Blackmagic Forum

So I'm on my second BMCC (EF 2.5k), the first had a red/orange line on the screen running vertically up the screen about one third of the way in from the left. I had the camera replaced and now I'm on my second. Just done some test shooting, and the results are a bit weird.

Now I have a horizontal line running directly across the screen, about 1/3 from the top.

Anyone know what this might be? All of these cameras seem different, with different bugs appearing, hot pixels, dead pixels, in different places. But is this really normal? Wondering whether to send this one back as well.

What do you guys think?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zwewwfm3idyaihw/CKbGVmy2rb

That doesn't look normal to me

Dom,

Did you ever get to the bottom of this?

I've now got exactly the same thing, only since I turned on the camera today. I looked back at my footage and it wasn't there in previous shoots. I just looked at your stills and I've got exactly the same shaped line, in exactly the same place.

Ah you know what man I was away for a week and so haven't had a chance to get it sorted. Just before I went Holdan and BM requested more DNGs because... they can't see the line in those pictures

I'm going to get the camera out this evening and do some more test shots for them. You know, line across the footage during a music performance, line across the footage during a wedding video, line across the footage during a documentary shoot -that sort of thing

I'll upload the DNGs here as well to get peoples opinion. And anyway I thought it would be helpful for us and everybody else to work out what's going on. Luke would you mind doing the same? I'm interested to see if they are indeed in the same position. Need to get this sorted really. I'm going over to Ireland next week to cover some of the EU City of Culture events and really need a working piece of equipment!

DomNicFhloinn wrote:Ah you know what man I was away for a week and so haven't had a chance to get it sorted. Just before I went Holdan and BM requested more DNGs because... they can't see the line in those pictures

I'm going to get the camera out this evening and do some more test shots for them. You know, line across the footage during a music performance, line across the footage during a wedding video, line across the footage during a documentary shoot -that sort of thing

I'll upload the DNGs here as well to get peoples opinion. And anyway I thought it would be helpful for us and everybody else to work out what's going on. Luke would you mind doing the same? I'm interested to see if they are indeed in the same position. Need to get this sorted really. I'm going over to Ireland next week to cover some of the EU City of Culture events and really need a working piece of equipment!

are you sure you are not pushing the exposure too far in post? it is normal to see such fixed artefacts when pushing too far or from having insufficient lighting in a scene. are they visible at iso800 without any exposure lifting? are they visible at iso 1600 without any exposure lifting.

Tom wrote:are you sure you are not pushing the exposure too far in post? it is normal to see such fixed artefacts when pushing too far or from having insufficient lighting in a scene. are they visible at iso800 without any exposure lifting? are they visible at iso 1600 without any exposure lifting.

Thanks for weighing in Tom. I want to believe so, however I can see a line on my screen regardless of ISO or format or exposure or even firmware it seems. You're right, the artefacts are very apparent when the image is underexposed however I just took a shot using ETTR and the line is still somewhat apparent on the run. Will post a video and stills shortly.

Link to quick test. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2697975/Line.mov

You can see the line midway down, screen left over the window frame.

Original ungraded image:


I won't post a graded still because you have to push the footage a long way to make the line obvious on a single frame - better perceived on the run with a fairer grade.

Still of the line on the camera monitor:

wow, that is soooo faint. Took me 4 views to find it, but it is definitely there. I would send that off to BM immediately.

It is seriously faint in that shot, but I wanted to see if it was my expecations being too high for under exposed shots or whether it is in every shot.

They're going to love me...

Luke Armstrong wrote:It is seriously faint in that shot, but I wanted to see if it was my expecations being too high for under exposed shots or whether it is in every shot.

They're going to love me...

Too high? Not at all. You shouldn't have ANY unusual artifacts or anomalies in your footage. Period. Hey, sh*t happens. For the sheer number of cameras they've been rushing to send out, I'm surprised we haven't seen more QA anomalies. The BM QA check has caught most of the issues it would seem....yours is faint, so I can understand it being missed....but it needs to be fixed/replaced.

Yeah dude that's totally apparent.

It seems there are two issues.

One is this line that runs halfway through the image on both of our cameras, and on a few other I've seen on here. It's a line that divides the screen, leaving one half of the image different from the other.

The second is an actual line of pixels across the screen, which I had on my first camera as well. You can see this along with the footage containing the first issue in the few clips & dngs in this folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ik44erz1r15p40b/6E7KsWSw1R

There's also a video I took on my phone titled 'Red Line On Startup' which is in that folder where you can see this weird red line appear and then evaporate on startup. Where this line was then becomes the line visible on the screen, and across all the footage. You can also clearly see the 50% line issue visible directly in the middle.

sean mclennan wrote:Too high? Not at all. You shouldn't have ANY unusual artifacts or anomalies in your footage. Period. Hey, sh*t happens. For the sheer number of cameras they've been rushing to send out, I'm surprised we haven't seen more QA anomalies. The BM QA check has caught most of the issues it would seem....yours is faint, so I can understand it being missed....but it needs to be fixed/replaced.

Turns out there's also a not so subtle black blob on the lower right hand corner of every shot which is also visible in that shot of the window above. I thought it was on the lens but following tests with a brand new lens it seems to be the camera. 3D Broadcast have been very helpful, so fingers crossed they'll be able to get it sorted for me.

@Dom: seems like me and you have had all the line related issues you can get - that red line on startup is exactly the same one I had on my first camera before it died. I have a still of it here:

Luke Armstrong wrote:Turns out there's also a not so subtle black blob on the lower right hand corner of every shot which is also visible in that shot of the window above. I thought it was on the lens but following tests with a brand new lens it seems to be the camera.

I really can´t see it in the pic but black blobs can be dust on the glass that protects the sensor, experienced it some times on the Alexa. It usually looks like there´s some dirt on the monitor when it appears.

Hans Engstrom wrote:

Luke Armstrong wrote:Turns out there's also a not so subtle black blob on the lower right hand corner of every shot which is also visible in that shot of the window above. I thought it was on the lens but following tests with a brand new lens it seems to be the camera.

I really can´t see it in the pic but black blobs can be dust on the glass that protects the sensor, experienced it some times on the Alexa. It usually looks like there´s some dirt on the monitor when it appears.

I couldn't see anything when I looked but perhaps it is too small to spot. I'll give it a clean and see if it persists. Cheers Hans.

Hey Luke,

Let me know how you go with getting your camera fixed or replaced. I too have this problem after sending 2 of my cameras back with an abnormal amount of hot pixels and am now on my 3rd camera. I have this horizontal line directly across the sensor effectively at the half way point. It shows up on white walls etc when underexposed 1 stop or more. I know you say just don't underexpose, but sometimes you want some things underexposed even if other areas in the frame are at or over exposure. I thought after having my camera replaced twice, I would just have to live with it and shoot around it, try to ignore it etc! How long have you had your camera Luke? I got mine in March I think.

Cheers,

Sam

I believe Tom mentioned this and I could have sworn I saw it in a different thread months ago, but at least on my camera, if I under expose on ISO 1600, I see a very faint line across the middle of the shot. Something like a split on the sensor was mentioned, but I have nothing to back that up.

It's not like the very well defined line Luke is seeing and it's impossible to see it in properly exposed footage. I only see it at ISO 1600 and usually after grading it's very difficult to discern if not invisible. I think a general rule is to try and shoot at ISO 800 and below unless you have enough light to support ISO 1600.

That's a little bit alarming! I'll give them a call in a minute to follow up.

@Sam - I don't think the idea is to avoid underexposing, its more about not going crazy with the grade in post to bring it back up because you'll bring out all the noise - you need to expose the image as you want to see it.

There shouldn't really be lines or artefacts under any condition.

Luke Armstrong wrote:

Hans Engstrom wrote:

Luke Armstrong wrote:Turns out there's also a not so subtle black blob on the lower right hand corner of every shot which is also visible in that shot of the window above. I thought it was on the lens but following tests with a brand new lens it seems to be the camera.

I really can´t see it in the pic but black blobs can be dust on the glass that protects the sensor, experienced it some times on the Alexa. It usually looks like there´s some dirt on the monitor when it appears.

I couldn't see anything when I looked but perhaps it is too small to spot. I'll give it a clean and see if it persists. Cheers Hans.

Mine was giving me the blur spots (really noticeable in skies) and it was exactly that... dust on the glass. Cleaned it up and it was gone.

Rob Burgos wrote:Mine was giving me the blur spots (really noticeable in skies) and it was exactly that... dust on the glass. Cleaned it up and it was gone.

Yup, can't see my black blob anymore so can confirm that was just dust. The lines however, aren't!

Luke Armstrong wrote:

Rob Burgos wrote:Mine was giving me the blur spots (really noticeable in skies) and it was exactly that... dust on the glass. Cleaned it up and it was gone.

Yup, can't see my black blob anymore so can confirm that was just dust. The lines however, aren't!

Good to hear atleast that problem is solved, hope you get the other one sorted out as well.

cheers

Cheers Hans. Talking to BMD support at the moment so will see what happens...

Any updates Luke?

Sam Phibbs wrote:Any updates Luke?

Hey Sam

Sort of...

So I heard back from BMD and they initially said they'd seen this behaviour on various cameras and implied it is nothing to worry about because once you grade the footage it will dissapear. I felt this was skirting the issue a little bit, I didn't see this particular problem with the first two cameras.

I then asked why I can usually see this strange line on the monitor, if this is normal behaviour.

They said they'd looked at my stills again and want the camera back for further testing and if confirmed, they promised to replace it. That was monday. While writing this I got an email with the RMA receipt - they've given me the address to post back the camera and provided their UPS account number. Hopefully they'll get it sorted now.

Got my BMCC MFT today and just have the same issue, ha. I wrote them a message, let's see what it will bring...

CameraRick wrote:Got my BMCC MFT today and just have the same issue, ha. I wrote them a message, let's see what it will bring...

Rick, if you submitted an email via the Support section of the website, you might want to try giving a call instead. Sometimes it takes a few business days for them to respond to those emails, so if you want to speak to someone urgently, your best bet is to call. Numbers can be found here: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/company/

Let me be clear on this issue...Is the line through footage normal? or something of a concern?

I have been here on the BMD forums since December, all I had heard up until now it that if you see the line split the image, its a user issue of underexposing, etc..That it was "Normal"

This is a camera sensor fault?

If that's the case, I have been using this camera since march with this issue. ( barely ever go over ISO 800, and actually notice it quite often.)

Ill post some stills of mine a bit later. hopefully I can get it solved by BMD if its sensor issue.

schoolpost wrote:Let me be clear on this issue...Is the line through footage normal? or something of a concern?

I have been here on the BMD forums since December, all I had heard up until now it that if you see the line split the image, its a user issue of underexposing, etc..That it was "Normal"

This is a camera sensor fault?

If that's the case, I have been using this camera since march with this issue. ( barely ever go over ISO 800, and actually notice it quite often.)

Ill post some stills of mine a bit later. hopefully I can get it solved by BMD if its sensor issue.

I don't know what to think about the whole line issue really. I just had my camera replaced by BMD who confirmed there was a fault. It was quite obvious on mine under all conditions. Just got the new camera - looked for the line. Its there. Very very faint, but there. Can't see it in any footage so far though. I suspect its in all sensors to an extent. Either there's a quality control issue or it is part of the design of the sensor.

This is my fourth camera now. I've just put it on charge for the first time, and it only goes to 75% - not encouraging. That should read 100% when on charge, surely?

Forth Camera? that's a bummer...

Over my time here, I have witnessed a fair amount of people complaining about low light, weird artifacts, noise issues, "the line"....The main response from pretty much everyone here is "you are not using the camera correctly, or your pushing your image to far, etc.."

Now I'm confused as to whether or not this is a sensor issue, or a simple misunderstanding of the camera capabilities.

BMD should really outline some recommendations or scenarios where your image can deteriorate or contain strange artifacts. Otherwise I'm just sitting here trying to figure out why I'm seeing stuff like this. ( my fault, or my cameras fault. )

The line in the sensor is there always.

In certain situations, usually underexposure, you'll see it revealed more easily. It's fundamental to the sensor design.

You can see this has been discussed already here.


There's a Line in My Footage | The Reason Why
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4604


jb

Christine Peterson wrote:

CameraRick wrote:Got my BMCC MFT today and just have the same issue, ha. I wrote them a message, let's see what it will bring...

Rick, if you submitted an email via the Support section of the website, you might want to try giving a call instead. Sometimes it takes a few business days for them to respond to those emails, so if you want to speak to someone urgently, your best bet is to call. Numbers can be found here: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/company/

Hi there Christine,

thanks for responding. I'm not really in a hurry and calling from my country and telephone-contract is a bit too expansive for my taste

John Brawley wrote:The line in the sensor is there always.

In certain situations, usually underexposure, you'll see it revealed more easily. It's fundamental to the sensor design.

Well it's not one line, there are dozens, dancing around. And while I think I could fix one line, 20 of them dancing around are a bit tricky.

CameraRick wrote:

John Brawley wrote:The line in the sensor is there always.

In certain situations, usually underexposure, you'll see it revealed more easily. It's fundamental to the sensor design.

Well it's not one line, there are dozens, dancing around. And while I think I could fix one line, 20 of them dancing around are a bit tricky.

Well camera rick (this is a real names forum by the way).

We've until now been talking about a single line. You even said, in response to Luke that you have the same problem. Then a few posts later, for the first time, you intorduce that it's actually 20 lines dancing around the screen.

Clearly, this is a different problem that you're experiencing the well documented single horizontal line issue that everyone else here is taking about.

Might be worth being a little more clear and it will then help those that know to diagnose what's going on with your camera. Like...is it vertical ? Is it horizontal ? Are they there always ? are they there sometimes ?

Even better is a picture with the fault.

It's just not good form to post "me too" when you have a different issue.

jb

John Brawley wrote:The line in the sensor is there always.

In certain situations, usually underexposure, you'll see it revealed more easily. It's fundamental to the sensor design.

You can see this has been discussed already here.


There's a Line in My Footage | The Reason Why
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4604


jb

Cheers John, didnt spot that but good to know that it is normal behaviour. In my case the camera was found to be faulty and BMD replaced it. This thread is confusing because I and Dom had a more extreme line than is normal. It is definitely no issue on my new camera (relief!)

Luke

John Brawley wrote:We've until now been talking about a single line. You even said, in response to Luke that you have the same problem. Then a few posts later, for the first time, you intorduce that it's actually 20 lines dancing around the screen.

I was under the impression I saw a video in this thread earlier with exacly my problem, so I thought all issues were around that. I can't check right now as my internet connection won't let me view anything, but my issue can be seen here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/748408/x-fer/Betty_1_2013-07-04_2021_C0000.zip
A lot of lines if you ask me, but I'm not the expert
Settings are 25p, 180°, 5600 or 5000K (don't remember), 1600ASA, Film LOG, DNxHD. I defocussed so you can see them better. Don't know how much they come up when you grade them normally, however as I have this Cam very new I want to make sure everything is fine, as you may understand

John Brawley wrote:Might be worth being a little more clear and it will then help those that know to diagnose what's going on with your camera. Like...is it vertical ? Is it horizontal ? Are they there always ? are they there sometimes ?

As stated before, I already send everything to the support as I thought that is the appropriate place, was that a wrong impression?

John Brawley wrote:It's just not good form to post "me too" when you have a different issue.

Totally! As said, I was under the expression I was in the right spot, but obviously I wasn't, haha just will look it up later when at my Workstation.

For anyone interested, my unit is on it's way to the UK now, hopefully fixing the problem!