Blackmagic Forum

Deyan Parouchev wrote:If it's possible I prefer to keep the DNG option but to have the new color science v4 rather than the v3 in the genuine 4,6K. It will be easier to match with the actual BM lineup. Is it possible for BM to upgrade the color science as they already did in the past for this camera ?

Since I am using the UM4.6K as a B-Camera with the G2 in ProRes shooting mode it would be absolutely fantastic if they could get CS4 on to it to make color matching that much easier. Especially if I have to just hand off the footage to a client for them to do the post work.

With CinemaDNG you can choose CS4 in the RAW tab of Resolve. However, it would be nicer to be able to have it natively next in CS4.


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Is it possible to propose this update to BM ? Captain Cook ? The color science v4 should be easy and painless to integrate and will be very helpfull obviously...

Yes, I think it would be possible. I would even donate some money to Blackmagic so they can implement this...

Deyan Parouchev wrote:Is it possible to propose this update to BM ? Captain Cook ? The color science v4 should be easy and painless to integrate and will be very helpfull obviously...

Rakesh Malik wrote:
You might have set a record for inanity here...

Blatant, ad-hominem attack. You can disagree, but why disagree this way?

What's new in Blackmagic RAW 1.6.1

Added Blackmagic URSA Broadcast support.

I think it's a dead end

Be nice if they would just admit it.

Stephen Press wrote:Be nice if they would just admit it.

You still got nab

Ricardo Marty

Hi, i have original UM 4.6k and pro G1. I would like to shoot both in prores in multicam. As we cant have color science v4 on old 4.6K the question is if there is any way to have old color science v3 on PRO G1? Was sc v4 on PRO G1 introduced via some firmware update or was there from the beginning? Is it any way to downgrade pro G1 from sc v4 to sc v3? Thanks!

Krzysztof Gluszek wrote:Hi, i have original UM 4.6k and pro G1. I would like to shoot both in prores in multicam. As we cant have color science v4 on old 4.6K the question is if there is any way to have old color science v3 on PRO G1? Was sc v4 on PRO G1 introduced via some firmware update or was there from the beginning? Is it any way to downgrade pro G1 from sc v4 to sc v3? Thanks!

CS4 was added in a firmware update. Honestly the original 4.6K could easily have that same CS4 update. However, it’s looking like it won’t happen. It’s a bummer. I just grade the original 4.6K to match the UMPG2 when I do multi-camera shoots with them.


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So maybe some solution would be just downgrade PRO G1 to firmware pre-CS change...


I started the project which contains a lot of green screen multicam work. I realised that cs V3 is better for this than v4, i mean green color is just more green while skintones looks nice in both versions. I am not very good colorist and i had some difficulties in grading both color sciences to match perfectly...

EDIT: firmware 6.0 introduced cs v4 to pro g1. So downgrading to 5.something should bring v3 back...
unfortunatelly it will loose braw.... But theoretically it should make prores to look the same in 4.6k non pro and pro g1...

And you can always revert to the latest firmware when your project is complete.

Yeah, i have just downgraded my pro g1 to firmware 5.1.1, both cameras are matched perfectly in prores now. I am still using CDNG 4:1 instead of braw so in raw i can have color science v4 in resolve. This combination seems to be the best solution for someone who owns both old 4.6k and pro g1.

Krzysztof Gluszek wrote:Yeah, i have just downgraded my pro g1 to firmware 5.1.1, both cameras are matched perfectly in prores now. I am still using CDNG 4:1 instead of braw so in raw i can have color science v4 in resolve. This combination seems to be the best solution for someone who owns both old 4.6k and pro g1.

Cool! Yeah, I have old 4.6K and Pro G2. So no luck with easy matching without grading to match. Would be great if BMD just did a color science update for the original 4.6K. Either way, here’s looking to the future.


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With the Video Assist 12G update today and BRAW for the Canon and Panasonic Cameras through the VA12G...

I'm calling it. RIP the hope for BRAW on the UM4.6K. Now going to go shoot something with both cameras and UHD ProRes 422 HQ on the UM4.6K while using BRAW on the G2. Tomorrow same deal.

True, as of now however the VA doesn’t record braw from any BM camera including the G2.

It’s also true that the respective raw formats from Panasonic and Canon are being stored as braw in the VA.

Doesn’t this mean that any streamable raw format is game for braw recording so long as the bandwidth is supported?

Good Luck

Yeah... so as an owner of original 4.6K and Pro G1 who shot multicam recently I have downgraded g1 to pre braw firmware, now color science is matched perfectly, both cameras records the same prores and the same CDNG which i really like a lot. Both cameras records to double cfast- SSD adapters to very cheap now fast and reliable samsung evo SSDs... this setup will work for me i think for the next two years at least... good bye braw workflow for now.

With the release of Blackmagic RAW 1.7 Is there hope to see BRAW implemented in Ursa mini 4.6k?
Please Blackmagic Design don't leave us in the dark. I will use 4.6k Ursa mini and I can't match it to my Pocket 6K BRAW... I have to shoot Progress only for both because Cinema DNG is too big for my workflow. But I would like to keep Cinema DNG as an option for bigger projects, for sure.

Well I shot the interviews in BRAW and CDNG today just to make color matching easier. Tomorrow I have no choice, I need to shoot UHD ProRes to conserve space.



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Hello guys, I need suggestions before taking a decision. Actually I own a URSA Mini 4.6k the no pro version. As we all know there is very less or no hope that it will get the braw update in future. I am very confused that weather should I sell Ursa and buy pocket 6k or keep the Ursa. Is pocket 6k is good for feature film shoots as comparison to pocket 6k. Is pocket 6k is better camera than non pro version of 4.6k. I know the dynamic range could be the issue or the cinema DNG. Suggest me what should I do. I have a body exchange offer with pocket 6k as well.

When BM discontinued The Ursa mini 4.6k back last year, That was the death nail for any form of future firmware support for this product, So forget this BRaw update,
It ain't gonna happen!
BM's approach has worked, No positive news for what nearly two years? And allow the mutterings to slowly fade away as it has today.
It's Old news and you know they say about old news, Nobody in a position of power needs to care.

I don't think they have handled it well at all. 568 posts on this one thread alone.
What continues to annoy me is the lack of a solid "no" from BM.
If they can't or its not economic, fine. Its a bit of a pain but, fine.
Just say No.
And then we can move on.

It’s a shame that wonderful camera with 15 stops can’t shoot BRAW or at least output it through SDI for the BMVA12G7 to record. What a great companion to my 13 stop BMPCC4K. We are still patiently waiting but I understand it may not happen. Both cameras can still work together.

Hello guys, I need suggestions before taking a decision. Actually I own a URSA Mini 4.6k the no pro version. As we all know there is very less or no hope that it will get the braw update in future. I am very confused that weather should I sell Ursa and buy pocket 6k or keep the Ursa. Is pocket 6k is good for feature film shoots as comparison to pocket 6k. Is pocket 6k is better camera than non pro version of 4.6k. I know the dynamic range could be the issue or the cinema DNG. Suggest me what should I do. I have a body exchange offer with pocket 6k as well.

What is your workflow, who are your clients? The film business is a business. Will the pocket 6K make you more money and get you more clients?
If the UM4.6K gives you a good ROI then there is no point in changing.

I love my UMP G2! It was a great upgrade from the Original URSA Mini 4.6K. Part of the reason I’ve held on to the original URSA Mini is because the image is super close to matching the G2. It’s mainly a color science that’s different and the RAW codec.

I’d say the Pocket 6K is a good B-Cam or C-Cam, but not a substitute for a camera like the URSA Mini. There’s a lot of people getting work with only a Pocket, and that’s fine. I’d mainly get a Pocket 6K as an additional camera for my UMPG2 since it does BRAW.

At this time I’m waiting on money for video work I’ve done that will get rid of the credit card debt for my new tripod and the car maintenance I just did. The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.

But the 6K is still always a good option. I’d say it’s a very good investment for the price.


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timbutt2 wrote: The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.

For lights, you might want to consider the CRLS or Dedo Lightstream option: one light and a bunch of reflectors. I recently bought a Dedolight Lightstream system and am really looking forward to using it. Only one light is needed, with a parallel beam attachment; you bounce it around using their reflectors (which have a range of reflectance angles) to create keylight, fill, and rim light. Plus the reflectors are useful outdoors for reflecting sunlight. Apart from the C-stands and articulating arms I can fit my entire lighting kit into a Pelikan 1510.

Brad Hurley wrote:

timbutt2 wrote: The debate is whether to buy lights or a 6K. I’m leaning towards the lights first since those are more pivotal.

For lights, you might want to consider the CRLS or Dedo Lightstream option: one light and a bunch of reflectors. I recently bought a Dedolight Lightstream system and am really looking forward to using it. Only one light is needed, with a parallel beam attachment; you bounce it around using their reflectors (which have a range of reflectance angles) to create keylight, fill, and rim light. Plus the reflectors are useful outdoors for reflecting sunlight. Apart from the C-stands and articulating arms I can fit my entire lighting kit into a Pelikan 1510.

Actually, I've already decided on what lights I'd be getting. Gonna get some Aputure 120D Mark II lights and then will get some 300D Mark II. Eventually when the 600D comes out I'll also get that.

I haven’t wanted to part with the URSA Mini 4.6K as it has its place due to the improved dynamic range and very good image quality. For quick and simpler tasks the BMPCC4K and BMPCC6K also has its advantages especially the dual ISO ranges and lightness. I like being able to shoot on the new SSD drives too. And the Q5 codec can be lighter on the raw resource demands. Tough call and recommend both, but you will decide of course.

Blackmagic: We don't have the spare time to bring BRAW to the original URSA Mini

Coronavirus: Hold my beer.

Greetings, didn't want to create a new thread as my question is somewhat related.

So, I have the Pocket 4k, and I'm really struggling on deciding whether or not to upgrade to the Ursa mini 4.6k (non pro), and was wondering what some here thought.

Obviously the biggest determining factor is what kind of shooting I do. Well, primary it's narrative and interviews. In all these situations there is usually plenty of light, as I control it.

The biggest benefit for having the Pocket 4k over the Ursa is its low light capability and its ability to run and gun, but since I don't do any of that type of shooting I wondering if it would be worth the upgrade.

The Ursa doesn't have BRAW, but that doesn't really bother me.

So, Although I don't need the Pocket 4k for my style of shooting, it seems that the upgrade may be marginal. Image quality wise, I've heard the Ursa has a 2 stop advantage, but I also heard it only has a one stop advantage --

TLDR: if you were a narrative shooter, would you upgrade from the Pocket to the 4.6k ursa, is the image quality alone worth the upgrade in cost?

If you can, you shoot with both, and that sounds desirable for exactly what you do.

If you are a sole owner operator, and most importantly you supply the lights, the 4.6K sensor with CinemaDNG is good. From what you said though I’m not sure how valuable the extra stop or two if dynamic range will be. It’s better in a lot of situations.

Now considering the BMPCC4K (and BMPCC6K), the camera is easy to love to work with it. Just watch out for thin highlights if you get too close to clipping. There are many tools to ensure you get a good exposure. A lighter camera and use of a lighter codec like BRAW Q5 make a big difference on documentary work. I still shoot mostly Q0.

Consider adding the BMVA12G7 which will make focus and framing easier (although most times you’re fine using the camera monitors). If you’re going outdoors, this monitor will make your day. And you get an insurance backup ProRes recording in the event some mishap occurs with your camera’s recording.

rick.lang wrote:If you can, you shoot with both, and that sounds desirable for exactly what you do.

If you are a sole owner operator, and most importantly you supply the lights, the 4.6K sensor with CinemaDNG is good. From what you said though I’m not sure how valuable the extra stop or two if dynamic range will be. It’s better in a lot of situations.

Now considering the BMPCC4K (and BMPCC6K), the camera is easy to love to work with it. Just watch out for thin highlights if you get too close to clipping. There are many tools to ensure you get a good exposure. A lighter camera and use of a lighter codec like BRAW Q5 make a big difference on documentary work. I still shoot mostly Q0.

Consider adding the BMVA12G7 which will make focus and framing easier (although most times you’re fine using the camera monitors). If you’re going outdoors, this monitor will make your day. And you get an insurance backup ProRes recording in the event some mishap occurs with your camera’s recording.

Thank you, I was hoping you'd respond as you are one of the few who has both.

Another question if you don't mind -- having both, do you think there's a certain, hard to put your figure on quality that Ursa has that the Pocket lacks? I want to say that quality is "detail" but that's not the right word, more like a depth and or a cinematic quality the 4.6k has that I don't often see in the pocket. Have you noticed any of that? I supposed it could be attributed to the extra stops of dynamic range but it seems like more than that.

Thanks.

The URSA Mini 4.6K sensor of course is a different sensor that may behave slightly differently. When you’re processing that raw footage you have the choice in post to use Colour Science 3 or the same Colour Science 4 that the BMPCC4K BRAW uses. So they can be made to match closely.

Tint will be different as can be expected. I don’t rely on a perfect white balance but that helps of course giving you a roughly common starting place but I use a combination of scopes and my eye to judge what I want.

Both will give you good results. It was the same as I understand it when the BMCC and original BMPCC footage was used together. both of these situations are easier to blend together than the BMPC4K which seems more a unique look that’s good on its own, although we’ve had folks here that have mixed it with footage from other sensors successfully.

I think the best practice (if you do have a project that requires footage from two different sensors) is following the same exposure practice on both cameras. Shoot the respective native ISO of each camera and keep the False Colour away from Blue and Yellow as best you can where it matters. This can be tricky when shooting both in the same scene if for example you have a blown window from the BMPCC4K and the URSA Mini 4.6K shows good detail. I’d keep the angles sufficiently different so the viewer isn’t confronted by those kind of differences.

But I know you’re concerned about Colour overall and matching that’s achievable but can be challenging with two sensors doing the same scene shot and similar angles. Test test test so see how they behave.

I’m always impressed by the work I see in a distributed film, but occasionally I notice Colour errors there too! So don’t be too concerned, just satisfy the demands of the producer.

Hey guys, do we still have chance?
I recently bought BMPCC 4K as a B cam for my Ursa mini 4.6K and this is really pain to perfectly match those two color sciences 3 and 4 together, because a lot of my work is under time pressure and I use custom made LUTs to color grade.
Do anyone have some tutorial, parameters, to help match these two different color science together in fastest way?
Anyway- still hope to see color science 4 integrated into Ursa mini 4.6K, because I can't afford to upgrade any time soon and I feel left aside at this point as Blackmagic Design customer.

Rolands Briedis wrote:Hey guys, do we still have chance?
I recently bought BMPCC 4K as a B cam for my Ursa mini 4.6K and this is really pain to perfectly match those two color sciences 3 and 4 together, because a lot of my work is under time pressure and I use custom made LUTs to color grade.
Do anyone have some tutorial, parameters, to help match these two different color science together in fastest way?
Anyway- still hope to see color science 4 integrated into Ursa mini 4.6K, because I can't afford to upgrade any time soon and I feel left aside at this point as Blackmagic Design customer.

Rolands, at this time your best hope is to shoot CInemaDNG RAW on the UM4.6K and in the RAW tab of Resolve change color science to Color Science 4 from As Shot. Otherwise, not much hope in ProRes for it to be native.

Almost wonder if because of the pandemic if they should revisit bringing BRAW to the UM4.6K since a lot of people are hurting financially. I only got lucky to pay off my credit card debt from money owed from gigs before the pandemic hit. And, luckily I'm still owed a small bit more from at least three clients that probably won't pay for a bit longer because they're hurting for money as well.

Nonetheless, the price drop on the Pocket 6K is worth considering to have a second BRAW camera. But I would still love to see BRAW come to the UM4.6K since I still have it and so do many others.

Today Blackmagic Design Releases Camera 6.9.3 Update which adds new functionalities to the already discontinued URSA Mini Pro 4.6K.
So it is one step closer to direction of 4.6k update .

Rolands Briedis wrote:Today Blackmagic Design Releases Camera 6.9.3 Update which adds new functionalities to the already discontinued URSA Mini Pro 4.6K.
So it is one step closer to direction of 4.6k update .

The only thing that would save my already doomed 7" VA 12G HDR is a firmware update to get it to record BRAW with the original UM 4.6k.

Rolands Briedis wrote:Today Blackmagic Design Releases Camera 6.9.3 Update which adds new functionalities to the already discontinued URSA Mini Pro 4.6K.
So it is one step closer to direction of 4.6k update .

As much as I wish this update gave me hope for the original URSA Mini 4.6K... it doesn't. If there hasn't been BRAW for it by now, there probably never will be. At least I have the G2.

WahWay wrote:The only thing that would save my already doomed 7" VA 12G HDR is a firmware update to get it to record BRAW with the original UM 4.6k.

That would be a nice compromise if there’s a technical reason they can’t bring BRAW to URSA Mini 4.6K. The BMVA12G7 only records HD but that’s all I really deliver anyway. BRAW in the camera is the preferred solution (at the cost of losing CinemaDNG though), but still this point it’s a plus if the BMVA12G7 saves the day.

I'm still using the 4.6K Mini and I'm very happy with it. All the new features in the Pro and and the G2 are sweet, but don't justify an upgrade for my specific requirements. I might change my mind if I ever get the chance to actually try BRAW on my UM4.6K, but I can see why they wouldn't provide it. It's either not possible or like any camera manufacturer they want us to buy their new cameras. As a business however, wouldn't it make more sense to think in the long run and take care of customer satisfaction? Not saying we are entitled to an update (even though it would be a good move), but a bit of information would give people some peace. Something like "we are still looking into the issue, trying to get BRAW to work with smaller processing power".

We were pretty much left with: "It's coming to our other cameras."

rick.lang wrote:

WahWay wrote:The only thing that would save my already doomed 7" VA 12G HDR is a firmware update to get it to record BRAW with the original UM 4.6k.

That would be a nice compromise if there’s a technical reason they can’t bring BRAW to URSA Mini 4.6K. The BMVA12G7 only records HD but that’s all I really deliver anyway. BRAW in the camera is the preferred solution (at the cost of losing CinemaDNG though), but still this point it’s a plus if the BMVA12G7 saves the day.

Rick, while you can only record on the VA in HD, with the Pocket 4K, which only outputs HD, the VA can record to any SDI or HDMI camera in all HD, Ultra HD, 2K and 4K DCI formats, using ProRes, that can output these resolutions. The way you phrased this, makes it sound like the new 12G VA can only record HD.
Cheers

You’re right I was only thinking in terms of HD recording on the BMVA12G7.

With the new zcam and others it's up to BMD to reduce migration by Upgrading all their cameras as much as they can and developing newer ones. I'm sure that the cv thing has worked in favor of development for reasons of time and for market intelligence.

So I feel that when BMD revels its products it will be more than expected.

Ricardo Marty

One more update and we are closer and closer. I can feel it.

I don't remember if I posted here, have looked at it on occasion. But Roland's, yes an update. It occurs to me that Braw could do significantly more towards the Arrri, Or mini 4.6k or Braw, as pre baked looks with deeper durability in the image. A real prp feature, is to expand Braw the emulate other cameras, or looks being used in filming. There is a section of work which has standard looks and handover. Imagine mixing mini footage with other eng cameras. If there is less differences. There is less post work quicker handoff to broadcast and live intermix feeds. Then it is a matter of providing the functionality, ease of handling and low cost reliability and durability, then what reason is there not to buy Braw instead of other ENG cameras. If BM is doing all this mapping, they can map all these cameras, and assign an numerical number for each look (to avoid TM). Imagine a Eng camera with advanced Arri look in Sony sensor. As well as enhanced Sony r g look on 4.6k. And a paid online looks market for download into Braw and resolve, direct to camera wirelessly as well as via phone or desktop,ballieung you try a recommendation onnthe spot. . You talk about Arrii or Sony reliability, but what is going be BM:s advanced ability to see?

So, as I posted in one of Dimitry's threads, and as one of the engineers now says, you can get a few extra stops out of the pocket by using highlights (but expose to maximize the trick) and advance temporal noise removing out of the lower stops, and remap for look. You then get some usability bringing it towards the 4.6k, Alexa and old Red, the 4.6k less stop due to less room in the noise profile. So, yes, bring it in, still a lot left to archieve, apart from the areas I've suggested in the past. I was waiting to get a certain cameras to demonstrate this, but seems I've got a, cough, micro of a 6k-8k chance here of seeing that soon. I've had these mechanisms running through my head for a long time, but often forget these things due to the medical issue. The fact is that you colour filter can act like a ND filter does on certain Sony chips, for better highlights and pushing more stops into the central region of the images levels, for nicer toning. It's not an actual sensor Nd filter pattern, so it is not always going to work, and you can bake in some mistakes. But, wow, the possibility to time like we see it! Cone on BM, you are so close. Several changes to Braw will bring it so much closer to Alexa fir a fraction of the inconvenience. So good tracking temporal noise removal as an option on the camera is something. It means that footage on 4.6k will be more usable a stop or two darker, and more if you ussually only want to useca very clean image, but don't do a deep clean on post. I'm taking about tracking quality noise removal, as I had been secretly been talking about for decades, while others acted like they thought they knew everything. I've been thinking of advanced imaging deconstruction techniques since the early to mid 1980's you are still waiting to see from the market. Lost of money wasted in the wrong areas. It's easy to be confident when you put the actual work in to figuring the details out of how to do everything for a long time.

Now. Imagine what future Braw updates might archieve on your mini 4.6k!

As uncompressed CDNG contains all the information from the sensor, it should be possible to write a computer program that takes CDNG files and batch converts them to BRAW of desired flavor. If it is technically impossible to update UM46K to record BRAW, a program like that would solve most of the issues with not having BRAW on the UM46K.
A program like that could also be written to take CDNG files from even older cameras, and convert them to BRAW, effectively giving all older BM cameras BRAW capacity.

/Mattias

Blackmagic RAW is tuned per sensor, you would need at least a sensor profile for each camera to create such a program. BMD have already profiled the Ursa Mini 4.6K sensor since it is used in the UM Pro G1.

Mattias Kristiansson wrote:As uncompressed CDNG contains all the information from the sensor, it should be possible to write a computer program that takes CDNG files and batch converts them to BRAW of desired flavor. If it is technically impossible to update UM46K to record BRAW, a program like that would solve most of the issues with not having BRAW on the UM46K.
A program like that could also be written to take CDNG files from even older cameras, and convert them to BRAW, effectively giving all older BM cameras BRAW capacity.

/Mattias

A 100% excellent idea Mattias as long as you have a lossless cdng and they aren't doing anything fancy with the sensor that is being passed on.

Well I must say I was slightly surprised, But pleased regarding the new software update for the original G1.
Good product support from BM and good news for the owners of the original G1.
Now I was one of those last year who were extremely pessimistic about the Ursa Mini 4.6k ever receiving a Braw update, Especially considering BMs virtual late of clarity in regards to that update ever happening,
But now....... Well, I may start to believe again?
"The chard burnt embers of hope have miraculously began to glow a faint soft colour of orangey red" . lol.

Doris.

I dunno. Maybe a glimmer of hope remains. However, I'm not going to hold my breath.