Blackmagic Production Camera 4K - record times?

Hello!

I'm gearing up to buy the soon to be released Blackmagic Production Camera 4K, but my first job I'd need it for is the recording of a 5 day seminar.

I'd need to shoot in 1080p or 720p, with the focus on duration. I don't need RAW for this job, but for future jobs I'll definitely utilise the 4K Raw!

How long can this record for (estimated), in either of those formats, and how big will the SSD drives I need to buy be? Can it record thunderbolt directly to a computer in those lower resolution formats via thunderbolt?

I'm really eager to get this camera, hopefully it will work well for this job, cause it would pay it off!

Otherwise I have to hire a normal video camera... (((

Thanks for your help guys!

Hire the normal video camera.

Hello! I'm gearing up to buy the soon to be released Blackmagic Production Camera 4K, but my first job I'd need it for is the recording of a 5 day seminar.

I'd need to shoot in 1080p or 720p, with the focus on duration. I don't need RAW for this job, but for future jobs I'll definitely utilise the 4K Raw!

How long can this record for (estimated), in either of those formats, and how big will the SSD drives I need to buy be? Can it record thunderbolt directly to a computer in those lower resolution formats via thunderbolt? ...

In addition to their RAW recording capabilities, all BMD cameras features 1080p "ProRes 422 HQ" compressed video recording modes. "ProRes 422 HQ" is a very high-quality, industry-standard, 10-bit 4:2:2 video format; better quality than what most video cameras can record.

Refer to Apple's "target data rate" tables in the following post:
viewtopic.php?p=40742&sid=76392602ac0989c58e57e0d6d201eb2e#p40742

As you can see, at 24 fps, the target data rate for 1080p "ProRes 422 HQ" is 68GB per hour. So, you should be able to record almost 7 hours on a ~480GB SSD. Or, at 30 fps, somewhat less total record time. Refer to the tables for details.

BMD will include multiple software programs with the BMPC-4K, including MediaExpress. On other BMD cameras, MediaExpress has the ability to record 1080p video "live" via Thunderbolt to a Mac computer that has a TBolt port. Since the BMPC-4K isn't shipping yet, it remains to be seen exactly what functionality MediaExpress will offer with it.

A bigger question is whether you will be able to obtain a BMPC-4K camera before the date your seminar begins. I hope you will, but there are no guarantees about easy/plentiful availability. The BMPC-4K will likely be a very popular camera, and I suspect many pre-orders have already been placed for it. BMD has said they "hope" the camera will start shipping by the end of this July. It's possible that for the first weeks or months the BMPC-4K will be in short supply. But no one knows for sure because BMD normally doesn't release information about shipment quantities or rates.

In general, the sooner you place a pre-order for a BMPC-4K, the sooner you'll receive one. When exactly your camera will be delivered to you is currently a complete unknown, but we may know more come Aug. 1, 2013 ... or not.

The thing behind not just hiring a normal video camera, is I'm really keen to get one of these cameras of course! I currently primarily shoot with a Canon 550D (T2i), and short of just going ahead and buying a 5Dmk3, I'm much more impressed by these cameras, notably the dynamic range. Heading into film school soon, and I'd love to own a cinema camera before I even get there!

The seminar video is handy because its one job that gives me the excuse to buy it, however ultimately I'll be using the camera much more effectively for other jobs.

I'll want to also shoot with my 550D as b-cam, and a standard video camera won't be ideal for that.

Thanks so much for your reply Peter, it was MOST helpful! I really appreciate it!

24fps is more than adequate I should think, and 7 hours should handle it all. Hopefully I'll be able to record directly to a computer through thunderbolt, as that will make the process even easier.

The seminar will begin on the 20th of August and run for a full 5 days. My 550D overheats after recording 40minutes of video so it will be a godsend to have a high quality camera like this, hopefully plugged directly into the wall (that's possible right?)

I wanted to buy it in time to shoot a wedding but it is set to come out 5 days after the wedding...rats!

I live in Melbourne, Australia (incidentally where Blackmagic design is from!) Should I buy from B&H or locally (local is $300 more expensive!)

Thanks for your help!

Suit yourself but "horses for courses" is as close to the unvarnished truth as you can get. You should get the right tool for the job and IMHO, the BM4K is certainly NOT the right tool for a 5 day seminar. Renting the right tool could mean that you actually make money on the seminar gig and are free to purchase your BM4K.

Look in to the daily (body only) on something like a Canon C100. That's a good horse for the seminar course and you don't need anything special to edit the AVCHD. I'm assuming you already have a decent EF lens (i.e., 70-200) that will get you fairly close from the back of the room.

And what about your audio? Are you going to try to take a house feed into a BM4K? Do you need to supply mics?

I guess you are right, however renting a camera is not ideal given the fact I'm trying to produce a high quality image for the client.

In Australia, I haven't found a single rental house that offers the Canon C100, and the shoot is not local so I have even less chance of finding one. Anyway, renting costs way too much for what I'm after.

My best lens is the L series 24-105mm f4, and an older 70-210mm.

For audio I can plug the house feed into my Zoom H4n, and I have an NTG2 or Rode Videomic that could be plugged into the BM4K.
I could also plug lavalier into my Zoom H1 instead

And will sync multicam video to Camtasia recording of presentation. The seminar will be turned into an $8,000 per person home-study course, so we really want top quality video.

The BM4K probably isn't the most ideal camera for the job, but I'll be buying it out of the money I'm earning for the shoot. Hiring an additional camera will take out of my "new camera fund"

I kind of knew that the BM4k wasn't the perfect tool for that job, but I wanted to ask the forum to see the feasibility, and judge if i could make it work

I guess you are right, however renting a camera is not ideal given the fact I'm trying to produce a high quality image for the client.

What about the seminar location? Is there a stage? Will it be lit? Big crowd or is this a performance for the camera? Nobody has seen any BM4K footage yet so we can't be sure but it is possible that the BM4K could need plenty of light. If you are shooting in a typical hotel ballroom with no lighting beyond the overheads, the BM4K might not produce the high quality image that you think it will.

Anyway, you sound like you've made up your mind and that's certainly your prerogative. You'll have no trouble locking your Camtasia files to your video...I do that all the time. You'll only use it as a guide though because the best quality is achieved by capturing each PPT chart as a PSD or something.

You're right, it is a bit of a gamble I guess, I'm still on the fence on what to do.

A third option even is to hire/borrow a camera, and have the BM4k as a B cam, with the standard video camera as the locked off master.

I haven't been shown the seminar location as of yet, its in a casino.

How did the BMCC fair for light? The BM4K is fairly similar right?

And why does the Pocket camera have released sample videos, yet the 4K does not?

Hopefully I'll get to take a look at the place before I shoot. I did just look up the casino's website and it appears to have full lighting control so that's handy.

Thanks for all your advice too

... The seminar will begin on the 20th of August and run for a full 5 days. ... hopefully plugged directly into the wall (that's possible right?) ... I live in Melbourne, Australia (incidentally where Blackmagic design is from!) Should I buy from B&H or locally (local is $300 more expensive!) ...

If you didn't already place a pre-order for a BMPC-4K by April 9, 2013 (the day after the camera was announced at the NAB Expo), my guess is the chance of your receiving one by early Aug. 2013 is close to zero. Not impossible, but close to.

The reason I say "early Aug." and not Aug. 18th or 19th is because you will of course want to thoroughly test your camera -- and your entire workflow -- far enough in advance of the start of the seminar so that if you encounter problems, you still have time to obtain a different camera (not likely another BMPC-4K, but a different camera entirely).

Recording & editing hours on end is actually one of the most difficult video production tasks. It is fraught with hazard. Example: You'll want to take particular care that audio doesn't drift out of A/V synch over time, since this sometimes happens during extremely long recordings. This can be caused either a camera issue, or a post hardware/software issue, or some combination. Especially since the BMPC-4K is a brand new camera. Especially since so few (none?) other users will have attempted a similar shoot before you. I actually doubt even BMD will have performed such a test (5 straight days of all-day recording sessions) including all the way through post.

In other words: It might work, but you won't know for sure until you test it yourself (thoroughly, before the seminar starts). And you may not get a chance to anyway, given the huge number of pre-orders likely already placed for the camera and the likely small quantities of it being available, at least the first weeks or months after it initially starts to ship -- whenever that occurs.

So, sure, the BMPC-4K's specs indicate it "should" be able to do what you hope to attempt, but I doubt your specific use-case has been tested, and I doubt you'll be able to get one in time to test it yourself.

Also:

Even if you decide to use some other non-BMD camera to shoot the seminar, I advise you to thoroughly test the camera and workflow well beforehand. A/V synch drift and other issues, such as wrangling multiple days worth of data, etc., are not trivial concerns, and are not camera-specific. You'll want to have these issues sorted regardless.

Best of luck.

-

The thing behind not just hiring a normal video camera, is I'm really keen to get one of these cameras of course! I currently primarily shoot with a Canon 550D (T2i), and short of just going ahead and buying a 5Dmk3, I'm much more impressed by these cameras, notably the dynamic range. Heading into film school soon, and I'd love to own a cinema camera before I even get there!

If you are going for the "cinematic" look and higher DR you should probably go with the BMCC. This was stated by Mr. Petty when the camera was announced, so be careful with that. There is a reason why the 4K camera is called Production, not Cinema. Also note that the DR is going to be about 1 stop less in the 4K camera. My advice is to buy/rent a BMCC witch is available an already tested camera, then wait the dust to settle and buy the pocket version also. You can sell your 550 D to help your budget. This way you are going to have A and B camera with the same sensor and pretty much the same quality and capabilities. So for the same money you are going to get two cameras. The other thing that I don't get is why do you need 4k camera for a seminar when you are going to record 1080p or 720p? If you don't need the resolution go with the BMCC that's my advice!

Cheers,

Milen

The thing behind not just hiring a normal video camera, is I'm really keen to get one of these cameras of course! I currently primarily shoot with a Canon 550D (T2i), and short of just going ahead and buying a 5Dmk3, I'm much more impressed by these cameras, notably the dynamic range. Heading into film school soon, and I'd love to own a cinema camera before I even get there!

If you are going for the "cinematic" look and higher DR you should probably go with the BMCC. This was stated by Mr. Petty when the camera was announced, so be careful with that. There is a reason why the 4K camera is called Production, not Cinema. Also note that the DR is going to be about 1 stop less in the 4K camera. My advice is to buy/rent a BMCC witch is available an already tested camera, then wait the dust to settle and buy the pocket version also. You can sell your 550 D to help your budget. This way you are going to have A and B camera with the same sensor and pretty much the same quality and capabilities. So for the same money you are going to get two cameras. The other thing that I don't get is why do you need 4k camera for a seminar when you are going to record 1080p or 720p? If you don't need the resolution go with the BMCC that's my advice!

Cheers,

Milen

Hey Milen, thanks for your words!

Yes I hear you, it seems the 4K is a little overkill considering it doesn't shoot 720p. I would go for the BMCC but I've been put off by the crop factor to be honest. I was really wanting a great allround camera for my promotional video work and short films, and the purpose of this forum post was to discern whether the BM4k could also handle the Seminar environment. By the looks of it, it can't, and as I still haven't preordered, it might not even arrive in time.

I still prefer the BM4K because of the crop factor that is closer to what I'm used to on my 550D - if not exactly the same. I love grabbing wide shots, so the BMCC would be a pain. The widest lens I own is 11-16mm.

As it currently stands, from all the input provided by the kind souls for helping answer my questions, I've decided to hire or borrow a friend's normal video camera, and also preorder the BMP 4K. If it arrives in time, I'll be able to set up the normal video camera as the master, and rather than using my 550D for extra shots, I'll be able to use the BM camera. This will give me a chance to give it a good test run under those conditions, and capture some nice shots as I go.

Like I said earlier, my focus isn't generally shooting seminar videos, so the BM4K is the camera I want for my normal projects, and I was hoping I might be able to kill two birds with one stone. No harm done.

I still can't wait to get it, I'm sure it will take my work to the next level! And the one less stop of dynamic range compared to the original BMCC won't kill me, I'm used to a 550D after all!

Thanks for your help everyone, you are all legends

hire a c300 - http://www.redfishhire.com.au/digital-v ... amera-kit/

or a few BM's from bens camera hire - http://www.benshire.com.au/hire/video-cameras/

All in melbourne.

hire a c300 - http://www.redfishhire.com.au/digital-v ... amera-kit/

or a few BM's from bens camera hire - http://www.benshire.com.au/hire/video-cameras/

All in melbourne.

Hey fellow Aussie! The seminar is taking place up in Gold Coast. I would have gone Bens hire if I could, I've used them before .

I'm not sure if I can travel with them, but even so I'd have to pay for longer to get them up and back.

The C300 offer from redfish hire looks great, with all it's accessories! And it would work with my lenses...though $1000 for the week is a little steep.

I'll look into it, though first I want to see if my friend will lend me their camera. It does seminars all the time so it's tried and tested, I just don't particularly like the picture those things shoot out

If you have not already pre-ordered then I honestly doubt that you'd be receiving a 4K camera before 2014. It has been stated that the Pocket camera is further advanced / closer to shipping than the 4k but even then I'd say you'd only have a slim chance of getting it this year.

There is a reason why we've not seen any footage from the 4k and I'm really not trying to put a downer on this for you, but you have to look at it with a little realism. We all wish they'd come sooner!

I also agree that this is really not the camera for this job. I've filmed conferences/seminars with SLR's before and I'd never do it again!

HI

Try the thefront.com.au I have hired the c100 from them a few times and they didn't charge for the travel time to get the camera to me. I am in Brisbane. They we a very easy camera hire company to deal with.

Good luck!

John

I am going to be smug for a second. I know it's not kind. But like many of the people in this forum, I have convinced myself of one thing or another so many times over my career that I have 400s.f. of storage at my studio for largely unused stuff.

So here it comes:
You are making a seminar video, right? I'm sorry but there is not a seminar on planet earth--NOT EVEN NAB or Blackmagic's Christmas party, or George Lucas' birthday--that expects shallow depth of field, deeper richer colors, and a truer range of white to black in a seminar video. Not one. They want the image to be in focus and they want to hear what is being said. With the BMC4k there's a pretty good shot that if you get this camera and have a few days to play with it before you begin working, you're going to risk both.

You don't need a C1. You don't need a 5Dmk3. You need one of those video cameras that you are used to seeing at events and weddings and high school sports. A 4k blackmagic camera is just going to look silly and give you WAYYYYYY too much headache in post unless you've already cobbled together your workflow.

Stay focused on your goals in your work and nothing else. The gear will accompany your goals. Your goals will never accompany the gear. The gear is an endless black hole that will suck your time and become your chief go-to for procrastination. But even as I say this, I know you'll never listen. Nobody does. Why do you think NAB is packed to the gills every year? 75% gear heads, 25% people who need to be there.

Good luck!