stop of DR turns a DSLR into a cinematic powerhouse exactly? I have no idea where you got that from.

Usable DR with the stock Canon video mode is by my calculations a poor 8 stops. Not only is raw the full 11.5 stops of the sensor, it is 14bit over 8bit so when pushed around in post it doesn't fall apart. 1 stop? Try 3.5 stops, and then try another 2.5 stops in dual interline ISO scan mode for 14.

DR is only one part of image quality. In raw mode, resolution, colour, tonality, highlight roll off and compression improve too. In fact there's no compression, so nothing is lost. That sensor is a very good photographic one. Now it is a very good cinema one. Face facts my friend.

I was more referring to being 1 stop over the BMCC etc, should have clarified I guess. It appears my point was lost only a touch quicker than your post's direction. If I believed dynamic range was the be-all of video I wouldn't be hanging around the BMD site.

This is a very good point and something Blackmagic should acknowledge a little bit more.

Someone who had ordered a BMCC in April 2012, waited until July, waited until September, shifted to mFT, waited a further 9 months, still no camera, shifted pre-order to 4K Production Camera, expected July, put back to September. That is a customer with no camera for SEVENTEEN months. There are a lot of these people and I feel for them. How about a discount for the first customers, the longest waiters?

I have no sympathy for someone who keeps swapping pre-orders to newer products as they are announced. No one put a gun to their head. I'm not implying they are stupid either, but when you keep swapping pre-orders to newer products you must know that you'll keep waiting. That's what happens.

I'm waiting for the 4K model myself, but I never had an order for the BMCC. I have high hopes for the 4K image, although I'm not sure if it'll be "better" than the BMCC. As John said, he prefers the extra dynamic range of the BMCC over the extra resolution of the 4K.

It really just depends on what's important to you. DR is more important to me, but for many, the global shutter or the Super 35 sensor size of the 4k is better. It's not as black and white as "this one is the best". It depends on what you need your camera to do.

jb

You know what JB people are talking much about a stop less DR in 4k model which i think in any case wont be that bad in comparison to any DSLR as of today. But what i m more concerned about is the ASA numbers, people are suggesting this model to be a little less sensitive to light, So does it mean i wont be able to use this camera without a lighting setup, sometimes i do some shots on my glidecam where it's impossible to light my subject, I also do some indoors and outdoors without lighting even reflectors sometimes.....So the question is Will this Camera work in those situations?

You know what JB people are talking much about a stop less DR in 4k model which i think in any case wont be that bad in comparison to any DSLR as of today. But what i m more concerned about is the ASA numbers, people are suggesting this model to be a little less sensitive to light, So does it mean i wont be able to use this camera without a lighting setup, sometimes i do some shots on my glidecam where it's impossible to light my subject, I also do some indoors and outdoors without lighting even reflectors sometimes.....So the question is Will this Camera work in those situations?

This is such a vague question I can't even begin to answer it. Firstly because the 4K specs are still a work in progress, but secondly, I can't talk about what you would do in your situation in terms of lighting and what you'd be happy with accepting.

Light is what we capture. Even if I'm not plugging in a light or using a reflector I still "light" by influencing the staging...where the actors stand and block. I could light a scene with a very low ISO by having the actors stage near a window. In a basement with no windows then it won't matter what the ISO is, it's not going to work without lighting, be it pracs of film fixtures.

It's never been a secret that the 4K would have a sensor that wasn't natively as fast as the BMCC. Firstly it's a different sensor altogether and any sensor with a global shutter will generally be slower. It's also a spec that hasn't been locked off.

jb

You know what JB people are talking much about a stop less DR in 4k model which i think in any case wont be that bad in comparison to any DSLR as of today. But what i m more concerned about is the ASA numbers, people are suggesting this model to be a little less sensitive to light, So does it mean i wont be able to use this camera without a lighting setup, sometimes i do some shots on my glidecam where it's impossible to light my subject, I also do some indoors and outdoors without lighting even reflectors sometimes.....So the question is Will this Camera work in those situations?

This is such a vague question I can't even begin to answer it. Firstly because the 4K specs are still a work in progress, but secondly, I can't talk about what you would do in your situation in terms of lighting and what you'd be happy with accepting.

Light is what we capture. Even if I'm not plugging in a light or using a reflector I still "light" by influencing the staging...where the actors stand and block. I could light a scene with a very low ISO by having the actors stage near a window. In a basement with no windows then it won't matter what the ISO is, it's not going to work without lighting, be it pracs of film fixtures.

It's never been a secret that the 4K would have a sensor that wasn't natively as fast as the BMCC. Firstly it's a different sensor altogether and any sensor with a global shutter will generally be slower. It's also a spec that hasn't been locked off.

jb

Ultimately the Vague question is appropriately answered here.... Thanx
I think i can live with a stop less of Dynamic range "Unlike you", but as you yourself had suggested in your blog, " There is also a slight difference in the native ISO. It’s not really been mapped out yet, but it looks like the camera will be a smidge less sensitive in terms of ISO" so i was just trying to figure out the "less sensitive" theory coz in certain situation we have to work within the bounds of available light.

so i was just trying to figure out the "less sensitive" theory coz in certain situation we have to work within the bounds of available light.

I shoot available light all the time as a preference.

jb

So the question is Will this Camera work in those situations?

Steadicam operators have been working with film cameras and film stocks that are less sensitive than the BMPC. It's also common practice to light sets with Steadicams in mind, though it does require some forethought and care.

So how much less sensitive is likely to be be? I would have thought a bigger senser size would have been better.

So how much less sensitive is likely to be be? I would have thought a bigger senser size would have been better.

Bigger sensor yes but also more pixels to squeeze into it and more circuitry around the pixels for global shutter. All combined it makes the pixels smaller.

The KineRAW Mini has a 4K Super 35mm sensor which delivers 1080p and I found the sensitivity on that chip to be pretty good, but it had a rolling shutter.

John is right, it isn't black and white, it depends what feature your shooting prioritises.

CMOSIS make a 4K Super 35mm sensor with global shutter, and I have seen samples from this, it is very sharp. Not sure if this is the sensor Blackmagic are using but the specs match. There's also an APS-C sensor by Aptina which does 4K. I personally think all of them have their work cut out competing with Sony and Canon, with their huge sensor R&D resources but the Aptina chip in the Nikon 1 is really innovative stuff... 4K raw output at 60fps on a 1" approximately Super 16mm sized chip. That CMOS in a cinema camera would be lovely.

so i was just trying to figure out the "less sensitive" theory coz in certain situation we have to work within the bounds of available light.

I shoot available light all the time as a preference.

jb

Sure, but it's not with the newly launched "BMPC 4k" that has a less sensitive chip......but anyways....Thanx!

So how much less sensitive is likely to be be? I would have thought a bigger senser size would have been better.

Bigger sensor yes but also more pixels to squeeze into it and more circuitry around the pixels for global shutter. All combined it makes the pixels smaller.

The KineRAW Mini has a 4K Super 35mm sensor which delivers 1080p and I found the sensitivity on that chip to be pretty good, but it had a rolling shutter.

John is right, it isn't black and white, it depends what feature your shooting prioritises.

CMOSIS make a 4K Super 35mm sensor with global shutter, and I have seen samples from this, it is very sharp. Not sure if this is the sensor Blackmagic are using but the specs match. There's also an APS-C sensor by Aptina which does 4K. I personally think all of them have their work cut out competing with Sony and Canon, with their huge sensor R&D resources but the Aptina chip in the Nikon 1 is really innovative stuff... 4K raw output at 60fps on a 1" approximately Super 16mm sized chip. That CMOS in a cinema camera would be lovely.

I forgot about squeezing on 4k pixels onto the sensor.

Could anamorphic modes IE 2.35 be applied to the BMCC sensor which is 16.64 mm x 14.04 mm Only 15.6 mm x 8.8 mm is actually used. In anamorphic mode I imagine it could get you get close to 4k unsqueezed and although without global shutter you'd still get 13 stops and better senstivity.

The sensor in the BMCC is perfect for anamorphic. Resolution would upscale to 4K very well with one. I asked for an anamorphic mode, but since it doesn't even have audio meters yet don't hold your breath

Question for, John Brawley. In your experience shooting with the BMPC 4K, what do you like most about the camera? Do you still prefer the BMCC 2.5K?

I prefer the greater DR of the BMCC over the increased resolution of the 4K.

jb

You aren't sacrificing DR for resolution; you're trading it for a global shutter.

The Achilles' heel of the original BMCC is it's awful sensor size, which the 4K model addresses to a large part.

Question for, John Brawley. In your experience shooting with the BMPC 4K, what do you like most about the camera? Do you still prefer the BMCC 2.5K?

I prefer the greater DR of the BMCC over the increased resolution of the 4K.

jb

You aren't sacrificing DR for resolution; you're trading it for a global shutter.

The Achilles' heel of the original BMCC is it's awful sensor size, which the 4K model addresses to a large part.

Surely if the sensor size of the BMCC is a problem, then the pocket camera is even more of a problem is it?

Surely if the sensor size of the BMCC is a problem, then the pocket camera is even more of a problem is it?

Well I surely think so, but then again I was never interested in the pocket camera. I think people are excited about the rest of the specs, but in practice I think its usefulness is going to be extremely limited.

Surely if the sensor size of the BMCC is a problem, then the pocket camera is even more of a problem is it?

Well I surely think so, but then again I was never interested in the pocket camera. I think people are excited about the rest of the specs, but in practice I think its usefulness is going to be extremely limited.

I'm not too fussed with sensor size to be honest! Extremely shallow depth of field when shooting wide open can be more of a hinderance when in low light situations. Yes field of view might be a little awkward at times but 12mm should be pretty adequate to remedy that.

]
You aren't sacrificing DR for resolution; you're trading it for a global shutter.

The Achilles' heel of the original BMCC is it's awful sensor size, which the 4K model addresses to a large part.

You might see it that way.

But the sensor in the original BMCC isn't made in a 4K super 35 size. So it's that Achilles heel size or nothing. Which do you prefer ? Seems like a few thousand BMD customers are ok with that.

They had to find a new sensor off the shelf to do 4K super 35 with a global shutter.

Fine and well for forum experts to say what should and shouldn't be done but the thing is there's actually not a lot of options for off the shelf sensors. Even off the shelf sensors still takes months of work to get going. The Digital Bolex is a year behind now on their off the shelf sensor.

To get the better performance of cameras like the Alexa or the RED Dragon, you need to actually commission your own sensor from scratch. That's more like a 2 year cycle and MILLIONS of dollars.

jb

Just curious and I don't know what the problems are and out of my depth here so why is it dificult to implement an off the shelf sensor? I can imagine you would have to work out the colour science but I would have thought lining up a test picture from the BMCC and tweaking it wouldn't be that complicated for someone who knows how. After all the colours don't have to match exactly to the BMCC. Could they also add in programable looks like arri or red for example? That would be really neat.

But the sensor in the original BMCC isn't made in a 4K super 35 size. So it's that Achilles heel size or nothing.

Last year, that was the case, yes. This year the option is Achilles heel size or Super 35 size. Someday we will get a full-frame size. Buy (or don't buy) what works for you. Sure, thousands of people bought into the Achilles heel size when it was the only option available. Now that there's another choice that dramatically increases the usefulness of the EF mount, I'm guessing interest in the 4K camera will far outweigh interest in the Achilles heel camera. I'm not expecting a full-frame option next year (though it's what many people truly want), but when such a camera appears, it will likely steal the thunder away from the current 4K camera. That's just how the cycle works.

Anyway, the original point I made to you was that it was the global shutter effectively reducing the DR of the 4K camera, not the fact that it has more resolution. We definitely all want maximum DR possible, but will one stop difference be enough to keep people from buying it when everything else about the camera is superior? Personally, I don't think it will. Of course they actually need to get these things shipped first.

Just curious and I don't know what the problems are and out of my depth here so why is it dificult to implement an off the shelf sensor? I can imagine you would have to work out the colour science but I would have thought lining up a test picture from the BMCC and tweaking it wouldn't be that complicated for someone who knows how. After all the colours don't have to match exactly to the BMCC. Could they also add in programable looks like arri or red for example? That would be really neat.

The camera's hardware has to control the sensor, setting things like shutter speed and gain, pull data off of the sensor, collect the data into a frame, combine the data with the shot metadata which includes things like the Bayer pattern array and exposure settings, and then write it out to the memory controller. That's the simpleton version.

It's true that the hardest part is figuring out how to get all of the various components working together, but still there's quite a bit to do in data management alone.

That's of course not including useful features like focus peaking, which of course doesn't come magically off of the sensor, it's computed in the camera. Zebras, also. If you actually stop to think about it for a minute you'll realize quite quickly that the amount of stuff that you have to do to make a camera actually WORK is large. After that, you get to start on making it work correctly, and if you're smart and follow Knuth's algorithm, only then do you worry about making it work WELL.

But the sensor in the original BMCC isn't made in a 4K super 35 size. So it's that Achilles heel size or nothing.

Last year, that was the case, yes. This year the option is Achilles heel size or Super 35 size. Someday we will get a full-frame size. Buy (or don't buy) what works for you. Sure, thousands of people bought into the Achilles heel size when it was the only option available. Now that there's another choice that dramatically increases the usefulness of the EF mount, I'm guessing interest in the 4K camera will far outweigh interest in the Achilles heel camera. I'm not expecting a full-frame option next year (though it's what many people truly want), but when such a camera appears, it will likely steal the thunder away from the current 4K camera. That's just how the cycle works.

Anyway, the original point I made to you was that it was the global shutter effectively reducing the DR of the 4K camera, not the fact that it has more resolution. We definitely all want maximum DR possible, but will one stop difference be enough to keep people from buying it when everything else about the camera is superior? Personally, I don't think it will. Of course they actually need to get these things shipped first.

DSLR users care about FF, no one else here does. I really doubt BMD will make an FF camera, ever.
I also believe your perception of superior is a tad skewed. If price wasn't an option I wouldn't get the BMPC over the BMCC, I would rather work in 2.5K with more DR and deal with Rolling Shutter.

DSLR users care about FF, no one else here does.

Except those involved in high end filmmaking trying to get something cheaper with similar abilities.
I see it the other way around, those who can't afford s35 cameras (I do not mean DSLRs) tend to trashtalk the format of s35 and FF. I on the other hand don't like DSLRs, but I love 65mm, s35 and anamorphics.

S35 is the same as ASP-C. It's far from Full Frame.

Last year, that was the case, yes. This year the option is Achilles heel size or Super 35 size. Someday we will get a full-frame size. Buy (or don't buy) what works for you.

To spell it out.

The 4k camera has a different sensor to the BMCC. It is a different manufacturer. It is a different technology. If BMD used the rolling shutter version of the 4K s35 sensor it STILL wouldn't have the same DR as the 2.5k.

There isn't a sensor that can match the 2.5k for DR that is 4k and super 35 that is "off the shelf"

JB.

The camera's hardware has to control the sensor, setting things like shutter speed and gain, pull data off of the sensor, collect the data into a frame, combine the data with the shot metadata which includes things like the Bayer pattern array and exposure settings, and then write it out to the memory controller. That's the simpleton version.

It's true that the hardest part is figuring out how to get all of the various components working together, but still there's quite a bit to do in data management alone.

That's of course not including useful features like focus peaking, which of course doesn't come magically off of the sensor, it's computed in the camera. Zebras, also. If you actually stop to think about it for a minute you'll realize quite quickly that the amount of stuff that you have to do to make a camera actually WORK is large. After that, you get to start on making it work correctly, and if you're smart and follow Knuth's algorithm, only then do you worry about making it work WELL.

Black Magic would have built all that into the equation and I believe the hold up is probably perfecting the colour algorythms to match the BMCC At least I would hope so and a reason we need an update to know where the holdup is So we can all picture in our minds what to expect in terms of delays now. I think that is only fair and reasonable

To spell it out.

The 4k camera has a different sensor to the BMCC. It is a different manufacturer. It is a different technology. If BMD used the rolling shutter version of the 4K s35 sensor it STILL wouldn't have the same DR as the 2.5k.

There isn't a sensor that can match the 2.5k for DR that is 4k and super 35 that is "off the shelf"

JB.

We're spinning wheels here, friend. I'm not contesting anything you are saying here; obviously that's how the two cameras are set up. All I was saying is that the incorporation of a global shutter comes at a cost of DR; not that the two sensors are identical. Resolution can affect sensitivity if you're just cramming more pixels into a smaller space (and everything else is equal), but in this situation, it's countered by the fact that the overall area of the 4K sensor is larger. Thus, between the two cameras, the effective results are that you're trading DR for the benefits of a global shutter. The added resolution is just a fantastic bonus.

Each individual's preference between the two options is going to be a personal choice; there is no "right" answer. You mentioned you prefer having more DR over more resolution and a global shutter. My gut says that not even considering DR or global shutter, having an ~APS-C sized sensor is going to make Canon glass way more attractive to BMC users and the 4K camera is going to be the one people will to flock to. Having a larger sensor isn't as much about DOF as it is field of view. And yes, I realize you can get MFT lenses for the 2.5K camera and get similar results - just like you can adapt s16 lenses for the pocket camera. But the overwhelming majority of glass that's floating around out there has been designed for FF sensors; that's what people own and that's what people are going to want to use. Why did RED bother to make an EF mount for the Epic if it's a pro-level camera and there is fantastic pro-level PL glass to use? Because everyone and their mom has FF glass. It's cheap, it's great quality, it's proven, and it's available in every camera store on the planet.

Why do people listen to mp3s when CDs are higher quality? Why do people watch streaming downloads when Blu-rays look far superior? It's not always about what's "best."

Another way to look at it is that BMD was forced to release the MFT version of the camera because pairing it with FF glass gives ridiculous results. With a much larger sensor, that problem has largely been resolved. Add to that the 4K camera eliminates rolling shutter artifacts and I think for a lot of people, it's going to be a no-brainer. I believe people will be willing to give up 1 stop of DR for those two things. Of course only time will tell, but I am content with my prediction.

The only reason i see why people are so interested in this camera is its ability to shoot 4k imagery for less $ and so they are willing to loose a little DR and sensitivity for that. I think v1 BMCC is still worth a shot no matter what sensor size it has, i m stunned with its IQ and i don't think its gonna loose its shine any time sooner or until BMD launches a new camera in 2014 with 4k and 13 stops of DR including other goodies. Although no evidence is in public domain as to what this 4k one is capable of in terms of IQ, and if it comes out not that good as expected; people will surely turn their horses to the v1 for its ability to shoot great images with greater DR and good low light performance.

GLOBAL SHUTTER and S35 SENSOR:
I think if BMD would have launched a Camera with 4k resolution but without Global shutter and S35 sensor it would have generated the same buzz and curiosity among the people. And the tag line "4k for 4k" would have done the same BLACKMAGIC over the consciousness of people.

Taking into account what is being said and what is happening with the delay, it seems to me that BMD is knee deep in a situation that they once again got bitch slapped with an unforeseen issue. As JB referred to with the whole "off the shelf" development thing, it is almost a sure thing that BMD is dealing with how a company like itself differs from the big guys who can afford to throw money at developing things in house and percure and develop sensor technology on a level that puts BMD at a disadvantage. 4K for $4k may go over well in public relations and propaganda, but when the development team has to deliver and they find out how deep the rabbit hole is, we end up here.... waiting in a deafening silence. I hope as end users, BMD learns from this and can keep thier NAB hype in check, else they begin to be known as the company that cried "wolf" one too many times. It's quite evident that many here had been hanging onto the release date only to see the 4k wolf did not emerge. Instead we hear of the pocket chihuahua cam and even it will be trickled out to market. Why throw a launch party if you know there are no horses, just some silly people with coconuts.

We're spinning wheels here, friend. I'm not contesting anything you are saying here; obviously that's how the two cameras are set up. All I was saying is that the incorporation of a global shutter comes at a cost of DR; not that the two sensors are identical. Resolution can affect sensitivity if you're just cramming more pixels into a smaller space (and everything else is equal), but in this situation, it's countered by the fact that the overall area of the 4K sensor is larger. Thus, between the two cameras, the effective results are that you're trading DR for the benefits of a global shutter. The added resolution is just a fantastic bonus.

It's way more complex than that, but if that make sense to you then so be it.

Another way to look at it is that BMD was forced to release the MFT version of the camera because pairing it with FF glass gives ridiculous results. )

Were they forced ? Or did it just make perfect sense to open the mount to a non proprietary dumb mount that could be adapted to almost anything (unlike EF) and was actually close to the target sensor size in the first place ?

jb

This forum seems to be sort of a Mekka for "armchair engineers" these days...

Were they forced ? Or did it just make perfect sense to open the mount to a non proprietary dumb mount that could be adapted to almost anything (unlike EF) and was actually close to the target sensor size in the first place ?

Sigh... did someone put a gun to their head and demand they make it? No. But did it make business sense to actually release a mount for a camera that was actually close to the target sensor size? Yes. So why did they release the original camera with an EF mount if an MFT mount makes more sense? Because everyone obsessed with dSLR shooting (the market this camera competes with) already has Canon glass. Unfortunately, EF glass paired with a comparatively small sensor makes for a pretty ridiculous result.

It's the whole reason crop factor is so important even though you like to casually dismiss it. It's not just about "comparing the focal length equivalent on a full frame sensor;" it's understanding the lens coverage of glass you own and what the resulting field of view will be on your camera. Of course there are solutions for working with smaller sensor sizes, but most people aren't going to want to fuss with it. They want to slap the lenses they own on the camera body they purchased and go shoot something. If the widest lens someone owns makes the shot look like a close up portrait, they're going to be pretty limited as to what they can shoot. The Production Camera 4K solves this issue to a large degree.

Yes. So why did they release the original camera with an EF mount if an MFT mount makes more sense? Because everyone obsessed with dSLR shooting (the market this camera competes with) already has Canon glass. Unfortunately, EF glass paired with a comparatively small sensor makes for a pretty ridiculous result.

It's the whole reason crop factor is so important even though you like to casually dismiss it. It's not just about "comparing the focal length equivalent on a full frame sensor;" it's understanding the lens coverage of glass you own and what the resulting field of view will be on your camera. Of course there are solutions for working with smaller sensor sizes, but most people aren't going to want to fuss with it. They want to slap the lenses they own on the camera body they purchased and go shoot something. If the widest lens someone owns makes the shot look like a close up portrait, they're going to be pretty limited as to what they can shoot.

The moment you start shooting with the BMCC, the technobabble neurosis goes out the window and you bathe in the glory of the incredible cinema quality images.
I did a shot for an effect with Tokina at 11mm (look of an 18mm approx on APS-C) with Speed Booster on the BMCC MFT and it was the right the shot for the context in the scene but much too wide for a normal wide.
Certainly for feature film work any of the BMCCs will do for my needs. Lucky, lucky times

Jules

Am I the only one that doesn't care about the delay just as long as they get the camera right?