Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

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John Bartman

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Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Does anyone know what BM have said about updating the Cinema Camera software to incorporate the pocket cams Compressed RAW format?
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Sherwin Lau

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 5:38 pm

It was mentioned in an interview from NAB that it was something they would be doing down the road.

Hopefully it'll happen soon after the new cameras are released.
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John Bartman

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 6:23 pm

Would be very good!

Question is: can it be done via software?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 6:33 pm

John Bartman wrote:... Question is: can it be done via software?


If you're asking can BMD add lossless compressed RAW recording to the original BMCC-EF & BMCC-MFT, I think the honest answer is, "Eventually. Maybe. Probably."

BMD reps (including Grant Petty) stated at NAB 2013 in April that they "hope/plan" to bring new features such as lossless compressed RAW and possibly higher-res ProRes to all their cameras, but it remains to be seen if this is technically possible (do the original cams have enough RAM or processing power?), and when BMD would get around to actually doing it is unknown.

So, hopefully it'll happen "soon", but don't hold your breath in the meantime.

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John Bartman

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 7:49 pm

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Macielle

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 9:28 pm

Unlikely.

This cameras were announced back in April 2012, more than one year after, and still no firmware to fix "normal" issues like no audio metering, no SSD format or file deletion on camera... so why dream about compressed RAW?

And if you check the speed of firmware updates you will see that it won't happen.

Rule of thumb with BMD is: use and get what is available and stop dreaming for more.
If you follow this you will be much happier.
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John Bartman

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 9:33 pm

Why then does the CEO promise such things?
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Macielle

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 9:43 pm

John Bartman wrote:Why then does the CEO promise such things?


Like I said... you're setting yourself for a big disappointment... again.
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 9:46 pm

They said they were going to unify the firmware across all the cameras, which implies that all the cameras will have the same functions (with the exception of sensor-related functionality)... so it seems likely that the original BMCC will receive compressed DNG when the unified firmware becomes available.

...that and lossless DNG would be far less processor intensive than encoding ProRes/DNXHD.
Last edited by Aaron Scheiner on Wed May 29, 2013 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostWed May 29, 2013 9:46 pm

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sean mclennan

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 2:18 pm

Macielle wrote:This cameras were announced back in April 2012, more than one year after, and still no firmware to fix "normal" issues like no audio metering, no SSD format or file deletion on camera... so why dream about compressed RAW?


Those are not "issues". They are feature requests.

They weren't on the spec list when you bought the camera.

They were never promised. They were never said to be "coming".

These are users "wish list" items. Nothing more. No guarantee or promise that BM will spend time/money/resources to engineer these features into a camera they already sold. Even if we all (myself included) want them.

You got the camera you paid for.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 2:23 pm

sean mclennan wrote:You got the camera you paid for.


+1
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 2:30 pm

sean mclennan wrote:Those are not "issues". They are feature requests.


Drop by Wally World and check out the consumer camcorders. See if you can find one that doesn't have VU meters. Some things aren't features as much as they are givens.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 2:57 pm

Please show me a spec list that says:

- No SSD formatting or shot management in camera
- No audio volume monitoring
- Independant recording and preview colour modes but not on external monitors
- Overexposed areas of images appear as black

Then your arguement would make sense. There is a social contract between ealier adopters of this camera and Blackmagic that they'll address basic issues with the camera to bring its functionality to a the base level of what's expected functionality wise in the industry.

These requests are not the same as asking for 60p or HDR mode. These are things so basic and implied they don't get mentioned on spec lists.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 3:05 pm

Yeah, almost any camera at best buy has a level meter. My DVX-100 from a decade ago told me how much space was left on the tape. My $400 GoPro allows me to playback and delete files. It shows me how much time is remaining on the card. It even lets me format the card. So some things are just givens. I knew the camera had 1/4" inputs when I bought it and that it didn't have phantom power. I thought that was stupid but I made arrangements to deal with it. A normal person, though, would never expect a camera to lack VU meters and other basic functionality.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 3:08 pm

metaljesus wrote:Please show me a spec list that says:

- No SSD formatting or shot management in camera
- No audio volume monitoring
- Independant recording and preview colour modes but not on external monitors
- Overexposed areas of images appear as black


Also you could add - Flange depth/Backfocus issue
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sean mclennan

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 3:41 pm

metaljesus wrote:Please show me a spec list that says:

- No SSD formatting or shot management in camera
- No audio volume monitoring
- Independant recording and preview colour modes but not on external monitors
- Overexposed areas of images appear as black

Then your arguement would make sense. There is a social contract between ealier adopters of this camera and Blackmagic that they'll address basic issues with the camera to bring its functionality to a the base level of what's expected functionality wise in the industry.

These requests are not the same as asking for 60p or HDR mode. These are things so basic and implied they don't get mentioned on spec lists.


Please... :roll: even though it's not listed, because other cameras offer it, it's assumed it should be on there? riiiiiight. Do you buy cars the same way? Where's my satnav? all the competitors include satnav at no charge, why don't I have that in my civic?

There you go with your whole "contract" thing again. So many of you complain you've been lied to or tricked. Were you completely blind to this forum for the last 9 months? From the very beginning, John B stated the camera didn't have VU meters. What the camera had and didn't have was clearly laid out by 3 or 4 popular reviewers online....long before the camera was shipping. Those limitations weren't unknown. You knew them before you got your camera. Period.

You're all upset because you "expect" some functions that aren't there.

It's a tool. It does a set list of functions. Those are described and listed. This camera has always been touted for it's image, not audio. If you feel BM omitted deficiencies or the camera doesn't have the functions you want, simply return it. There are still many people waiting in line and they would sure love to get their hands on it.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 3:57 pm

Sean, not trying to be argumentative but we were shocked to hear that the BMCC lacked VUs a year ago (actually, it's been over a year now, huh?) and were assured the VUs would be coming via a firmware upd8.

I decided to pass for now on a BMCC and to w8 until the dust settles to see if I want to buy one. All of this figures in to my decision. I can tell you that my car came with a steering wheel and tires and those two things sure weren't listed in the specifications.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 4:04 pm

sean mclennan wrote:Please... :roll: even though it's not listed, because other cameras offer it, it's assumed it should be on there? riiiiiight. Do you buy cars the same way? Where's my satnav? all the competitors include satnav at no charge, why don't I have that in my civic?


All cars have certain basic things the people have come to expect; turn signals, mirrors, wheels, paint, headlights. And on all cars they function in the same basic way. I can except that, as an early adopter, the firmware wouldn't be perfect and I'm even willing to offer constructive feedback to the company if it will help make the camera better. What I can't except is that the company announced "replacement" models when they hadn't even filled the back orders for the original model. I can't except that they are more focused on replacing this model than fixing the glaring issues that a lot of people have pointed out. When Red replaced their original model they offered a free upgrade. Granted, this is a 3k camera; but it is still a camera that lacks basic, expected functionality.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 4:08 pm

Aaron Scheiner wrote:They said they were going to unify the firmware across all the cameras, which implies that all the cameras will have the same functions (with the exception of sensor-related functionality)... so it seems likely that the original BMCC will receive compressed DNG when the unified firmware becomes available.

...that and lossless DNG would be far less processor intensive than encoding ProRes/DNXHD.


Again:

BMD reps (including Grant Petty) stated at NAB 2013 in April that they "hope/plan" to bring new features such as lossless compressed RAW and possibly higher-res ProRes to all their cameras, but it remains to be seen if this is technically possible (do the original cams have enough RAM or processing power?), and when BMD would get around to actually doing it is unknown.

Grant Petty is a very smart & talented fellow, but sometimes software & hardware engineers (the ones who work for him) discover things as they get down into the "weeds" that weren't obvious at first. Sometimes they discover that the hardware simply can't accommodate hoped-for features/capabilities. This happens all the time, at every company.

I believe Mr. Petty & staff are sincere when they say they "hope" to achieve certain things, and I've also seen plenty of evidence that they are capable to achieving great things when fate is with them. But sometimes all the talent, money, and good luck in the world isn't enough. There's nothing unique about Blackmagic Design in this regard.

There are also hardware-limited aspects of all cameras that their designers are well-aware of from the start. These aren't bugs or faults, they're simply the way the particular pile of components work, period. For example, I don't know for sure, but I suspect the reason the BMCC HD-SDI output is always in Film/log mode when recording RAW (but the LCD is switchable to Film/Video) might be a hardware limitation having to do with the size and speed of the BMCC's video frame buffer or speed of its processor. Again, I can't be sure of this, but it's a possibility. If true, why is like this? The simplest reason would be cost: To keep the cost down. Both the cost for BMD and you, the customer. Now, some customers might not like this particular "non-feature" and chose to buy a different camera. Again, there's nothing unique about BMD or the BMCC in this regard.

Meanwhile, I agree: There are certain baseline features a video "camcorder" should include. For example, why bother including relatively high-quality audio recording hardware capability in a product if you don't also provide a way for the user to know if audio is being clipped or not? Note they included zebras to indicate sensor (video) clipping, but not an equivalent to indicate audio clipping (such as VU meters or a simple green/red icon).

However, other features are genuinely debatable. Although it's common for most camcorders to be able to delete clips in-camera, it's not common for "cinema cameras" to include this feature. Some do, some don't. I believe BMD when they say they strongly feel that deleting clips in-camera is not a feature they want in their cinema cameras. That's their prerogative, and rightly so. It's even possible that BMD tested this capability and found undesirable consequences, such SSD performance issues related to disk/file fragmentation. Again, some customers might not like this particular "non-feature" and chose to buy a different camera.

Lastly, especially at this point, with few exceptions BMD is now well-aware of what features customers desire in a modern video camera. Some of these features are already in the original BMCC-EF (and more, and less), another is in the mythical BMCC-MFT, more are in the new BMPCC and BMPC-4K cameras. My guess is that even more of what customers want will be in future BMD cameras. That's how these things go.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 4:54 pm

I find it a bit annoying when people come here to defend Blackmagic just for the sake of it. It reminds me very of the RED user forum experience.
It is not that in this thread anyone had any impossible improvement request. It are really basic things the camera is missing like the mentioned VU meters for audio, the remaining recording time - this is absolutely nothing which could be prevented by technical issues. They even don't have to reinvent the wheel - there are other Blackmagic products happily doing exactly those things.

I can live without formatting capabilities and I am very happy that there is no delete footage function - I have already experienced what could happen if a camera has this function and there is a silly minded/careless person (or with a bad attitude) nearby having a few seconds of unattended access to the camera.

But I definitely expect basic status information on my camera necessary for doing the job it is meant for.
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 5:03 pm

When people have asked me why I'm using an external audio recording device with the BMCC, I've told them it's because the BMCC doesn't have audio metering*. My response has so far always resulted in the other party giving me a strange look and then pausing for a moment while they get to grips with the concept of a camera like the BMCC not having audio metering... but featuring two massive sockets for balanced audio input.

I wonder what would happen if Nagra released an audio recording product that lacked audio metering ? Sorry, it wasn't on the spec sheet :P maybe next time ?

I'm thinking of using my Nanoflash in future for audio level metering...

*lets not forget the weird filtering and the lack of phantom power. The lack of phantom power is okay... many mics don't need 48V and you can use a field mixer... but it's just another factor that makes the BMCCs audio undesirable.
** and it's purely by accident I changed my avatar yesterday to a Nagra's audio level meter lol.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 5:35 pm

Aaron Scheiner wrote:When people have asked me why I'm using an external audio recording device with the BMCC, I've told them it's because the BMCC doesn't have audio metering.


While I agree the BMCC should have them, I don't think I've ever used the VU meters on my Scarlet. Seperate audio's standard on almost every job I've done, even when sound and video are the same person.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 6:04 pm

Different markets ;)

My car has a radio, but I never use it because I always bring a portable radio with me.
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sean mclennan

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 7:47 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:I find it a bit annoying when people come here to defend Blackmagic just for the sake of it. It reminds me very of the RED user forum experience.
It is not that in this thread anyone had any impossible improvement request. It are really basic things the camera is missing like the mentioned VU meters for audio, the remaining recording time - this is absolutely nothing which could be prevented by technical issues. They even don't have to reinvent the wheel - there are other Blackmagic products happily doing exactly those things.

I can live without formatting capabilities and I am very happy that there is no delete footage function - I have already experienced what could happen if a camera has this function and there is a silly minded/careless person (or with a bad attitude) nearby having a few seconds of unattended access to the camera.

But I definitely expect basic status information on my camera necessary for doing the job it is meant for.


I find it equally annoying seeing the "cinematography" forum being filled with posts from people making false statements. Like being promised, guaranteed, lied to or cheated. These comments are false and factless. They are also very negative for new people interested in this great camera. I don't mind if they were facts. I don't mind people pointing out limitations or genuine flaws or request features.

These limited few individuals create a culture of uncertainty and we now get panic posts about non-existent issues. OMG, my fan's running!! Should it do that? Is my camera defective?!! My BMCC won't recognize my SSD, it's broken. DOA...oh wait, I formatted it wrong.

Marc, yes...I was disappointed when I learned there were no VU meters. YES, I want VU meters! I would love for BM to add them. I'm not saying it's wrong or unreasonable to ask BM to add them. However, I'm not buying a BMCC for paid, commercial work on the assumption that they are definitely going to be there, then complain and freak out on BM because they aren't and it made my job hard or impossible. If you expected VU meters, and feel they're as vital as wheels or paint on a car, would you buy a car without those things? Why did you buy the BMCC?

I, and everyone else, knew it had no VU meters. I have off-camera recording already...cause the audio sucks on the 5D. I'm used to that workflow and can continue to do so until BM improves the audio features. Sorry, make that IF. That is why I still lined up and put in my deposit to get the BMCC.

The camera was designed, from the start, as a "cinema" camera. It was designed to be used with off camera battery supply. It was designed to use non-proprietary removable media. It was designed to use off camera sound. That built-in mic, like all built-in mics, is complete ****. It was designed with one main goal...produce beautiful, cinematic images. It does that exceptionally well. It doesn't have built in NDs, it doesn't have a built-in lens, or zoom, or autofocus. These are all items considered VITAL on camcorders.

The BMCC is not a camcorder, and I'm just fine with that.
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John Bartman

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 7:57 pm

sean mclennan - what a hero! thank you for you fantastic comments which make this forum so useful.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 8:27 pm

I'm so happy you got your camera John! It's been refreshing to see all your positive posts :D
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 8:47 pm

I am sure all the people still waiting for their MFT´s, promised in october, are just as pleased.

The BMCC itself is great, not perfect, but the images coming out of it are beautiful, just as promised.
However BM´s communication and grass roots consumer environment is really appalling and I still feel for all those customers still waiting for their MFT´s, I hope for their sakes that BM compensate them with some added features. :|
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 8:54 pm

Sean if you consider VU meters to be a 'feature' (and one that would be listed on a spec sheet, no less) and not a fundamental part of a sound recording device then there's no point having any discussion on the distinction. You're entitled to your opinion but I do think most people will disagree with you.

I realise you're exaggerating for effect, but I don't think anyone who absolutely needs VU meters and can't use the camera without them will have bought this camera. As you say, that would be absurd.

Some of us though fairly believed that seeing as the audio recording functions of the camera were currently not usable, a fix would be in the works - and in the mean time we'll work around the issue. If your attitude of 'it was broken when you bought it, don't expect a fix' is also the attitude of Blackmagic (which I don't believe is the case), then I wished they'd knocked a couple of hundred dollars off the price and left out the balanced audio jacks.

I think if you look up a definition of 'social contract' you'll find I've used it absolutely appropriately in this situation.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 9:34 pm

MunchyBugs wrote: My $400 GoPro allows me to playback and delete files.


My $ 90000 Alexa won't let me delete clips.

My $30000 EPIC won't let me delete clips.....

Some features you're saying aren't there are actually choices.

jb
(For a fairly long time EPIC wouldn't playback files either. Same with the original R1.)
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 9:38 pm

Do they have VUs? :lol:
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 9:40 pm

mhood wrote:Do they have VUs? :lol:


Audio didn't even actually work for even longer on the R1.

Marc we can go around all day. VU's have a workaround at least from BMD's point of view.

I was making a point that not having clip deleting might be a choice.

jb
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 10:51 pm

Is the VU work around to use another product for recording audio?

This is not a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm asking in all seriousness in case there is something I've missed.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu May 30, 2013 11:04 pm

metaljesus wrote:Is the VU work around to use another product for recording audio?

This is not a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm asking in all seriousness in case there is something I've missed.


You can use a VU enabled evf or external monitor that works with embedded audio over SDI.

You can also use Ultrascope.

Jb.
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 5:05 am

I think it's also our responsibility as consumers to look into these products and know what the features are before buying. I understand that VUs and things like that are important. I wish my BMCC had VUs. Believe it or not, I wish the BMCC had AGC because yeah, it sucks for proper audio recording, but it's super useful to prevent getting low audio/hot & distorted audio for your scratch audio track. AGC for scratch audio is awesome in most circumstances.

You have to educate yourself about the product and then, knowing the features, ask yourself, "Is this the right camera for me?"
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 5:11 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
You have to educate yourself about the product and then, knowing the features, ask yourself, "Is this the right camera for me?"



Super good point!
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 9:26 am

sean mclennan wrote:I find it equally annoying seeing the "cinematography" forum being filled with posts from people making false statements. Like being promised, guaranteed, lied to or cheated. These comments are false and factless.


Are you accusing me of making false and factless statements? Really?

sean mclennan wrote:However, I'm not buying a BMCC for paid, commercial work on the assumption that they are definitely going to be there, then complain and freak out on BM because they aren't and it made my job hard or impossible. If you expected VU meters, and feel they're as vital as wheels or paint on a car, would you buy a car without those things? Why did you buy the BMCC?


Did you see me freak out in my statement above?
Did I say it made my job impossible?
Sorry - but exactly that kind of comments and assumptions you make about me are similar to those very annoying fanboism type of people which drought me away from red user.
I am not here defend why I bought my BMCC, especially not to you.
I bought it to work with it and I expect BMCC to deliver some of the most basic features in a future firmware upgrade. It is ok for me not have all features from start - but I want to see some commitment.
And to keep your car analogy going: If you buy a car, do you expect it to have a speedometer or not?
That is never listed in any specsheet - because it is a basic feature.

I, and everyone else, knew it had no VU meters. I have off-camera recording already...cause the audio sucks on the 5D. I'm used to that workflow and can continue to do so until BM improves the audio features. Sorry, make that IF. That is why I still lined up and put in my deposit to get the BMCC.

sean mclennan wrote:The camera was designed, from the start, as a "cinema" camera. It was designed to be used with off camera battery supply. It was designed to use non-proprietary removable media. It was designed to use off camera sound. That built-in mic, like all built-in mics, is complete ****. It was designed with one main goal...produce beautiful, cinematic images. It does that exceptionally well. It doesn't have built in NDs, it doesn't have a built-in lens, or zoom, or autofocus. These are all items considered VITAL on camcorders.


Come down from your high horse and stop talking to me like to your camera assistance boy.
Non of the above invalidates anything I have written.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 9:35 am

PaulDelVecchio wrote:I think it's also our responsibility as consumers to look into these products and know what the features are before buying.


And I think it is not your responsibility to find lame excuses for Blackmagicdesign.

PaulDelVecchio wrote:You have to educate yourself about the product and then, knowing the features, ask yourself, "Is this the right camera for me?"


Are you gonna tell me I should have not bought the camera because of the missing VU meters? A product which has professional audio inputs, from a company which has several products (on which the camera clearly is based on) with working VUs? It is not that I expected that feature to be there from day 1 when the camera was announced - but now - more than a year later - there is no official announcement what BMD is planning to do.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 10:21 am

It would seem that BMD's new camera range has their focus at this point in time... but the mentioning of firmware unification implies that the cameras share the same support technology and that only the sensors differ (all the features in the new cameras, minus sensor-related functions, will be made available to BMCC owners in due course).

If this is the case then adding features to the older BMCC-only firmware would be a waste of time, which is another possible explanation for the lack of real firmware updates.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 1:19 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Are you gonna tell me I should have not bought the camera because of the missing VU meters? A product which has professional audio inputs, from a company which has several products (on which the camera clearly is based on) with working VUs? It is not that I expected that feature to be there from day 1 when the camera was announced - but now - more than a year later - there is no official announcement what BMD is planning to do.


Only ever buy equipment on what it can do when you place the order.

What the rest of a companies line does is irrelevant, you aren't buying them you are buying this. Does someone buy a piano from yamaha and ask where the chin rest is, as the violin has one?

Please don't get me wrong BMD really should ads audio meters to the BMCC but it's a well known missing feature, so should factor into any buying decision.


Decent camera sound is something I'd expect from an ENG camera, which it's a struggle to argue the BMCC is designed to replicate. It's merely a bonus elsewhere, for me.

For many coming up the camera ranks the expectation is that there is clip delete, from those who've experience with the cinema world this is far from a given.

In tech the most basic and the most expensive often have the least features. Once you pass the prosumer level of something, many features especially automated ones start to start to become rarer again.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 2:48 pm

Robert, you're at a 10....we need you down around a 6 buddy. Take it down a notch.

If you read and comprehend what I wrote, I address "people" who make ridiculous statements about being lied to and promised, etc. Obviously if you haven't done so, I'm not referring to you.

The bottom line is you were NEVER told or promised you would be getting VU meters. It was common knowledge that the camera lacked them long before the camera was available. You still bought it.

I think what is most likely going to happen is a super fm update. The fm that the new cameras are being tested and shipped with. Once they ship in July, the update will become available to the BMCC and presto, a bunch of new features.

I would speculate, VU meters is one of them.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 3:15 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
And I think it is not your responsibility to find lame excuses for Blackmagicdesign.


Where am I supporting Blackmagic and making excuses? I'm simply saying that this camera is not right for everyone. That's all. No need to be hostile. I wouldn't buy an Epic Dragon if I couldn't edit/support 4K. If I was doing doc work, I probably wouldn't buy the BMCC. I'd get a C100 or C300. It would be great if it the camera has VU meters. It SHOULD. But it doesn't. So, as a consumer, I'd ask myself if I could live with that or not.

Robert Niessner wrote:
Are you gonna tell me I should have not bought the camera because of the missing VU meters? A product which has professional audio inputs, from a company which has several products (on which the camera clearly is based on) with working VUs? It is not that I expected that feature to be there from day 1 when the camera was announced - but now - more than a year later - there is no official announcement what BMD is planning to do.


What I'm saying is that the camera is not for everyone. A Red Epic is not for everyone. An Alexa is not for everyone. I'm not saying what you should do with your money. The Red One didn't have audio for a long time. That's the nature of the business when you're dealing with undeveloped firmware and a company who's plan is to give you updated firmware as they go and not all the features from the start. As a consumer, I'd question if I could wait indefinitely (since they didn't say when or even IF they'd add certain features) or if I could live with what the camera has RIGHT NOW.

That's my point of view as a consumer. There really is no reason for you to attack me, as I have done nothing wrong but state my opinion. Just because it doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means we don't agree. So stop attacking people. We're all here to help one another and share useful information and experiences. This is supposed to be a community, not a war zone.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 3:19 pm

Aaron Scheiner wrote:It would seem that BMD's new camera range has their focus at this point in time...


Maybe they're planning on releasing a big firmware update across all cameras either at the launch of the new cameras or shortly thereafter. Maybe not. That would be great. I'd love to see some new features that I personally can use (VUs, Compressed DNG, 2.5K ProRes - if any of these are coming I have no idea). The last 2 updates for me have not given me any features that I personally would use. That doesn't mean they're worthless, but I'd like to see a bunch of the requested features added if it's possible.

If not, I already got what I paid for.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 6:29 pm

sean mclennan wrote:You got the camera you paid for.


sean mclennan wrote:It's a tool. It does a set list of functions. Those are described and listed.


sean mclennan wrote:I find it annoying seeing the "cinematography" forum being filled with posts from people making false statements. Like being promised, guaranteed, lied to or cheated. These comments are false and factless.


[rant]Amateur "help me" stuff is fine, but then there's the "priveleged few" who feel BMD owes them something. I can't stand that crap. It's why I've basically become a lurker. I'd rather be in here talking about actual cinematography, but no. REDuser is the one filled with fanboys if anyone wants to complain that this forum is. I wonder if there was an Alexa user group, or a Super 35mm forum if they would have unprofessional, amateur ping-pong rants from their members. Most of these whiny cry-babies are vinyl-listening, hipster geek wannabes who throw themselves at the latest-and-greatest whatever until it goes out of style. Then they eBay it or, no...eBay is for conformists...they put it on craigslist so they can hop on the next bandwagon. However thankful I am to BMD for coming up with great products anyone can afford, the problem is ANYONE can afford them. Again, would we be hearing this crap on an Alexa forum? Nope. It happened on REDuser once Scarlet came out. "It won't turn on!" It's cuz you only bought the brain you dink. Anyway.....[/rant]

sean mclennan wrote:If you expected VU meters, and feel they're as vital as wheels or paint on a car, would you buy a car without those things? Why did you buy the BMCC?


PaulDelVecchio wrote:You have to educate yourself about the product and then, knowing the features, ask yourself, "Is this the right camera for me?"


sean mclennan wrote:The camera was designed, from the start, as a "cinema" camera. It was designed to be used with off camera battery supply, to use non-proprietary removable media, to use off camera sound, [to] produce beautiful, cinematic images. It does that exceptionally well. It doesn't have built in NDs, it doesn't have a built-in lens, or zoom, or autofocus. These are all items considered VITAL on camcorders.


sean mclennan wrote:The BMCC is not a camcorder, and I'm just fine with that.


+1111111111111111111...
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 6:33 pm

sean mclennan wrote:I think what is most likely going to happen is a super fm update. The fm that the new cameras are being tested and shipped with. Once they ship in July, the update will become available to the BMCC and presto, a bunch of new features.


I would agree on that. Been a digital photographer for a many number of years and that's how they all do it. Wait for the next mark and a few weeks later the firmware update which addresses previous models will be available. I would suspect BMD's strategy would be no different.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 6:46 pm

The interesting thing for me is, coming from shooting on film, the design philosophy of the BMCC is so clear and sensible to me. It's like a dream camera for a film shooter. It has everything I need and nothing that I don't.

However, I took a job which was out normal for me last week where I had to follow a celebrity around all day. A pretty typical ENG camera type of situation. I was very hesitant to take the BMCC but I figured it would be a good opportunity to take it for a real spin. Boy did I regret it, the BMCC kinda sucks for this type of situation. Audio issues, battery issues, ergonomics, etc. I have all kinds of rigging gear but I cannot figure out how to shoulder-mount this block of metal in any way that's comfortable for an 8-hour shoot. The images are, of course, very nice. But what a pain in the butt it is to use for this type of work. If I were doing run-n-gun stuff regularly, I would definitely get an ENG style camera - not the BMCC. But, a lot of people here want to believe that this is a dream camera for any situation.

I kinda feel like the ENG-style shooters took BlackMagic by surprise. I suppose the question will be whether they recognize this new market and start adding these things or continue to keep it a stripped down image acquisition device.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 7:06 pm

Jason Hinkle wrote:I kinda feel like the ENG-style shooters took BlackMagic by surprise. I suppose the question will be whether they recognize this new market and start adding these things or continue to keep it a stripped down image acquisition device.


Probably the latter. I'm a big Panasonic fan and if you're shooting ENG on a budget, there's really no better than the HPX-370. I really loved the 300 (the Fujinon lens was crap, but easily worked around by getting a different one), but for the price of admission, it was not bad at all. Super comfy on my shoulder like the heavier Panas and Sonys and with the same P2 workflow pioneered by the HVX-200. I am a fan. $8000 might be a tad steep for some in this forum, so there's other options...none that I've personally worked with, however. The AG-AC7 and AG-HMC80 do come to mind.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 8:06 pm

RED has a patent on compressed RAW recording on Camera. So there is a problem other than technical.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 8:49 pm

it was exact way they do it and why they sued sony over it.

if one could do it differently it would not be the same technology.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 9:47 pm

whats wrong with vinyl?

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