Blackmagic Forum

Tomski wrote:BM is in such a rush to win this camera war they started

John Brawley wrote:You don't HAVE to buy.

You don't HAVE to Pre Order.

If you choose to do so, do it based on the features that are officially announced and don't schedule a shoot with it till it's actually in your hands and you've tested the camera and workflow to see if it's right for you...

jb

Darryl Gregory wrote:Some valid points indeed, I still say chill out,
anger has and always will make anyone look the fool, Trust me I know first hand
But If you continue to try and bash & or humiliate BMD for errors in shipping & manufacturing updates?...
I can assure you will lose that battle three fold since they will come full circle soon enough.

Just try and relax and shoot with a Red Epic or Scarlet till you get an affordable 4K Camera

John Brawley wrote:You don't HAVE to buy.

You don't HAVE to Pre Order.

If you choose to do so, do it based on the features that are officially announced and don't schedule a shoot with it till it's actually in your hands and you've tested the camera and workflow to see if it's right for you...

jb

Darryl Gregory wrote:

spike wrote:

Darryl Gregory wrote:Some valid points indeed, I still say chill out,
anger has and always will make anyone look the fool, Trust me I know first hand
But If you continue to try and bash & or humiliate BMD for errors in shipping & manufacturing updates?...
I can assure you will lose that battle three fold since they will come full circle soon enough.

Just try and relax and shoot with a Red Epic or Scarlet till you get an affordable 4K Camera

Slightly of topic (sort of)... The thing is the BMPC 4K is not in the same market as Red Scarlet or Epic. Those cams have a wider dynamic range and are more filmlike. I truly believe the BMPC 4k is aimed more at TV production, commercials etc. Something I think BMD need to clarify more in their advertisements I think. The 2.5K 13 stops BMCC is STILL the way to go for indy filmakers. I have been waiting for something like the BMPC with "i" output for some time now for my TV studio. Turns out the BMCC also does "i" now too, so that could also be used:)

Also why should people shoot with RED? They want BMD for the price not the quality or i/o's the camera has. If it was quality they would go RED. I would have a RED scarlet with genlock over a BMCC or BMPC 4k any day of the week! Unfortunately our camera budget is limited so we are going with BMD camera's. When I say we are going with, I mean we are TRYING to go with BMD, but they are making it hard for us.

I will keep this simple, You are Misinformed and so wrong I want to slap you,
But hey I'm a none violent person, I'll hire someone to do it

Darryl Gregory wrote:Nobody said the extra gear was going to be cheap, shooting RAW has it's downside,
But we..as in me and many others who have edited or shot in RAW know this.

It is the DSLR fanatics who are complaining the most, because they can not afford this kind of upgrade... period.

As far as the Ultra HD that has most people confused...That is a huge plus to the production camera
not a hindrance, It is still a Cinema Camera
and better yet has a 4K sensor with a global shutter!!
What is it about the Production Camera you are not understanding????

Please Tell me!!!!
Yes I know we all want to see some sample footage, But trust me before that happens
Do some research I'm sure it will enlighten you about this sensor and it's future.


Good Night.

Darryl Gregory wrote:
Why because Jarred Land is a TOOL, and never had any intention of making an affordable camera, he made sunglasses for rich people with money to ski the best powder money could buy.

spike wrote:
You see this doesn't fly JB. Not at all. It may work on others, but not me. Selling the camera at this price point is paramount to "forcing people to buy". They have put money in other things, rigs, SSD's etc etc already on a promise of a release date that never came. They also put money in other equipement from their budget because they knew they could save money on a camera that never came.

So yes, they did force you to buy metaphorically speaking.

John Brawley wrote:

Darryl Gregory wrote:
Why because Jarred Land is a TOOL, and never had any intention of making an affordable camera, he made sunglasses for rich people with money to ski the best powder money could buy.

Let's not trade in personal attacks.

You should also do some more research. Jim Jannard is the founder of both Oakley sunglasses and RED digital camera. Jarred Land is a different person, who is associated with RED and DVXUSER, REDUSER and BMCUSER.

jb

spike wrote:lunchbox, a forum presents a perfect place to vent dissatisfaction of a product. It's ideal because BMD patrol here. The more they see customers being unhappy the more they will endeavour to fix the issue or you'd hope!

I agree buying accessories is not ideal when pre ordering, but some people had faith in this company keeping its word. And why shouldn't they? I didn't pre order any items at all as I know first hand how late BMD ALWAYS are with their products (look at my sig). Do you expect a forum to be full of happy campers all the time? Of course not, especially here.

YES, there are always delays, whether they be in the movie industry, games industry, hardware industry etc, but for a company to be over a year late with a product and then release a date for TWO new camera's of only 3 months away when they haven't met targets on LAST years camera is just plain stupid.

So YES I AGREE, if anyone now buy's accessories for the TWO new camera's on BMD's promise of a July release and expects them to be on time, then YES YES YES mournful you! BMD has proven time and time again that they are late to the market and still continue to give exaggerated dates. JB, lunchbox and others are right. Don't put faith in BMD design. That is what you are saying is it not? DON'T BUY ACCESSORIES for a BMD pre order item as it WILL be late and you'd be stupid to!

Edit - Just to add. I had a promise from someone high up at BMD UK that BMD had learnt their lesson and would not release specific dates for future items and only say "2nd quarter expected date". That never happened. Just another BMD exaggeration? I really wanted this to be true. Why you ask? Well I don't want to see others fall into the same trap as many here have... some people don't know what BMD is like and will jump in head first with their preorder money not expecting a delay... so YES venting here does help. Maybe not the precious BMD, but others buyers!

Taikonaut wrote:It is not as simple as it sound. Every country has its own consumer protection, I can only say from the UK perspective and over here if something is advertise and not delivered Trading Standards will be on your case resulting in the advert pulled by the ASA, the reseller not allowed to advertise it or worse still the company blacklisted.

spike wrote:

Taikonaut wrote:It is not as simple as it sound. Every country has its own consumer protection, I can only say from the UK perspective and over here if something is advertise and not delivered Trading Standards will be on your case resulting in the advert pulled by the ASA, the reseller not allowed to advertise it or worse still the company blacklisted.

Yes, exactly. I was thinking of contacting the ASA but as this is being advertised on an international website there would be nothing they could do. However, if BMD had released billboards, tv ads and magazines ads over here the ASA would be all over them.

I guess a lot of you folks live in countries where a company can lie to you, but I do not... thankfully;)

Taikonaut wrote:

spike wrote:

Taikonaut wrote:It is not as simple as it sound. Every country has its own consumer protection, I can only say from the UK perspective and over here if something is advertise and not delivered Trading Standards will be on your case resulting in the advert pulled by the ASA, the reseller not allowed to advertise it or worse still the company blacklisted.

Yes, exactly. I was thinking of contacting the ASA but as this is being advertised on an international website there would be nothing they could do. However, if BMD had released billboards, tv ads and magazines ads over here the ASA would be all over them.

I guess a lot of you folks live in countries where a company can lie to you, but I do not... thankfully;)

ASA and Trading Standards can stop UK based resellers. I hope you are not screwing things up for everyone else in the UK?

Manu Gil wrote:I have a feeling that on this occasion, will fulfill Blackmagic announced the delivery end of July. Because they can not afford to make the same mistake again.

Tengo la corazonada de que en esta ocasion, Blackmagic cumplira los plazos de entrega anunciados de finales de Julio. Porque no pueden permitirse el lujo de cometer el mismo error otra vez.

spike wrote:

Manu Gil wrote:I have a feeling that on this occasion, will fulfill Blackmagic announced the delivery end of July. Because they can not afford to make the same mistake again.

Tengo la corazonada de que en esta ocasion, Blackmagic cumplira los plazos de entrega anunciados de finales de Julio. Porque no pueden permitirse el lujo de cometer el mismo error otra vez.

Manu, as your first language isn't English I don't mind saying this again so you can understand.

BMD have done this BEFORE. Most of, if not all of their products have seen delays. In fact the BMD Hyperdeck studio pro and BMCC were delayed for coming up to nearly a year AT THE SAME TIME. Both were due July of last year and the pro has only really just started to ship.

spike wrote:
Slightly of topic (sort of)... The thing is the BMPC 4K is not in the same market as Red Scarlet or Epic. Those cams have a wider dynamic range and are more filmlike. I truly believe the BMPC 4k is aimed more at TV production, commercials etc. Something I think BMD need to clarify more in their advertisements I think.

masterok wrote:The more i visit this forum the less i want to deal with this company. If an issue comes up, these fan boys jump on OP and slam with "You dont know how to shoot", "Go back to your DSLR", "This is a professional camera", and when they run out of arguments all they have to say "Well this is just 3000$ camera, what do you expect?". Well what do i expect? Proper customer service, thats for one. Constant updates on deliveries and communication with clients, thats second. Third, if the product is release, priced, features promised, I expect the product to be available to order, have all features working as promised, camera in perfectly working condition, without sending it back for fixes

masterok wrote:Sean did you read the OP??

He is making a very strong point. People have put in preorders and were separated with their money for a whole year. Noone forced them? Yes. But with the promises from BMD they were expecting their camera when BMD announced the shipping, and as with all reputable companies, they ship their preorders to ALL customers at the same time, and when promised. If BMD would say expect delays for a year in shipping, there wouldnt be people ordering cameras, they would choose different options/rent or invest 3000$+ in other things and made actually money from those investments, unlike 3000$ free loan to BMD. Resellers have those money? It doesnt matter, those resellers placed orders with BMD so money gets to BMD in either way.

The MONEY doesn't get to BM until the camera ships. Period. If your retailer is holding your money hostage, then you should pick a better retailer to do business with. Try to remember, with all your "expectations", BM was expecting to get sensors without any QA problems. ****** situation for sure but it certainly isn't their fault. They can't just snap their fingers and presto, have 20,000 new sensors tomorrow. Stop beating that horse, it's been dead for months. As you noted..all these people CAN choose a different camera and take their money elsewhere. It will just cost them significantly more money or they'll have to make do with a lesser camera...and isn't THAT the real reason for all this bitching? There is NO other camera at this price point that can do what the BMCC can do, so everyone that's upset CAN'T take their money and go somewhere else...there is nowhere else to go.

The more i visit this forum the less i want to deal with this company. If an issue comes up, these fan boys jump on OP and slam with "You dont know how to shoot", "Go back to your DSLR", "This is a professional camera", and when they run out of arguments all they have to say "Well this is just 3000$ camera, what do you expect?". Well what do i expect? Proper customer service, thats for one. Constant updates on deliveries and communication with clients, thats second. Third, if the product is release, priced, features promised, I expect the product to be available to order, have all features working as promised, camera in perfectly working condition, without sending it back for fixes

So you don't expect these things from Canon, Nikon, Sony or RED? because all those companies fail at your list of expectations. Not a single one of them gives constant updates on developing products, QA or shipping issues. NONE. Show me one major company that does.

And a last thought, you got your camera, you shooting with it, you happy? You get upset with people complaining? Then dont read these topics.

I am in the Cinematography forum...to read about Cinematography topics....which this topic is NOT.

Camera is priced for regular Joes? Why are you here? Another regular Joe? Why did you buy it, go show your professionalism and buy Alexa or RED.

Dumbski wrote:First of all i want to say that i appreciate the fact BM is changing the camera market, and setting the benchmark. I like the fact that BM is showing they mean business and have a plan.
But just remember that the people here are interested in making content, and that whatever awesome specs you put on these new camera's, you can not keep repeating the 'look at this cool stuff' without delivering what you promise.
And by that i mean, showing off at shows, putting up wonderfull photo's and specs, while not being able to supply many people (especially in Europe) with a first version of your camera, a full year after the introduction. And i'm not even talking about after sales information, cos we all know that is lacking.

You put up specs for this 4 k camera, while you are not mentioning that raw is a feature that might come later. You leave it up to Mr. JB to sort of hint that this will be the case. 12 Stops ? Even JB stays vague on that, as it is all under construction. Yet you trust again that pre-orders will come. As it all sound to good to be true, i put a pre-order in again, even though after a year i do not have the pleasure of owning a wonderful BMCC. Marketing again outperforms reality.

BM is in such a rush to win this camera war they started and i can understand that. I again did fall for the new things you 'plan' to bring. I hope you do. Honestly. But if you fail short of any of these specs, or the delivery date you put out, i will cancel my order(s) immediately and will only come back to check you out once you sorted it all out. Specs , testfootage as awesome as your adds tell us it is going to be, and last but not least ON TIME delivery. Make it work. Im getting fed up with the marketting bull and the marketshare rush. Build it, prove it, and deliver. You want satisfied customers, EARN IT.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:

Dumbski wrote:First of all i want to say that i appreciate the fact BM is changing the camera market, and setting the benchmark. I like the fact that BM is showing they mean business and have a plan.
But just remember that the people here are interested in making content, and that whatever awesome specs you put on these new camera's, you can not keep repeating the 'look at this cool stuff' without delivering what you promise.
And by that i mean, showing off at shows, putting up wonderfull photo's and specs, while not being able to supply many people (especially in Europe) with a first version of your camera, a full year after the introduction. And i'm not even talking about after sales information, cos we all know that is lacking.

You put up specs for this 4 k camera, while you are not mentioning that raw is a feature that might come later. You leave it up to Mr. JB to sort of hint that this will be the case. 12 Stops ? Even JB stays vague on that, as it is all under construction. Yet you trust again that pre-orders will come. As it all sound to good to be true, i put a pre-order in again, even though after a year i do not have the pleasure of owning a wonderful BMCC. Marketing again outperforms reality.

BM is in such a rush to win this camera war they started and i can understand that. I again did fall for the new things you 'plan' to bring. I hope you do. Honestly. But if you fail short of any of these specs, or the delivery date you put out, i will cancel my order(s) immediately and will only come back to check you out once you sorted it all out. Specs , testfootage as awesome as your adds tell us it is going to be, and last but not least ON TIME delivery. Make it work. Im getting fed up with the marketting bull and the marketshare rush. Build it, prove it, and deliver. You want satisfied customers, EARN IT.

And what's your responsibility in all this? You post a criticism of BMD, preaching about ethics, anonymously and expect to be taken seriously?

BMD has apologized multiple times for their mistakes concerning the BMCC, as well as for the mistakes of their suppliers over which they don't have complete control.

For many weeks now BMD has been delivering BMCCs to satisfied customers all over the world. Sure, not everyone who pre-ordered a BMCC has received theirs yet, but the cameras appear to be shipping in greater & greater quantities every week.

Anyone who pre-orders a product and pays a dealer a deposit, especially a non-refundable deposit, has decided themselves to take a financial risk. That business transaction is between you & your dealer. If you're unhappy with the result, talk with your dealer & insist on a refund.

But if you're going to post to a public forum, show some courage and at least use your real name. In my book it earns you instant respect, even if I don't agree with you. But anonymous posts aren't worth the electrons they're printed on.

Sure, we all want BMD to do a great job going forward. But anyone who places a pre-order (with a deposit, especially a non-refundable deposit) for a product that isn't shipping yet -- or for which there no sample footage available yet -- is taking a risk that the product might be delayed or might not perform as hoped. That's your decision, and your risk.

Personally, I've placed a no-deposit, no-obligation pre-order for a BMPC-4K, and I have no worries about it. I'm reasonably certain sample BMPC-4K footage will be published before my camera is delivered. If I don't like how it looks, I'll probably buy a BMCC-MFT instead. I expect the BMCC-MFT to be available off-the-shelf before the BMPC-4K ships. No guarantees, but I have nothing to lose.

In the meantime, I shoot with my GH2 & my colleague's FS100 & other cams every week. When my BMD camera arrives, it arrives, or not.

I'm a mostly-satisfied BMD customer, and the only one of their products i own is an original model Hyperdeck Shuttle -- not a perfect product, but it perfectly performs the primary task that I bought it for, so I'm quite happy with it, and with BMD.

The original BMCC can produce amazing high-quality results in the right hands. Especially in the hands of people who typically don't waste a lot of time whining and complaining about what a camera can't do. Such folks quickly figure out what a camera can do, and then get to work.

I plan to do the same with my BMD camera when I receive it. Hopefully you will, too. Cheers.

-

Taikonaut wrote:I understand your enthusiasm with BMD ... Are you trying to get into their good books so you can be on their beta list

Fulgencio wrote:i can not believe there are so many cheerleaders
why can someone not working for a company fight your them??
is it so hard for you to understand they promised something (giving a camera in december in my case) and they did not do it.. not even really explained why
maybe someone wants to be prized as fanboy of the month
if you are so happy with your camera... what are you doing here?? go out and shoot.. the world is waiting for your marvels

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:

Fulgencio wrote:i can not believe there are so many cheerleaders
why can someone not working for a company fight your them??
is it so hard for you to understand they promised something (giving a camera in december in my case) and they did not do it.. not even really explained why
maybe someone wants to be prized as fanboy of the month
if you are so happy with your camera... what are you doing here?? go out and shoot.. the world is waiting for your marvels

I don't work for BMD. I like their products. I don't own a BMD camera. I was loaned one by a dealer for a few days, because the dealer hoped I'd place a pre-order with them, which I have since done.

I shoot with other cams every week. I waited since April 2012 for a BMCC, but now I'm looking forward to receiving a BMPC-4K instead.

BMD has apologized multiple times for BMCC shipping delays. I accept their apology. What's past is past. However, if BMD makes future mistakes, I'll make note of them & proceed accordingly. Meanwhile I'm optimistic, which is hard for me to do because I'm originally from New Jersey.

I prefer to put my energy into answering questions online about BMD cameras, and shooting with a variety of cameras as opportunities arise, and attempt to be positive instead of whining.

What have you contributed to the community lately?

spike wrote:So as you've only waited for one BMD product and only had a personal stake in one delay, you refuse to acknowledge the dozen of other times BMD have late to market? Wow yeah you're doing GREAT work for this community. ..

PaulDelVecchio wrote:Normally I'd say something here, but it seems people have already made up their minds. Reasoning is out the window now. All I can say is this... the way I take the release dates are as estimates. If it doesn't ship upon release date, fine. I fully expect the 4K cam to ship within 2 months of the release date (Sept/Oct latest) and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I understand people want this cam, but you can go elsewhere. You don't have to buy from BMD if you don't want to. No one is forcing your hand. If you feel that BMD are liars and not to be trusted, then don't trust them and buy another product. I know we're all super enthusiastic because these cameras are giving us high end features for a fraction of what the market would normally charge, but you can definitely go elsewhere.

Nothing is giving you the quality for the price that these cameras give you, so it makes sense people want them badly. I know I did and it was tough waiting, but in the end I like to think I'm a reasonable person and can understand what happened. BMD feels confident that they'll deliver the new cameras on time. They could be wrong. Something unforeseen can happen. They could also be right. Point is, judging from the past, take the delivery date as an estimate. Don't book or schedule any work (important or not) around the release dates. Be responsible on your end.

If you feel BMD did you wrong, you don't have to buy from them. Personally, it was rough and I was disappointed with all the waiting, but it was something unforeseen. If you feel that BMD's practice of manufacturing the camera just before the release date is not a good practice, go elsewhere. Sony, Canon, and Red will gladly take your money.

The reason why people are complaining is because deep down, they know there is no other camera out there that will give them this quality for this price. Everything is either too expensive, or the quality isn't as good, so there literally is no competition unless you want to spend a lot more. And that makes everyone feel trapped. It's a tough situation, no doubt.