Blackmagic Forum

As an owner of a UMP, 2 x Pockets (4K Pocket ordered) and 1 x Ursa EF v2 4K I would classify myself as having firmly bought into the BM ecosystem! I sent BM support an email re the rollout of BRAW to other BM cameras and have just received this reply......

Hi Iain,

Thank you for contacting Blackmagic Support.

The new Blackmagic RAW codec is currently only available on the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K as a public beta while we continue to work toward it’s full release.

As the new advanced de-mosaic algorithm is a central component of Blackmagic RAW, the cameras hardware has to have the native ability to perform the intensive processing that is required of the codec.

Blackmagic RAW is due to be rolled out on to the new Pocket Cinema Camera 4K next, however we are unable to comment as to when or if it will be rolled out onto other cameras at this time.

I hope this information helps.

Kind regards,

Duwayne Knight
Technical Support Consultant
Blackmagic Design EMEA

I frequently still shoot on my original Ursa either for the increased frame rate capabilities or on most shoots as a B cam to my UMP. Looking at the reply above what's people's thoughts on the original Ursa having the processing power to deal with BRAW? My feelings are that it should be more than capable? I'd like to think that in BM's desire to get this codec more universal use it makes sense to roll it out to as many of their cameras as possible? Amongst those more technical than me do you think this is possible? What about the original pocket too?

Sorry, but my guess is the earlier cameras won’t have the horsepower and the internal memory that are the key ingredients. Will be a hard pill to swallow, but we shall see in the next year what has been achieved. If it doesn’t appear by IBC 2019, it’s not gonna happen.

One possible solution for owners of the original Pocket would be if BMD comes out with a new line of Video Assist monitor/recorders that can record BRAW. We'll see!

rick.lang wrote:Sorry, but my guess is the earlier cameras won’t have the horsepower and the internal memory that are the key ingredients. Will be a hard pill to swallow, but we shall see in the next year what has been achieved. If it doesn’t appear by IBC 2019, it’s not gonna happen.

Rick that's interesting about 'memory'. Hadn't thought of that. But actual horsepower? Surely the frame rates possible on the Ursa suggests horsepower far greater than a UMP and if you add that BRAW is a much lighter code than DNG surely it could cope???? Maybe a clearer statement from Grant would be helpful? Surely they would know one way or the other? Brads comment of new external recorders is pretty interesting.

Iain Philpott wrote:Rick that's interesting about 'memory'. Hadn't thought of that. But actual horsepower? Surely the frame rates possible on the Ursa suggests horsepower far greater than a UMP and if you add that BRAW is a much lighter code than DNG surely it could cope???? Maybe a clearer statement from Grant would be helpful? Surely they would know one way or the other? Brads comment of new external recorders is pretty interesting.

As I understand it, BRAW essentially makes the camera take on some of the processing tasks that would normally be handled in Resolve. So the camera's processor needs to be up to that task. For the original Pocket, the question of whether the processor is up to it is kind of moot: as a business decision, there's no point adding this functionality to a product that is no longer being sold.

Yes, highly unlikely any of the original (legacy) discontinued cameras even have the processing power, and since they are no longer being sold, will get any additional FW support.

The Big Ursa, possibly, but again a “?”. The Ursa 4.6 would be the most likely candidate for the BRaw upgrade, if its processor is the same or similar to the UMPro.
Cheers

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, highly unlikely any of the original (legacy) discontinued cameras even have the processing power, and since they are no longer being sold, will get any additional FW support.

The Big Ursa, possibly, but again a “?”. The Ursa 4.6 would be the most likely candidate for the BRaw upgrade, if its processor is the same or similar to the UMPro.
Cheers

I guess there lies my problem. The speed at which BM introduces then drops cameras makes them obsolete to any FW upgrades pretty quickly. While RED initially is expensive the FW updates still apply to Epic/Dragon. If BM wants to build a loyal base then this is something that needs to change. I was suckered into the upgradability of the original Ursa but 'came back' for more. I can understand the possible problems with the original pocket but If I owned a UM right now and that was to receive no update to make BRAW work I'd be pretty pissed.

I'll say it AGAIN.

Blackmagic still sells the 4.6k to this day. Say you go on B&H right now, and you feel the Ursa Mini Pro and the internal ND's, and smaller screen isn't what you want. So you buy the 4.6k thinking it's a better fit. The very next day BMD states, oh hey, new feature ONLY in the UMP. How would you have known what exactly to do, BRAW isn't even listed as an exclusive feature to the UMP on say B&H even now post release.

Blackmagic is clearly getting an overwhelming amount of customer support questions.

My thought is, if they cannot upgrade the UM 4.6k with firmware AT LEAST give a loyalty pricing upgrade to the UMP for original 4.6K owners. I mean, they're staying super quiet, and FWIW those of us with the 4.6k should sell our cameras sooner than later if we're looking to get the UMP as the depreciation increases by the day.

That said I'm happy with my 4.6k original, (EXCEPT THE FPN DAMMIT!!) So that said if BMD just fixed this I'd be happy staying with ProRes and CDNG.

At around 27:16 in this video, Grant says "we'll be working hard to add Blackmagic Raw to our new Pocket Cinema Camera 4K as well as some of our other cameras as well as future updates." [I think he meant "in future updates"]

"Some of our other cameras" involves a pretty limited pool of possibilities since they're only making eight cameras right now (the two Ursa Mini models, the Ursa Mini Pro, the Micro Cinema Camera, the Studio Camera, the Micro Studio Camera, the Pocket 4K, and the Ursa Broadcast).

Clearly they're going to try to implement it where they can. What they offer (if anything) in cases where they can't remains to be seen.

At this time BRAW is in beta testing on the URSA Mini Pro. Although feedback is generally positive, the beta testing needs to finish before the camera can be marketed as “includes Blackmagic raw.” So it would seem the BMPCC4K may not include BRAW based on everyone saying “next on the BMPCC4K,” but when you push as hard as BMD, first past the post may mean it’s only on the UMP for a while. Good that BMD hears the roar of support for this new codec family. I can’t but think they’ll do their best to “keep spreading the news” as old Blue Eyes would sing.


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There are no technical limitations to the legacy cameras. It's a signature BMD excuse when they come out with new firmware. It's their way of discontinuing older or slightly older products in place of products they just want to support. So don't expect backward compatibility folks. I own a few BMD products and will consider myself a loyal user of their product, and I evangelize about it to my friends. I have been very critical of BMD in the past hoping their way of communicating and marketing will be more open and honest. But I think I just got immune to it so I tell my friends that BMD makes good products but don't expect them to support you as soon as a new thing comes from their way. BRAW will not be on any legacy products - don't care how Grant spins it. It will just be on the UMP and P4K because there is not a technical limitation issue. If that's said for the P4K, that will be a huge BS. But let's wait and see. I cancelled my 3 pre-orders of the P4K and will order it once there is real, and I mean someone in this or the BMCUSER forum, who has reviewed the P4K with BRAW. There's no rush of pre-ordering it.

To their engineers, they need to start thinking about designing things that are modular, extensible, compatible, and open. Their firmware and software needs to be open - available SDK for third party integration and support, etc. After all, that's just computer and computer electronic spare parts in a pretty box (don't reply about how complex a sensor is... it's an electronic capturing receptor part - period).

At this interview with Stuart Ashton, Director EMEA at Blackmagic Design for Cinema5d.com, at 04:10, he states that "Blackmagic Raw will be available for all Ursa Mini Cameras eventually".

Ellory Yu wrote:There are no technical limitations to the legacy cameras. It's a signature BMD excuse when they come out with new firmware. It's their way of discontinuing older or slightly older products in place of products they just want to support. So don't expect backward compatibility folks.

What you're asking for is FORWARD compatibility. The legacy cameras may simply not have the memory and computing power to implement the Braw compression.

To their engineers, they need to start thinking about designing things that are modular, extensible, compatible, and open.

If you want a modular, extensible camera, then get a Red and stop complaining.

Of course, then you'll start complaining about the price tag, because you can't have it both ways. A modular design costs more to manufacture, and the more extensible you want it to be, the more engineering you have to put into it. You have to incorporate bigger FPGAs if you want it to be able to handle newer codecs that require more computing power.

Their firmware and software needs to be open - available SDK for third party integration and support, etc. After all, that's just computer and computer electronic spare parts in a pretty box (don't reply about how complex a sensor is... it's an electronic capturing receptor part - period).

In other words, you want something for nothing, and don't want to accept that reality is reality unless it conforms with your wishes. Good luck with that one.

I wouldn't even really call the red modular-- at all. In fact, I can't think of a single, honestly, fully, modular camera and I'm not even sure I'd want to deal with a Lego on set.

Ellory Yu wrote:There are no technical limitations to the legacy cameras.

Oh, you've opened my eyes! Let me go load up Windows 10 on my 1990 PC.

...why didn't that work? [/sarcasm]

I take it you're not familiar with Moore's Law?

Ellory Yu wrote:BRAW will not be on any legacy products - don't care how Grant spins it.

There's no spin. He SAID it. In the original announcement, he said they were bringing Braw "on the UMP...Pocket Cinema Camera 4K...an to our other cameras". It's at 27:11.

How about an IBC saying that "we have a whole breathe of products that could benefit from [Braw]" at 3:15 below.



8:15 in this one:




They have said repeatedly at IBC that they will bring it the 4.6k and as many products as they can.

Ellory Yu wrote:It will just be on the UMP and P4K because there is not a technical limitation issue. If that's said for the P4K, that will be a huge BS. But let's wait and see. I cancelled my 3 pre-orders of the P4K and will order it once there is real, and I mean someone in this or the BMCUSER forum, who has reviewed the P4K with BRAW. There's no rush of pre-ordering it.

Did you order from B&H? I hope so.

Ellory Yu wrote:To their engineers, they need to start thinking about designing things that are modular, extensible, compatible, and open. Their firmware and software needs to be open - available SDK for third party integration and support, etc. After all, that's just computer and computer electronic spare parts in a pretty box (don't reply about how complex a sensor is... it's an electronic capturing receptor part - period).

If it's so simple, then I wait for you to put together a firmware update for all BMD cameras that incorporate Braw. It's just a pretty box, after all, right?

AdrianSierkowski wrote:I wouldn't even really call the red modular-- at all. In fact, I can't think of a single, honestly, fully, modular camera and I'm not even sure I'd want to deal with a Lego on set.

It's nice being able to customize it with different modules for different needs, but once I have it set up the way that I like it, I don't change it much. Especially on set. That just eats time and adds chances for things to get lost like the screws for the PL mount, and that sort of thing.

If what Stuart Ashton, Director EMEA at Blackmagic Design says in the video is correct (and I hope it is) why doesn't someone from BM come on here and put an end to all the speculation?
Then we can get on with it

Because it's already been said.

Gosh, I still find fanboys these days who gets pissed when you offend their vendors. What morons.
BTW, Yes returned to B&H. There will be more to come after you have dealt with all the issues and your beloved vendor fixes them, that's when I'll buy it again. Smart.

Rakesh Malik wrote:

AdrianSierkowski wrote:I wouldn't even really call the red modular-- at all. In fact, I can't think of a single, honestly, fully, modular camera and I'm not even sure I'd want to deal with a Lego on set.

It's nice being able to customize it with different modules for different needs, but once I have it set up the way that I like it, I don't change it much. Especially on set. That just eats time and adds chances for things to get lost like the screws for the PL mount, and that sort of thing.

Same here. I even bought the largest Sachtler doctor bag to transport the camera almost fully rigged to save time on set.

I'm not sure what Ellory's deal is, but I have a pretty good memory, so let's recap a bit.

The original 2.5k cinema camera was shown off in 2012 and (widely) released in 2013. The 4K Production Camera and Pocket Cinema Camera were shown in 2013 and (widely) released in 2014. New cameras were almost a yearly cycle until the Ursa Mini—where the new thing was the menu redesign.

That menu redesign in 2016 had a lot of great features, including better focus assist coloring. Guess what? They eventually brought that back to their 2013 camera. In 2016, I didn't think they'd still be supporting it. They even brought compressed raw back to the 4k camera too.

So the Ursa Mini 4.6K came out in 2015 (3 years ago). They'd already said the new color science v4 and BMD RAW are coming to it later. What's the big deal? Are people hoping that the 2012 and 2013 cameras also get BMD RAW? I'm all for being excited about new features long after the fact, but demanding new features for 5-6 year old cameras—that aren't even sold anymore—is a little much.

Minor clarification David: the URSA Mini 4.6K was introduced at NAB 2015 but didn’t ship until late March 2016. I agreed to buy the camera a few days before NAB 2016, not knowing if it would be obsolete the following Monday. Fortunately it wasn’t.


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I think those wanting it on the bmpcc and bmcc have been more hopeful in their responses than demanding from what I've seen and the ursa mini 4.6k owners are just fearful of a lesser investment and rightfully so when it appears to be very similar to the UMP but is frequently behind in fixes and updates, it looks to take a back seat to the UMP rather than live along side it. I'd be disgruntled too especially with the no promises responses so far and the fact that BMraw reduces camera issues like FPN and makes for a nicer workflow. Hell I'm holding out hope that it somehow comes to the micro cinema camera, let alone if I spent 6k on a camera to have even the chance of it being left behind to it's brother.

I can understand technical limitations but many people fear that for some cameras may be an excuse because if it came down to profit it'd be a better move to push to sell the UMP and pocket 4k. I hope BMD push to get BMraw into everyone's hands and hope that doesn't mean to simply purchase the pocket 4k even though it looks amazing.

Ellory Yu wrote:Gosh, I still find fanboys these days who gets pissed when you offend their vendors. What morons.
BTW, Yes returned to B&H. There will be more to come after you have dealt with all the issues and your beloved vendor fixes them, that's when I'll buy it again. Smart.

I'm not a BMD fanboy - I am a truth fanboy. So when I see things that are inaccurate, I feel the need to speak up and offer proof of truth.

I notice you didn't actually respond to any of the video links and timecodes that I posted. Do you have a response to the facts you'd like to share?

Ellory Yu wrote:I cancelled my 3 pre-orders of the P4K and will order it once there is real, and I mean someone in this or the BMCUSER forum, who has reviewed the P4K with BRAW. There's no rush of pre-ordering it.

We didn't know about BRAW until about a week ago. So, you pre-ordered the camera for the features it currently has, but you cancelled it because of a new ADDITIONAL feature that's coming to the camera sometime in the near future? Why would that lead you to cancel the pre-order? Even if BRAW takes more time than expected to be released on the P4K, you didn't pre-order the camera for that feature.

michaeldhead wrote:

Ellory Yu wrote:Gosh, I still find fanboys these days who gets pissed when you offend their vendors. What morons.
BTW, Yes returned to B&H. There will be more to come after you have dealt with all the issues and your beloved vendor fixes them, that's when I'll buy it again. Smart.

I'm not a BMD fanboy - I am a truth fanboy. So when I see things that are inaccurate, I feel the need to speak up and offer proof of truth.

I notice you didn't actually respond to any of the video links and timecodes that I posted. Do you have a response to the facts you'd like to share?

No, I don't respond to any kind of fanboy. They are all morons, particularly those who favors the vendors. My last response on this too. Sorry.

Adam Silver wrote:

Ellory Yu wrote:I cancelled my 3 pre-orders of the P4K and will order it once there is real, and I mean someone in this or the BMCUSER forum, who has reviewed the P4K with BRAW. There's no rush of pre-ordering it.

We didn't know about BRAW until about a week ago. So, you pre-ordered the camera for the features it currently has, but you cancelled it because of a new ADDITIONAL feature that's coming to the camera sometime in the near future? Why would that lead you to cancel the pre-order? Even if BRAW takes more time than expected to be released on the P4K, you didn't pre-order the camera for that feature.

So happened it did. I made my choice. Although I want to have the camera, I am of no rush. I will eventually get it when it is in a stable and confirm state. Let everyone get it first, fix it, so you don't have to be bother with its deficiencies. Pre-ordering by the way does not mean that you need to keep your commitment of buying it. Anyway, no need to carry on with this exchange.

Ellory Yu wrote:No, I don't respond to any kind of fanboy. They are all morons, particularly those who favors the vendors. My last response on this too. Sorry.

More worried about feelings then accurate and truthful statements, even after an official BMD rep made a statement here on these forums. Gotcha.

Tony Rivera wrote:As Grant stated in the video most have watched, Blackmagic RAW is currently available for the URSA Mini Pro in beta release and also planned to be made available for the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K down the line. Once those are implemented we will look at the possibility of rolling Blackmagic RAW to other Blackmagic Cameras. Any updates would be released on the support page of our website.

Brad Hurley wrote:One possible solution for owners of the original Pocket would be if BMD comes out with a new line of Video Assist monitor/recorders that can record BRAW. We'll see!

Bra-a-ad! Points!

[Re]Pete

michaeldhead wrote:

Ellory Yu wrote:No, I don't respond to any kind of fanboy. They are all morons, particularly those who favors the vendors. My last response on this too. Sorry.

More worried about feelings then accurate and truthful statements, even after an official BMD rep made a statement here on these forums. Gotcha.

Tony Rivera wrote:As Grant stated in the video most have watched, Blackmagic RAW is currently available for the URSA Mini Pro in beta release and also planned to be made available for the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K down the line. Once those are implemented we will look at the possibility of rolling Blackmagic RAW to other Blackmagic Cameras. Any updates would be released on the support page of our website.

On more to you Michael, so what? Ask me if I care. I don't.

My 2 years opel corsa not have feature of future time machine like in back of the future, I need to sell it and never use it

Oh men ... you see where is arrived this thread?
People that arrogue to tell that 2011 fpga (check the kind and time production of original core of bmcc) can do something is developed 6 years later.
If you are so good like engeneere why not go to BMD or came in Europe on project Axiom to develope a definitive camera?
Like I told in another thread I hope that BMD multiply x 3 the price, 500$ firmware upgrade like fs7mk2 and all that people disappear their moan and start to buy something other.
BMD do big gift to all us, instead to thanks them here we can read free accusations and insinuations... this is the result to give us free that great tech gift. How many camera maker give you so much free upgrade? In Panasonic to have log you pay (gh4/5), to have not compressed or raw you pay additional recorder, in canon without external recorder you not have more than 8bit 4:2:0, Sony give you an fs5 with 4K at 8bit and fhd at 10, without tell about color sampling. And you want to go out uncompressed you must pay again...
and here we are full of moan about people that not have a new BETA toy that other could test, not work, test the new codec before to roll out.
If someone is so tech expert could understand the complexity to develop the variant of half debayering in camera, buffer’s needing a and more
I’m tired to see on a professional forum the moaning like my nephew Riccardo, but Riccardo is justified because he is 5 years old....



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Carlo, I’m much older than that! It’s just I don’t act my age!

—Ricardo


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Carlo, brovo, well,put, I fully agree, and have stopped reading all the moaning and gripping over something thst is still in Beta development. Everyone needs to chill out, and give BM time to finish developing the new BRaw codec. And yes, it is a Codec, just like any other recording format, including ProRes, DNX, and even DNG Raw.
Cheers

What about the Micro Cinema Camera? Do you think that camera would qualify for the BRAW upgrade?

Luca, it is a little early to speculate about other cameras at this time. It is going to depend on how the new BRaw codec is finally implemented, and then which cameras are good candidates for it. We will have to wait and see. Anything else is just guessing. :
Cheers

2.5 years, I would have expected everything noticed so far to have been worked out to a great extent.

Ryan Payne wrote:I think those wanting it on the bmpcc and bmcc have been more hopeful in their responses than demanding from what I've seen and the ursa mini 4.6k owners are just fearful of a lesser investment and rightfully so when it appears to be very similar to the UMP but is frequently behind in fixes and updates, it looks to take a back seat to the UMP rather than live along side it. I'd be disgruntled too especially with the no promises responses so far and the fact that BMraw reduces camera issues like FPN and makes for a nicer workflow. Hell I'm holding out hope that it somehow comes to the micro cinema camera, let alone if I spent 6k on a camera to have even the chance of it being left behind to it's brother.

I can understand technical limitations but many people fear that for some cameras may be an excuse because if it came down to profit it'd be a better move to push to sell the UMP and pocket 4k. I hope BMD push to get BMraw into everyone's hands and hope that doesn't mean to simply purchase the pocket 4k even though it looks amazing.

As a URSA Mini 4.6k owner, I do agree that it should be living aside the Pro. From my understanding...it's the same exact sensor...the Pro just expounded on the regular 4.6k camera and added a bit more features. I can't NOT see BRAW coming to the UM 4.6k camera and would be highly surprised and disappointed (yes a smidge fearful) if it didn't come to it.

The UM 4k has a different sensor than the 4.6k (and therefor processor), which was one of the selling points to me. So, if they didn't invest much time in bringing BRAW to the other older cameras....knowing BMD, that wouldn't surprise.

My best educated guess is it's at least coming to the new Pocket Cam 4k and URSA Mini 4.6k as well. UM 4k is a crap shoot...but it would be nice for them to invest time into that . Older cinema cameras...wouldn't bet too much on it. The studio cameras...they have no need for it as they don't even have recording capabilities.

But if they bring BRAW to the URSA Mini 4.6k AND started treating it as a equal to the UMPro....I'd be ONE HAPPY BOY.

The Ursa Broadcast does, it even has Color Science 4, and can record CDNG Raw, so will be interesting to see if it gets the BRaw also. The Micro Studio has a “Raw” output, that is not yet supported, perhaps a BRaw enabled Video Assist is in the works, that could provide BRaw recording from the Raw SDI output.
Cheers

Even though it was quoted earlier in this thread, here's my response from another thread:

As Grant stated in the video most have watched, Blackmagic RAW is currently available for the URSA Mini Pro in beta release and also planned to be made available for the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K down the line. Once those are implemented we will look at the possibility of rolling Blackmagic RAW to other Blackmagic Cameras. Any updates would be released on the support page of our website.

I guess I thought just because it was in beta that they would only support one camera for the time being. I talked to support and it appears they they are considering it a "feature request". To me it seems weird to have two models with virtually identical processing power and then only release the software for one version (especially considering the open nature of Blackmagic and it coming to the pocket camera). Anyone else heard anything different?

alexthevideoeditor wrote:I guess I thought just because it was in beta that they would only support one camera for the time being. I talked to support and it appears they they are considering it a "feature request". To me it seems weird to have two models with virtually identical processing power and then only release the software for one version (especially considering the open nature of Blackmagic and it coming to the pocket camera). Anyone else heard anything different?

I would imagine rolling out the BRAW Beta to the virtually identical camera you speak of (The Ursa Mini 4.6k original) would only help their Beta testing phase as well...as probably WAAY more people would be testing it in the field and reporting back.

Seeing as BRAW was just released for the pocket 4k, and I stumbled on this thread while looking around. Just wanted to add my 2 cents on one camera I see as having the potential ability to get BRAW. As we know most Blackmagic products include FPGAs so certain aspect of the camera can be updated. Given that the Micro cinema camera is more or less the same core guts as the Pocket cinema camera 2k, but with updated hardware roughly 2 years newer. Seeing as it is also only a quarter of the resolution of the pocket 4k it would require roughly a little over quarter of the system requirements as well (approximate speculation). Given it is still a camera being sold and supported by Blackmagic this, to me, seems like one potential contender.

Bill Young wrote:Given that the Micro cinema camera … is still a camera being sold and supported by Blackmagic this, to me, seems like one potential contender.

Yes please.