Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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IVIaverick52

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostFri Aug 02, 2013 5:25 pm

Chiaroscuro wrote:Has the BMCC had overheating issues?... I don't know. It is however my understanding that outputting uncompressed raw to a SSD/SD card is much less CPU intensive than having to encode to some codec first (see magiclantern forum). ProRes encoding - I think - is also less CPU intensive than say DNxHD encoding. It remains to be seen then how hard it will be for the BMPCC's CPU to compress raw frames.


I haven't heard of it having any overheating issues, it just has that internal fan which may or may not be helpful in cooling the sensor. I'm sure they left a fan out of the pocket for a reason, I don't think it will cause any problems.
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focuspulling

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostFri Aug 02, 2013 5:27 pm

IVIaverick52 wrote:
focuspulling wrote:
Whirled_Peas wrote:Granted, this is all academic talk, as we will not know for sure just how well all of the BMPCC's features work in the field until enough of them get out into common usage.

I'd bet money on overheating issues. Notice that the BMCC has an actual physical fan blower, but the BMPC doesn't?

The cinema cam has a higher resolution, higher RAW data rate, and pretty sure different CMOS manufacturer so those things could account for that.

On another note though, did everyone here check their email? Two sweet things to note, the 2.5K BMCC is now only $1,995, and they updated the bayer algorithm in the pocket to "increase sharpness in prores footage". Thoughts?

Not sure you read the email correctly; he mentioned the latter improvement only with respect to the BMCC (as I am reading it).
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostFri Aug 02, 2013 5:32 pm

Chiaroscuro wrote:ProRes encoding - I think - is also less CPU intensive than say DNxHD encoding.

ProRes and DNxHD are both not very complex - at least compared to AVCHD or H264. There are DSPs that can do it with really low power consumption.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:08 am

What's up w/ my Pocket?!?

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 9:22 am

Hi - first time post so please be gentle on me :-)

I'm picking up my Pocket Cinema Camera shortly in NZ. I've been shooting on modded GH2s for a while and wanted to get some better DR etc so chose to replace one of my GH2s with a BMPCC.

Shooting in RAW really interests me. Now I know you cant record RAW to the SD card at the moment and I have a question.

Will the HDMI send out RAW currently so that I can use an external capture device? I read that it outputs 10bit 4:2:2 but is that the same as RAW?

Again, please excuse me if this is a silly question. I'm completely new to the world of 10bit and RAW.

Thanks

F.K.

Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 9:38 am

origincreative wrote:Hi - first time post so please be gentle on me :-)

I'm picking up my Pocket Cinema Camera shortly in NZ. I've been shooting on modded GH2s for a while and wanted to get some better DR etc so chose to replace one of my GH2s with a BMPCC.

Shooting in RAW really interests me. Now I know you cant record RAW to the SD card at the moment and I have a question.

Will the HDMI send out RAW currently so that I can use an external capture device? I read that it outputs 10bit 4:2:2 but is that the same as RAW?

Again, please excuse me if this is a silly question. I'm completely new to the world of 10bit and RAW.

Thanks


Hi 4:2:2 means that it is an compressed Image. The Luminance Chanel of that image is double the Size then the Color Channels in 4:4:4 it would be the Same size and in 4:2:0 it would be a fourth of the Size if I remember correctly.
However even if it was a 4:4:4 output it would still contain less data then DNG files.
The DNG recording will be only available on SD Cards, as it is a Raw standard you can think of it as Bypassing internal Image Processing of the Camera. So unlike ProRes or other Standards it has to be processed further on your computer. However HDMI and even HD-SDI are Interfaces designed to send strams of processed images and not any type of Data. Therefore it is not Possible to record DNG Files over any of these connections.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 9:56 am

F.K. wrote:
origincreative wrote:Hi - first time post so please be gentle on me :-)

I'm picking up my Pocket Cinema Camera shortly in NZ. I've been shooting on modded GH2s for a while and wanted to get some better DR etc so chose to replace one of my GH2s with a BMPCC.

Shooting in RAW really interests me. Now I know you cant record RAW to the SD card at the moment and I have a question.

Will the HDMI send out RAW currently so that I can use an external capture device? I read that it outputs 10bit 4:2:2 but is that the same as RAW?

Again, please excuse me if this is a silly question. I'm completely new to the world of 10bit and RAW.

Thanks

Thanks for the lesson!
Hi 4:2:2 means that it is an compressed Image. The Luminance Chanel of that image is double the Size then the Color Channels in 4:4:4 it would be the Same size and in 4:2:0 it would be a fourth of the Size if I remember correctly.
However even if it was a 4:4:4 output it would still contain less data then DNG files.
The DNG recording will be only available on SD Cards, as it is a Raw standard you can think of it as Bypassing internal Image Processing of the Camera. So unlike ProRes or other Standards it has to be processed further on your computer. However HDMI and even HD-SDI are Interfaces designed to send strams of processed images and not any type of Data. Therefore it is not Possible to record DNG Files over any of these connections.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 12:37 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Whirled_Peas wrote:Granted, this is all academic talk, as we will not know for sure just how well all of the BMPCC's features work in the field until enough of them get out into common usage.

I'd bet money on overheating issues. Notice that the BMCC has an actual physical fan blower, but the BMPC doesn't?


they've already debunked that. the camera already shoots raw technically. then after that the CPU and several components that i can't remember the name of, use lots of battery power to convert the raw into h.264. ML removes this processor, making the CPU work less, making it not overheat
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:18 pm

Recording raw is something very different from recording uncompressed:

Raw means that you get the unaltered data directly from the sensor, that is bayer pattern single-color dots that have to be mixed together to create true-color pixels (called "debayering"). The process of debayering can be tweaked to get the most detail, or to avoid moiré, etc.

Capturing the uncompressed output through sdi/hdmi means that you let the camera do the debayering and tone mapping, and record the true-color pixels. This is still _very_ good material, but it already has lost some information that was contained in the raw data. And of course it's "only" 10 bit, while raw is (i believe) 12 bit resolution...

ProRes, DNxHD and other high quality Codecs reduce the amount of data even further, but compared to the uncompressed sdi/hdmi output there's not much additional loss. You just can't compare these Codecs to the consumer formats HDV, AVCHD, H264! ProRes & Co are built to be used in editing, they try to retain as much of the "unseen" information as possible, e.g. details in the shadows that will only get visible after grading. H264 & Co are built to store and transfer finalised imagery at the lowest possible bandwidth; these codecs try to remove all "unseen" information, material coded that way allows only limited grading after the fact.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:35 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:Recording raw is something very different from recording uncompressed:

Raw means that you get the unaltered data directly from the sensor, that is bayer pattern single-color dots that have to be mixed together to create true-color pixels (called "debayering"). The process of debayering can be tweaked to get the most detail, or to avoid moiré, etc.

Capturing the uncompressed output through sdi/hdmi means that you let the camera do the debayering and tone mapping, and record the true-color pixels. This is still _very_ good material, but it already has lost some information that was contained in the raw data. And of course it's "only" 10 bit, while raw is (i believe) 12 bit resolution...

ProRes, DNxHD and other high quality Codecs reduce the amount of data even further, but compared to the uncompressed sdi/hdmi output there's not much additional loss. You just can't compare these Codecs to the consumer formats HDV, AVCHD, H264! ProRes & Co are built to be used in editing, they try to retain as much of the "unseen" information as possible, e.g. details in the shadows that will only get visible after grading. H264 & Co are built to store and transfer finalised imagery at the lowest possible bandwidth; these codecs try to remove all "unseen" information, material coded that way allows only limited grading after the fact.

A question from curiosity, then: why do you think Blackmagic went with ProRes only in the Pocket, leaving out DNxHD even though they include it in the bigger brothers? I suppose it's just my vehement dislike for Apple that makes me loath using ProRes (which we must all admit is not at its peak as a codec after the decline of FinalCut) -- but I suspect also that DNxHD is a superior technology, in which Apple as usual gave us the inferior technology with commercial enthusiasm to compensate...
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:47 pm

focuspulling wrote:... ProRes (which we must all admit is not at its peak as a codec after the decline of FinalCut) -- but I suspect also that DNxHD is a superior technology, in which Apple as usual gave us the inferior technology with commercial enthusiasm to compensate...


Whatever.

ProRes HQ produces very high quality results, and is in use all over the world in high-end productions. Maybe not good enough for you, but more than good enough for countless productions every day.

For those interested in learning more about ProRes, see:
http://images.apple.com/finalcutpro/doc ... r_2012.pdf

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Last edited by Peter J. DeCrescenzo on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:49 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
focuspulling wrote:... ProRes (which we must all admit is not at its peak as a codec after the decline of FinalCut) -- but I suspect also that DNxHD is a superior technology, in which Apple as usual gave us the inferior technology with commercial enthusiasm to compensate...


Whatever.

ProRes HQ produces very high quality results, and is in use all over the world in high-end productions. Maybe not good enough for you, but more than good enough for countless productions every day.

-

That cranky reply advanced this discussion 0%. There are differences, and announcing to the world that they're meaningless is...meaningless.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:54 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:
focuspulling wrote:... ProRes (which we must all admit is not at its peak as a codec after the decline of FinalCut) -- but I suspect also that DNxHD is a superior technology, in which Apple as usual gave us the inferior technology with commercial enthusiasm to compensate...


Whatever.

ProRes HQ produces very high quality results, and is in use all over the world in high-end productions. Maybe not good enough for you, but more than good enough for countless productions every day.

-

That cranky reply advanced this discussion 0%. There are differences, and announcing to the world that they're meaningless is...meaningless.


Whatever the differences, relative to the capabilities of a camera such as the BMPCC pocket camera, they are mostly a moot point.

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:57 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Whatever the differences, relative to the capabilities of a camera such as the BMPCC pocket camera, they are mostly a moot point.

Again, this is an unintelligent, lackadaisical response. There are different compression efficiencies too between the codecs, with direct impact on a very, very limited storage medium like the SD card. One among many issues. Pity you don't see them.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 5:58 pm

ProRes and DNxHD is pretty much the same stuff under the hood. Both using wavelet compression, just like supposedly Cineform (which adds bunch of metadata) or red raw. Difference being red raw applies wavelet to raw and not debayered.
We can of course encode dnxhd universally, while we cannot do so officially on pc.
Also, in my experience ProRes handles alphas a bit more conveniently, while dnxhd is wonky as far as alpha channels are concerned. Cineform has dropped the ball as a professional format ever since gopro bought them. Makes me sad.
Last edited by Dmitry Kitsov on Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:00 pm

Dmitry Kitsov wrote:ProRes and DNxHD is pretty much the same stuff under the hood. Both using wavelet compression, just like supposedly Cineform (which adds bunch of metadata) or red raw. Difference being red raw applies wavelet to raw and not debayered.

Thanks, that's interesting (and better than the shrugging). I'm particularly interested in compression ratios, though. I think DNxHD is a more open standard for being able to elect your own compromises, whereas (true to Apple form) ProRes has miniscule control over parameters.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:01 pm

I don't agree with the notion of a "decline of Final Cut" and consider ProRes as quite robust. But, that is an argument which, to be sure, falls outside the scope of this discussion.

My concern is with the process of compressing raw in-camera, as will be the case with the BMPCC at a said ratio of 1.5:1 - 1.2:1 (John Brawley) and how much that process will impact on the processor of the camera. Could this maybe cause overheating and isn't it possibly the reason why BM is still working on raw recording and why we will not see it initially?
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:06 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Dmitry Kitsov wrote:ProRes and DNxHD is pretty much the same stuff under the hood. Both using wavelet compression, just like supposedly Cineform (which adds bunch of metadata) or red raw. Difference being red raw applies wavelet to raw and not debayered.

Thanks, that's interesting (and better than the shrugging). I'm particularly interested in compression ratios, though. I think DNxHD is a more open standard for being able to elect your own compromises, whereas (true to Apple form) ProRes has miniscule control over parameters.

I will disagree.
If you remove the variability of dnxhd codec not selecting the frame rate to match what app hands to it as the ProRes (and many others do) it only leaves behind the ability to chose data rate and data range (full or broadcast) - and even that setting is unpredictable, because some apps do not read those flags anyway.
In ProRes you may chose data rate, the rest is handled.
As far as quality, someone made multiple compress-decompress tests. Do not recall the results.
I am sure it is googlable.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:13 pm

I may be off here, but Blackmagic states the BMPCC will have both Prores and "lossless CinemaDNG RAW. Recording in 1920 x 1080 with choice of Film or Video Dynamic Range." The latter may not be fully implemented yet, but will be so eventually. As for Prores vs DNxHD, I would rather have Prores personally. It fits in the workflow that I use for broadcast work. Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:14 pm

I'm not quite sure how it works but is this new debayering update to sharpen prores gonna be implemented in the pocket cam too?
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:18 pm

Darkfable wrote:I'm not quite sure how it works but is this new debayering update to sharpen prores gonna be implemented in the pocket cam too?

If their grammar was fully alert, the press release implied clearly that the debayering update only would apply to the BMCC MFT and EF cameras, and not to the BMPCC.

Dmitry Kitsov wrote:If you remove the variability of dnxhd codec not selecting the frame rate to match what app hands to it as the ProRes (and many others do) it only leaves behind the ability to chose data rate and data range (full or broadcast) - and even that setting is unpredictable, because some apps do not read those flags anyway.
In ProRes you may chose data rate, the rest is handled.
As far as quality, someone made multiple compress-decompress tests. Do not recall the results.
I am sure it is googlable.

Many of us very much prefer being able to choose a codec's data rate and data range. Premiere Pro CC can handle that natively. The argument against flexibility (options) in the Apple world is confounding.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:21 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Darkfable wrote:I'm not quite sure how it works but is this new debayering update to sharpen prores gonna be implemented in the pocket cam too?

If their grammar was fully alert, the press release implied clearly that the debayering update only would apply to the BMCC MFT and EF cameras, and not to the BMPCC.

Dmitry Kitsov wrote:If you remove the variability of dnxhd codec not selecting the frame rate to match what app hands to it as the ProRes (and many others do) it only leaves behind the ability to chose data rate and data range (full or broadcast) - and even that setting is unpredictable, because some apps do not read those flags anyway.
In ProRes you may chose data rate, the rest is handled.
As far as quality, someone made multiple compress-decompress tests. Do not recall the results.
I am sure it is googlable.

Many of us very much prefer being able to choose a codec's data rate and data range. Premiere Pro CC can handle that natively. The argument against flexibility (options) in the Apple world is confounding.

But could it be the case that the pocket wasn't mentioned because it comes with it as standard? Rather than an update.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:27 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Whatever the differences, relative to the capabilities of a camera such as the BMPCC pocket camera, they are mostly a moot point.

Again, this is an unintelligent, lackadaisical response. There are different compression efficiencies too between the codecs, with direct impact on a very, very limited storage medium like the SD card. One among many issues. Pity you don't see them.


then why not enlighten us?
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 6:53 pm

Chris Daniel wrote:
focuspulling wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Whatever the differences, relative to the capabilities of a camera such as the BMPCC pocket camera, they are mostly a moot point.

Again, this is an unintelligent, lackadaisical response. There are different compression efficiencies too between the codecs, with direct impact on a very, very limited storage medium like the SD card. One among many issues. Pity you don't see them.


then why not enlighten us?

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6796&p=67433#p67429
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 7:32 pm

ok, fair enough
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 7:36 pm

I think ProRes or DNxHD is no much difference in quality, and one surely can't put one above the other generally. I've been working with Avids Media Composer for some years, and i've come to respect and trust DNxHD there. But i'm sure countless apple users have the same feelings about ProRes HQ. Having both selectable in the camera would be cool, but i'd rather have a couple more predefined quality settings, e.g. i really could use ProRes LT for some situations... Anyway: ProRes it is, and that's fine!

Regarding the debayering: i may be naiv and too trusting, but i also believe that they improved the debayering while developing the Pocket CC and now transplanted the new algorithms to the 2k5 modell, while it will already be inside the first Pocket CCs shipping. Keep in mind that they had severe problems with the original cameras sensors and had to switch to another manufacturer, maybe that brought changes in the bayer pattern and/or the debayering techniques with it. Wouldn't it be nice to see the improved debayering also solving the reds-turning-orange-bug?
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 8:03 pm

ProRes HQ produces very high quality results, and is in use all over the world in high-end productions. Maybe not good enough for you, but more than good enough for countless productions every day.

That cranky reply advanced this discussion 0%. There are differences, and announcing to the world that they're meaningless is...meaningless.




Lets see some tests ....

http://www.fallenempiredigital.com/blog/2013/02/28/avid-dnxhd-vs-apple-prores-vs-gopro-cineform-recompression-generation-loss/
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSat Aug 03, 2013 8:57 pm

focuspulling wrote:Many of us very much prefer being able to choose a codec's data rate and data range. Premiere Pro CC can handle that natively. The argument against flexibility (options) in the Apple world is confounding.

You have the flexibility of choosing the data rate in ProRes. ProRes proxy, ProRes LT, ProRes 422, ProRes HQ. the only difference is that you can do it in one interface in dnxhd. If anything I do not understand why do I have an ability to chose 720 59,94p encoding for a source of 23,976 1080p the way it is implemented in dnxhd codecs. Data range vs video range really should not exist anymore in the digital world. It all should be data range. Video range is a remnant of old analog days
Also dnxhd will not do more then 1080p. ProRes will.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 12:15 am

I'm really not all that fussed about Codecs, it's a bit crap that I don't have an Apple system but they wouldn't offer me the hardware I require. The thing is, ProRes is worlds above H264/AVCHD etc which I've been dealing with for some time now. This conversation, though interesting is largely irrelevant. How many people here will be outputing their final works in the same quality you get from either Codec?

The blessing is that it is supported in my editor of choice as an input. That's all I need.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 2:53 am

focuspulling wrote:Not sure you read the email correctly; he mentioned the latter improvement only with respect to the BMCC (as I am reading it).

Ah! You are correct. These darn cameras need to have more differentiating their names haha.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 4:16 am

focuspulling wrote: I suppose it's just my vehement dislike for Apple that makes me loath using ProRes (which we must all admit is not at its peak as a codec after the decline of FinalCut) -- but I suspect also that DNxHD is a superior technology, in which Apple as usual gave us the inferior technology with commercial enthusiasm to compensate...


I suppose that all of this is just your opinion....? you 'Suspect" DNxHD is "superior ? Based on ? your suspicion of an Apple conspiracy ?

DNxHD is pretty much the same as ProRes HQ. Similar data rate, bit depth and compression technology. They are more or less the same for most people's needs...

You might loath Apple but ProRes is more accepted and more widely used.

"like" it or not, ProRes is the defacto high end codec for production. Arri only recently added DNxHD to the Alexa,after only having ProRes for over a year. And believe it or not, it's actually harder to get ProRes going because you have to have every single product approved by Apple. Before you can sell a ProRes camera they have to vet the camera to make sure they're satisfied that the codec is correctly implemented in that device.

The only time I see DNxHD being used is as a transcode format (from ProRes !) because AVID tend to do better file sharing of media for editing stations so most multi-episodic TV still gets cut AVID.

BMD have always been an APPLE oriented company. They had one of the first Thunderbolt devices. The have the only camera that has thunderbolt.

Apple have been a large part of their success and their customer base is more than likely to be an Apple user.

jb
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Gilly

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OFF TOPIC: Render settings for Apple Pro Rez (HQ)

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 5:04 am

Render Settings for file transfer to SSD for playout on BMD Hyperdeck or Shuttle:

here are the settings for exporting a ProRes file from FCP7 for use with the HyperDecks. Please keep in mind that as the HyperDecks were not designed to accommodate this workflow I cannot guarantee that these settings will work through other applications.

Toe Export ProRes Files from FCP7:

Choose File -> Export Using QuickTime Conversion and a save menu should pop up
Select the Options button to reveal the Movie Settings menu
Select the Video Settings button to set your codec and frame rate, make sure to set Compression Type to Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Select the Video Size button from the Movie Settings menu to set your output resolution
Select the Sound Settings button from the Movie Settings menu to set your audio settings. Make sure to choose 16bit little endian and Stereo, LR for HyperDeck compatibility
Click Okay and then save save your exported file. Transfer to the HyperDeck and playback

Hope this helps. If you have any further questions, please let me know.

Best,


-- Julian Fine
Technical Support Agent
Blackmagic Design Inc.
Last edited by Gilly on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Gilly"
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John Brawley

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 6:30 am

Gilly wrote:I know this might be considered slightly off topic, but in regards to BMD's implementation of apple pro rez, it sure would be nice if the format was apple pro rez and not BMD's version of such.


Are you absolutely 100 % certain that your rendered file is Apple ProRes HQ ? If it's not that specific flavour of ProRes it wont work.

Please check you're rendering the right flavour. I don't believe you can make proprietary ProRes files.

I know that the camera will playback any ProRes HQ file, even ones that aren't recorded in the camera. I've rendered to ProRes HQ and then put the SSD drive back in the camera by accident and discovered they play.

jb
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Gilly

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 11:16 am

John Brawley wrote:
Gilly wrote:I know this might be considered slightly off topic, but in regards to BMD's implementation of apple pro rez, it sure would be nice if the format was apple pro rez and not BMD's version of such.


Are you absolutely 100 % certain that your rendered file is Apple ProRes HQ ? If it's not that specific flavour of ProRes it wont work.

Please check you're rendering the right flavour. I don't believe you can make proprietary ProRes files.

I know that the camera will playback any ProRes HQ file, even ones that aren't recorded in the camera. I've rendered to ProRes HQ and then put the SSD drive back in the camera by accident and discovered they play.

jb


I will triple check the render settings Monday. I would be glad to be wrong in this case!
"Gilly"
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 7:56 pm

Concerning playing non-BMD ProRes HQ files on a Hyperdeck: I wonder if the filename format or directory structure matters, or if the disk must be freshly formatted?

Don't know the answer myself; am curious to know.

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David Franzo

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 10:22 pm

I've searched the forum and surprisingly didn't see any results about the Komputerbay SD cards. Also the search commands don't even recognize quotation marks to indicate a full phrase for "sd card".
I am about to buy the Komputerbay 128gb 600x SD card. Does anyone own this card and can comment on its 60mb/s write speed?

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Ryan Jones

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostSun Aug 04, 2013 10:24 pm

frnz wrote:I've searched the forum and surprisingly didn't see any results about the Komputerbay SD cards. Also the search commands don't even recognize quotation marks to indicate a full phrase for "sd card".
I am about to buy the Komputerbay 128gb 600x SD card. Does anyone own this card and can comment on its 60mb/s write speed?

They're not on the approved list. Best to wait till its been confirmed they work, although they should work fine for ProRes.
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Chris Quevedo

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 12:04 am

I spoke to someone at B&H today, they said that they couldn't comment on how many orders they had, but i will say the word "thousands" was thrown out there. it may be a while
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Sean Pfeiffer

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:01 am

Chris Daniel wrote:I spoke to someone at B&H today, they said that they couldn't comment on how many orders they had, but i will say the word "thousands" was thrown out there. it may be a while


Well, we just don't know where things stand with the Pocket cam in regards to supply and demand. We also don't know exactly what the hold-up has been regarding why they weren't released on time.

I'm guessing that the primary obstacle has been getting the firmware working right, and I don't know just what is involved in updating the firmware on mass quantities of digital cameras. I don't know if they can just update them all at once in some fashion, or they literally have an army of guys individually plugging them in and updating the firmware. My guess is that it is something like the latter, which means that they may very well have thousands upon thousands of fully built cameras sitting in a factory somewhere awaiting a firmware update.

The question is how many cameras they have already built, how many have a finished firmware installation, and how many are on back order. Also, things are heavily dependent on the priority each reseller has. Even if B&H has "thousands" on back-order, if they are one of the higher priority sellers, then they will be one of the first resellers to get mass quantities delivered.

That's the only thing I really want to know. If it takes three months for me to get my camera I'm fine with that, I just want to know the general timeframe we're working with. It's the uncertainty that's driving me crazy.
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rick.lang

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 5:00 am

Whirled_Peas wrote:
Chris Daniel wrote:I spoke to someone at B&H today, they said that they couldn't comment on how many orders they had, but i will say the word "thousands" was thrown out there. it may be a while


... If it takes three months for me to get my camera I'm fine with that, I just want to know the general timeframe we're working with. It's the uncertainty that's driving me crazy.


Various personnel from BMD have commented that their approach is something like this (I paraphrase):
1) release a small number of units that are the first 'production' cameras but limited distribution that reflect the limited supplies of critical parts, especially the sensors,
2) continuously monitor feedback from early users to ensure quality and usage concerns are addressed
3) slowly ramp up production as parts supplies increase and production line can handle increased volumes,
4) implement changes periodically to improve flaws or shortcomings or add features,
5) continue to increase volumes of parts until target production rates are achieved.
6) monitor feedback from distribution chain and adjust distribution as needed.

So it's not an Apple like approach where there are 2 million iPhones ready for the first weekend of availability. There won't even be 2 thousand cameras ready. 2 hundred? Their approach will continue to be cautious, especially after the problems with the sensor/glass and the difficulty with Tokina lenses to achieve infinity focus on the BMCC, until they have increased confidence in the quality of the product and until their key suppliers can increase their production rates, especially the sensor.

The BMPCC isn't likely to have sensor issues but anything can happen. The BMPC4K sensor is very new and you can be sure BMD will be much more hands-on from the early going of development and testing than they were with the BMCC sensor. A lesson learned.

Sorry, I don't know if this means it will be months for most preorders to be filled. I suspect no one really expects the lengthy delays experienced last year. But given the price point of the BMPCC, this could have huge demand if the feedback from the early shipments is generally very positive. Good luck to you. Good luck to BMD.

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Richard Oakes

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 8:01 am

has everyone seen the ungraded Pro Rez files mr John Brawley has kindly put up on twitter?
https://twitter.com/brawlster
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 pm

rick.lang wrote:
Various personnel from BMD have commented that their approach is something like this (I paraphrase):
1) release a small number of units that are the first 'production' cameras but limited distribution that reflect the limited supplies of critical parts, especially the sensors,
2) continuously monitor feedback from early users to ensure quality and usage concerns are addressed
3) slowly ramp up production as parts supplies increase and production line can handle increased volumes,
4) implement changes periodically to improve flaws or shortcomings or add features,
5) continue to increase volumes of parts until target production rates are achieved.
6) monitor feedback from distribution chain and adjust distribution as needed.

So it's not an Apple like approach where there are 2 million iPhones ready for the first weekend of availability. There won't even be 2 thousand cameras ready. 2 hundred? Their approach will continue to be cautious, especially after the problems with the sensor/glass and the difficulty with Tokina lenses to achieve infinity focus on the BMCC, until they have increased confidence in the quality of the product and until their key suppliers can increase their production rates, especially the sensor.

The BMPCC isn't likely to have sensor issues but anything can happen. The BMPC4K sensor is very new and you can be sure BMD will be much more hands-on from the early going of development and testing than they were with the BMCC sensor. A lesson learned.

Sorry, I don't know if this means it will be months for most preorders to be filled. I suspect no one really expects the lengthy delays experienced last year. But given the price point of the BMPCC, this could have huge demand if the feedback from the early shipments is generally very positive. Good luck to you. Good luck to BMD.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


If this is accurate, I think it explains the price drop of the BMCC. There are many possible reasons (e.g. a pre-emptive move against competition) but there was no reason to cut the price if sales had been strong. The money would have been better spent air-freighting initial production units of the Pocket (IMHO and maybe they are doing that). But if BMD needs feedback from the first shipment, then the second shipment of the Pocket might not occur until September at the earliest. Who knows about the 4k? With the new BMCC pricing, those waiting for the 4k can get the BMCC and later use it as the B camera. Those waiting for the Pocket can get more camera sooner. So the price drop covers the delays in the other two cameras.

Of course, just my own speculation. I do think that BMCC needs to try to emulate Apple at least a little bit when they launch new cameras.
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David Franzo

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 8:59 pm

Darkfable wrote:has everyone seen the ungraded Pro Rez files mr John Brawley has kindly put up on twitter?
https://twitter.com/brawlster


Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?

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focuspulling

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 9:04 pm

frnz wrote:
Darkfable wrote:has everyone seen the ungraded Pro Rez files mr John Brawley has kindly put up on twitter?
https://twitter.com/brawlster


Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?

FYI, here are two test runs:

https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/71726506
https://vimeo.com/groups/blackmagic/videos/71722638
Last edited by focuspulling on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Charles Stewart Jr

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 9:32 pm

frnz wrote:Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?


From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.
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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 9:38 pm

Charles Stewart Jr wrote:
frnz wrote:Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?


From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.


I think it's 25 fps.

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focuspulling

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 9:41 pm

Charles Stewart Jr wrote:
frnz wrote:Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?


From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.

It's a combination of frame dimensions, frame rate, and codec as always. Here's the official table; none of the numbers so far nail it dead-on, but only by a hair:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/final ... 6section=4
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David Franzo

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 10:37 pm

focuspulling wrote:
Charles Stewart Jr wrote:
frnz wrote:Just downloaded the footage and threw it in Quicktime to see the specs. It's interesting that it shows the bitrate as 185.8mb/s. Shouldn't ProRes HQ be 220mb/s?


From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.

It's a combination of frame dimensions, frame rate, and codec as always. Here's the official table; none of the numbers so far nail it dead-on, but only by a hair:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/final ... 6section=4


Awesome! Most of my shooting will be 23.976 so now my card only needs to handle 22MB/s instead of 28 like I thought.

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 10:54 pm

Charles Stewart Jr wrote:From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.

185 mbit/s is just right for 25 fps, and as australia is PAL-land, that's to be expected. 220 mbit/s is the maximum bitrate for 30 fps though. And at 24 fps you come as low as 176 mbit/s, or 22 mbyte/s.
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focuspulling

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Re: Introducing Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

PostMon Aug 05, 2013 10:56 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:
Charles Stewart Jr wrote:From my experience 185mbps is normal for 23.98. I believe you get 220mbps at 59.94.

185 mbit/s is just right for 25 fps, and as australia is PAL-land, that's to be expected. 220 mbit/s is the maximum bitrate for 30 fps though. And at 24 fps you come as low as 176 mbit/s, or 22 mbyte/s.

Rather than relying upon speculation and memory, it's advisable to scroll up a few posts for hard data.
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