Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

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John Brawley

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 9:55 pm

ThomasKoch wrote:RED has a patent on compressed RAW recording on Camera. So there is a problem other than technical.



No they don't. Or else cineform wouldn't exist and work with the si2k.

It's the pre-processing and YUV conversion from RGB that is what they have patented.

JB.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 10:11 pm

What would be nice is if BMD would answer these threads.

The redundant "tough guy with disclaimer" act from "purchasers" of the camera was old a year ago, much more so now.

Can we get an answer to any of the if & when questions?

Data management in this camera (or any other) should be a no brainer in this day and age given the technology, we are dealing with hundreds of gigabytes of crucial data daily and have gotten really good at guessing : /

There is as much fanboyism here as r3d.. Look at all the venom, disdain, or what have you, when ML started getting raw going on the 5d, or all the "its over for sony, canon, red, etc" crap from last summer.

Yeah, its time for BMD to please just answer the people who have bought their product.
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Macielle

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 10:35 pm

Reading this thread seems to me that the biggest danger BMD faces is really fanboyism. It's what is killing Apple and can seriously harm BMD.
Why wouldn't we, as honest costumers, put pressure in BMD to keep evolving and giving us a better product?

Is there any better way for BMD to be successful than to make great cameras and keep evolving them?
What is the reason we are all here? Because BMD launched GREAT cameras.
Can they be better than they already are? Yes. So why wouldn't we put some pressure and HELP them evolve their products?

Everyone has different needs and different views on what they need, and how we want to use this amazing cameras, but who wouldn't love to see some of this issues being addressed?
Some are possible, and easily fixable, some are harder or even impossible.

But, wasn't impossible just a year ago to buy an amazing camera for 3K?
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John Brawley

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 10:56 pm

Macielle wrote:Why wouldn't we, as honest costumers, put pressure in BMD to keep evolving and giving us a better product?


That's why this forum is here.

Trust me, no one puts as much pressure on BMD as they do to themselves. Whilst there are things that annoy and frustrate some of us, look at how quickly they have developed and delivered a genuine innovation. 12 months later everyone showed up at NAB expecting them to be trumped by the big boys And no one did. Except that BMD trumped themselves by announcing their plans for two new cameras to create a range of cameras. A range that shows they are listening to what people want. Where they can do it within their goals of making a camera affordable with awesome IQ then they do it.

Just because you're not hearing from them doesn't mean they aren't listening or paying attention or developing.

jb
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PaulDelVecchio

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 11:08 pm

Macielle wrote:Reading this thread seems to me that the biggest danger BMD faces is really fanboyism. It's what is killing Apple and can seriously harm BMD.
Why wouldn't we, as honest costumers, put pressure in BMD to keep evolving and giving us a better product?

Is there any better way for BMD to be successful than to make great cameras and keep evolving them?
What is the reason we are all here? Because BMD launched GREAT cameras.
Can they be better than they already are? Yes. So why wouldn't we put some pressure and HELP them evolve their products?

Everyone has different needs and different views on what they need, and how we want to use this amazing cameras, but who wouldn't love to see some of this issues being addressed?
Some are possible, and easily fixable, some are harder or even impossible.

But, wasn't impossible just a year ago to buy an amazing camera for 3K?


I completely agree with you, but there's a difference between requesting a feature and coming on here and attacking other users who share their experiences and knowledge and what to contribute to a community.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but there are a few on here that have an aggressive tone toward everyone. A calm suggestion to find the right tool that fits your needs is immediately attacked as being a defense for Blackmagic. I wouldn't let a friend buy something that wouldn't fit his needs. I told a good friend of mine that does doc-style work and who's used to shooting on traditional video cameras like the HVX200 and AF100 NOT to buy the BMCC for a project he had to shoot because I knew he did a lot of run-and-gun style shooting and wanted onboard audio. He ended up getting a C100 and loves it.

I'm all for requesting features, but people need to do it in a respectful way like the way you did it.
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John Bartman

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 11:12 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Trust me, no one puts as much pressure on BMD as they do to themselves. Whilst there are things that annoy and frustrate some of us, look at how quickly they have developed and delivered a genuine innovation. 12 months later everyone showed up at NAB expecting them to be trumped by the big boys And no one did. Except that BMD trumped themselves by announcing their plans for two new cameras to create a range of cameras. A range that shows they are listening to what people want. Where they can do it within their goals of making a camera affordable with awesome IQ then they do it.

Just because you're not hearing from them doesn't mean they aren't listening or paying attention or developing.

jb


That's a comfort to hear
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John Brawley

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 11:15 pm

PaulDelVecchio wrote:
I completely agree with you, but there's a difference between requesting a feature and coming on here and attacking other users who share their experiences and knowledge and what to contribute to a community.



Indeed.

As someone who was labeled an "BMD apologist" by a member of this community, it's galling to find the same users never seem to be able to contribute in a meaningfully helpful way, share their experience or help other users with their experience or knowledge or even follow basic forum rules like using their real names.

Many disappear once they get their cameras as well. I guess they're too busy shooting. As it should be....

jb
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostFri May 31, 2013 11:36 pm

John Brawley wrote:it's galling to find the same users never seem to be able to contribute in a meaningfully helpful way, share their experience or help other users with their experience or knowledge or even follow basic forum rules like using their real names.


I left a photography forum or two in the past due to unprofessional attitude, cronyism and a general disregard for community neighborliness. Basically, some people just need to grow up. Let's hope this forum doesn't fall apart.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 1:40 am

Now.. If we could just hear from somebody that isnt sponsored by, affiliated with, beta tester, or "unofficial" spokesperson for BMD.

Its old guys.

Truth is, if I head over and post a Resolve issue/question in that sub forum, someone from BMD will post, why exactly does that not happen over here...? Since we all know that BMD is "listening".


What good is a conversation where only one party talks, and the other just listens and never responds?
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 1:50 am

John Brawley wrote:Just because you're not hearing from them doesn't mean they aren't listening or paying attention or developing.


I simply don't get it. You mean they are listening and hearing the chorus of customers and potential customers begging for information and have made a conscious decision to ignore them and stonewall the situation? It's almost as if they aren't paying attention.

:?
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 2:38 am

Theodore Prentice wrote:Now.. If we could just hear from somebody that isnt sponsored by, affiliated with, beta tester, or "unofficial" spokesperson for BMD.

Its old guys.

Truth is, if I head over and post a Resolve issue/question in that sub forum, someone from BMD will post, why exactly does that not happen over here...? Since we all know that BMD is "listening".


What good is a conversation where only one party talks, and the other just listens and never responds?


I think it's mostly because the questions are ones BMD don't have an answer for like "When are you shipping BMCCMFT?". They tried the 'soon' approach and that led to more anger so perhaps they are trying to keep silent until they have something definative.

Not trying to defend BMD or anything but a lot of people forget that the reps on the forum aren't necessarily in the know with production schedules or how manufacturing is going. They only have so much information and there's no point having them come in to say "I don't know" or similar.
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Jason R. Johnston

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 3:24 pm

I think BMD's silence is a response. 1. I'm sure they don't want to shake the beehive anymore with what may be construed as misinformation; and 2. the general rule of "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" applies. That includes snarky commentary. Basically, they'll speak when they have something to say, it will be polite and it will be as factual as they understand it to be at the time the comment was made. So keep your britches on.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 3:43 pm

Jason R. Johnston wrote:I think BMD's silence is a response.


I think many people find BMD's silence insulting.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 5:15 pm

mhood wrote:
Jason R. Johnston wrote:I think BMD's silence is a response.


I think many people find BMD's silence insulting.


Possibly about as many as find your incessant whining insulting, or find my incessant "fanboyism" insulting, and so forth.

The point that's often missed is that BMD is allowed to make choices. If you don't agree with their choices, fine, say so, once or twice, but don't whine and snark about it infinitely.

Unlike you, many of us put a lot of effort into answering actual BMD camera user & pre-sales questions here, rather than doing pretty much nothing but whine and complain like you.

And before someone jumps in and says something stupid like, "But BMD is supposed to answer the questions, not volunteers!": You're apparently new to the internet. Note: It's been common practice for many years for unpaid volunteers to answer most questions on internet forums. Look around. Sure, you'll find exceptions on other forums, but in my experience, the best, most useful forums are the ones where 99% of the conversation is among users & potential users. Helping each other. Not whining & complaining most of the time.

Marc, I wish you well, but your negativity got old a long time ago. Give it up already. It's especially boring because you apparently have years of experience you could be sharing with folks, instead of the same complaints over & over again.

Meanwhile, you may have noticed that for a while I've been spending less time here "defending" BMD, and more time answering user-type questions people post here.

Of course "it's a fact" that the BMCC firmware doesn't include VU meters, but the point was made about that fact months ago. Repeating it endlessly is just stupid. BMD knows we want VUs/audio peaking. They are not stupid, or uncaring, or arrogant. It's just business, it's not personal. The firmware is what it is. When or whether BMD implements VUs is their choice. And it's your choice to either stay here, or to buy a BMD camera or not, or instead to "walk away".

But please, if you're going to stay, please do something constructive more often instead of just whine & complain.

Cheers.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 5:34 pm

Well Peter, where should I send my Croc for you to eat? It isn't whining to recognize that some people are insulted by what can be perceived as being ignored. I'll buy a BMD camera (over the counter only) when and if I make a business and/or personal decision that I need and/or want one.

And as for any advise I might give, I haven't shot with a BMCC and have no experience at all with raw workflows. The world is full enough of internet experts who read a bit, rent a camera for a day and portray themselves as the resident king of encyclopedic knowledge. There are a few too many of these characters on this very forum.

Now, where do I send my shoe?
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 5:49 pm

mhood wrote:Well Peter, where should I send my Croc for you to eat? It isn't whining to recognize that some people are insulted by what can be perceived as being ignored. I'll buy a BMD camera (over the counter only) when and if I make a business and/or personal decision that I need and/or want one.

And as for any advise I might give, I haven't shot with a BMCC and have no experience at all with raw workflows. The world is full enough of internet experts who read a bit, rent a camera for a day and portray themselves as the resident king of encyclopedic knowledge. There are a few too many of these characters on this very forum.

Now, where do I send my shoe?


Please only send a pair of shoes, in good condition.

When I refer to your years of experience, I'm of course referring to your years of experience shooting video, not using a BMCC. None of us have the latter (except JB).

Many of the questions that appear here are general production related questions, about such things as basic microphone selection & placement, basic lighting, basic composition, and other basic questions. Some not so basic.

I suspect there'd be many more non-BMCC questions about video production here if the "tone" in this forum was less about whining & complaining, and more about helping and sharing.

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 5:59 pm

Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Please only send a pair of shoes, in good condition. ...

I suspect there'd be many more non-BMCC questions about video production here if the "tone" in this forum was less about whining & complaining, and more about helping and sharing.


As I recall, you said you'd eat one (and record the experience for all of us to enjoy) if your MFT didn't arrive by December 2012. Not only did your MFT not arrive, you cancelled your pre-order and are now w8ing on a BMPC4K. You could have owned and been shooting with a BMCCEF since at least January of this year if you wanted to gain some real experience.

There are many other sites for video production. This is a BMD site specific to their products. As more and more people actually own their cameras, there will be less and less discussion about delivery and more discussion about methodology and strategy. Of course, as there are more and more people with real experience, the voice of "experts" with little to no experience with the cameras will become more and more irrelevant.

Where do I send my rubber shoe...the dirty one? Maybe the experience will leave you with a badly needed sense of humility.
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 6:02 pm

mhood wrote:
Peter J. DeCrescenzo wrote:Please only send a pair of shoes, in good condition. ...

I suspect there'd be many more non-BMCC questions about video production here if the "tone" in this forum was less about whining & complaining, and more about helping and sharing.


As I recall, you said you'd eat one (and record the experience for all of us to enjoy) if your MFT didn't arrive by December 2012. Not only did your MFT not arrive, you cancelled your pre-order and are now w8ing on a BMPC4K. You could have owned and been shooting with a BMCCEF since at least January of this year if you wanted to gain some real experience.

There are many other sites for video production. This is a BMD site specific to their products. As more and more people actually own their cameras, there will be less and less discussion about delivery and more discussion about methodology and strategy. Of course, as there are more and more people with real experience, the voice of "experts" with little to no experience with the cameras will become more and more irrelevant.

Where do I send my rubber shoe...the dirty one? Maybe the experience will leave you with a badly needed sense of humility.


I think the appropriate non-Texan response is:

"Oh, snap!"

Cheers.

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 6:08 pm

Yea, in Texas a man is no better than his word. Bust a deal, face the wheel.
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Theodore Prentice

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSat Jun 01, 2013 11:06 pm

Asking for a little love from the company we gave a tiny bit of hard earned $ shouldnt turn into all of this

Let's all take a deep breath
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostSun Jun 02, 2013 3:39 am

I just find it really funny that so many people are complaining so much about the lack of audio meters in the camera, when currently, if you're using the 1.2.1 firmware meters are useless, as the DC-offset gives you inaccurate metering (even if you're using UltraScope or using the SDI feed), and the 1.3.1 firmware attenuates so much of the low frequencies, that again, the meters are inaccurate (but at least I guess you know you're not peaking) - plus you need to now do a whole heap of post-processing to make the audio useable.

Meters would be handy - but what BMD really needs to do before anything else, is actually fix the audio recording functionality of the camera. 1.3 was a step in the right direction, if only the developers didn't mess with the low-frequency attenuation (which I assume was just a mistake).

There is no reason why they can't fix this quickly. Ignoring the DC-offset and strange gain structure, the audio recording functionality on the camera was working fine in the 1.2 firmware release. All they needed to do was fix these two things, and I'd be happy. Unfortunately, they fixed these two things, which is great - but ended up adding a third issue into the mix.

For the jobs I currently use the BMC for - it doesn't make sense to record audio separately. I need to be able to record audio directly to the camera, to justify using it. We can make it work with the 1.3.1 firmware - it just requires a lot of post-processing, that just shouldn't be necessary.

Let's put the pressure on them to fix this issue first... then worry about in-camera audio meters. Because if they release meters BEFORE fixing these issues, then I'll be really annoyed.

Formatting SSDs, deleting clips off the camera, higher frame rates, and even audio meters I can live without. However having useable audio straight out of the camera is vital for me to justify using this camera. It would also be nice if it remembered the last iris setting each time you powered up. I'm also hopefully that the BMD developers can make the headphone output a bit "cleaner" - as currently it sounds way too noisy, and I'm hoping it's a software glitch, and not just cheap hardware.
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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostMon Jun 03, 2013 10:27 pm

Theodore Prentice wrote:What would be nice is if BMD would answer these threads.

...

Can we get an answer to any of the if & when questions?

We typically don't comment on what's planned in future firmware updates, sorry! The product managers do read the product requests and they appreciate your suggestions.

For the MFT cameras, as I've explained a few times in the MFT-specific threads, we will share an update when we have one. Unfortunately, there's nothing more I'm able to share at this point.

With any camera questions, you can trust John Brawley 100% with any answers he gives. He has been involved in the whole process and he wouldn't lie to you!
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostMon Jun 17, 2013 11:16 am

Pete Proniewicz-Brooks wrote:What the rest of a companies line does is irrelevant, you aren't buying them you are buying this. Does someone buy a piano from yamaha and ask where the chin rest is, as the violin has one?


Not a valid example as those a totally different things with no software.
All functions today in electronic devices derive from software so it is possible to share the code base. I have worked long enough in software and hardware development to know how those things are handled.

Pete Proniewicz-Brooks wrote:For many coming up the camera ranks the expectation is that there is clip delete, from those who've experience with the cinema world this is far from a given.

I don't care about the ability to delete files in camera, but I care about my audio. And not every shooting has the luxury of a large crew with dedicated audio guys.

Pete Proniewicz-Brooks wrote:In tech the most basic and the most expensive often have the least features. Once you pass the prosumer level of something, many features especially automated ones start to start to become rarer again.


Also not a valid point. It is not about any automated features - it is about BASIC MONITORING you can expect on any camera with built-in AUDIO IN, especially when it's using PRO audio.

sean mclennan wrote:Robert, you're at a 10....we need you down around a 6 buddy. Take it down a notch. If you read and comprehend what I wrote, I address "people" who make ridiculous statements about being lied to and promised, etc. Obviously if you haven't done so, I'm not referring to you.


OK so take my apologies - I thought you were referring to my statement.
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Eugene Carter

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Re: Compressed RAW format for BMCC?

PostThu Jan 23, 2014 12:07 am

Still waiting for Blackmagic to fix the audio problems and other issues on the original BMCC, or at least communicate with us. What's going on and when can we expect a fix? The silence is annoying.
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