Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

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Iain Philpott

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Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 9:40 pm

There is a thread going on over on the BM Ursa Mini/Pro Broadcast Users Facebook group from a guy called Alexander Charles Miller who was told by BM that his 'just out of warranty' Ursa was not economically viable to repair after updating the firmware. SERIOUSLY! (BM have now agreed to replace it after some heavyweight DOP became involved). There are other people now chiming in saying that there cameras just out of warrenty were also not viable to be repaired. BM what the hell is going on? This is totally horrendous. How can a camea be less than 18months old and not repairable? If I thought there was no chance of repair on a camera from Blackmagic thats 18months old I'll never buy another one and I have three! Aside from that where does BMD fit in the world where other companies are going to great lengths to improve sustainability, recycling and generally reduce there impact on the planet by reducing waste. Throwing a 'just out of warranty camera in the bin' suggests two things. 1.) You need to stop bringing out new ones and go back to the drawing board and find out why you have such a poor product and 2.) You need to be seriously fined for wilful pollution! At what age in need of repair have BM told you that your camera is un-repairable?
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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:15 pm

Are you saying that a camera out of warranty can’t be PAID for to be repaired?

I E, I can’t just pay BMD to fix my camera after the warranty expires?
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Iain Philpott

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 10:44 pm

Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:Are you saying that a camera out of warranty can’t be PAID for to be repaired?

I E, I can’t just pay BMD to fix my camera after the warranty expires?


Yes that's my issue. It seems that Alexanders camera after a firmware update was not economically viable to repair so I'm presuming it's not worth repairing because it's cheaper to replace the camera. I totally understand cameras go wrong and every manufacturer has to deal with those issues. What I am saying is that there is something seriously wrong with the repair process if a camera that is just out of warranty and has not been maltreated is unrepairable because it is financially to expensive to. That is just plain wrong on every level. It is most definitely wrong for the owner but also for the manufacturer and absolutely wrong for the planet. I totally get it if someone drops a camera from 6' or they fall over by the edge of a river and the camera takes a dunking but this is not the case. BM has to explain how on earth something that is not even 18months old is uneconomic to repair after a firmware update?
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Iain Philpott

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Jun 10, 2019 11:10 pm

Australian Image wrote:Are you sure that this camera store isn't having a lend of you and using this lame excuse to sell you a new camera?

I'm not sure how the consumer laws work in your neck of the woods, but in Australia the consumer warranty is two years minimum and will be even longer depending on the nature and cost of the item. We have a consumer law that recognises that the consumer has a right to expect a product, especially an expensive one, to last a reasonable time.


I don't know about other countries, maybe others could chime in but the UK is 12 months. That then makes it more unfair if someones camera bricks in the UK at 23months but it's covered in Australia. Surely they need to be international warranties that are the same period of warranty across the globe given how much we all travel these days?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 1:37 am

If you buy a $20K+ Sony Broadcast Camera, and 18 months later it needs a repair, Sony will fix it, shop rates are high, and you could spend $5-10K to get it fixed, depending on what it is. Expensive cameras like the high end ENG cameras are modular in their construction, so repair by switching out entire boards is doable, but can get expensive, far more than the Ursa Mini Pro costs new. Sony wanted $200 (minimum shop cost at the time) to replace a $5 backup clock battery in my ENG camera, and the camera was a brick without this small battery.

So what is an economical repair ($5K on one camera, will exceed the cost of a camera like the Ursa Mini.
Yes, BMD could redesign the Camera to allow board level repairs, but then it will cost more like
$10K-15K :roll:
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Iain Philpott

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 7:09 am

Denny Smith wrote:If you buy a $20K+ Sony Broadcast Camera, and 18 months later it needs a repair, Sony will fix it, shop rates are high, and you could spend $5-10K to get it fixed, depending on what it is. Expensive cameras like the high end ENG cameras are modular in their construction, so repair by switching out entire boards is doable, but can get expensive, far more than the Ursa Mini Pro costs new. Sony wanted $200 (minimum shop cost at the time) to replace a $5 backup clock battery in my ENG camera, and the camera was a brick without this small battery.

So what is an economical repair ($5K on one camera, will exceed the cost of a camera like the Ursa Mini.
Yes, BMD could redesign the Camera to allow board level repairs, but then it will cost more like
$10K-15K :roll:
Cheers


With all due respect I do not think there are ANY 10-15K boards in an Ursa Mini Pro!
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 3:46 pm

Yes, it’s not the cost of the replacement parts, it is the cost to take the camera apart, replacemthe parts and recalibrate the camera. Shop time and labor is the real cost, not parts. Also, out of production parts might be not be available.
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Jon Hustead

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 9:14 pm

I also think BM just, like, doesn't have replacement parts for some pieces. My screen flex cable seems to be going out and they told me I couldn't just order a replacement because they have to pull it off a donor camera. They did say that I could send it back and pay for repairs though, which I'll do if my G2 ever ships (or I give up and get a varicam LT instead...)
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Aug 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Jon Hustead wrote:I also think BM just, like, doesn't have replacement parts for some pieces. My screen flex cable seems to be going out and they told me I couldn't just order a replacement because they have to pull it off a donor camera. They did say that I could send it back and pay for repairs though, which I'll do if my G2 ever ships (or I give up and get a varicam LT instead...)


Extremely bad policy! I'm still getting parts and repairs on my out of production JVC cameras, which when purchased without a lens would have been around $5000USD at time of purchase. Yes some repairs are above $1000USD, but that is still cheaper than buying new cameras. I'm also paying around $1000USDfor each Fuji lens repair, retail on compatible new lenses are $4000USD. If I can fix either camera or lens myself, both parties are happy to sell me parts.
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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 06, 2019 10:57 pm

I guess I’m now in the same boat, BMD let me know they couldn’t repair the small section of pink pixels on my sensor. Strangely, they stated:

“Hi Stephen,

Thank you for your patience. Our technician has finished evaluating the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K, and has determined that the unit cannot be repaired.

We confirmed there is a blemish on the sensor. However, despite numerous attempts through our image improvement process, we were unable
to alleviate issue.

Please advise if we can recycle the unit for you, or if you'd like the camera shipped back. If you have any additional questions, I'm here for your support.”

NOW, my issues is this. The pink pixels are a very small part of the image and the camera is 100% usable aside from this. I’m sure this “Recycle your Camera” is copy paste, but yikes.
Why would I want to just throw away from $5000 investment over a small patch of pixels? They must thing 5 grand grows on trees lol. Hopefully they didn’t damage the sensor more while it was at their facilities or I guess we have a larger issue. Maybe change the wording here BMD.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:06 am

Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:...NOW, my issues is this. The pink pixels are a very small part of the image and the camera is 100% usable aside from this. I’m sure this “Recycle your Camera” is copy paste, but yikes.
Why would I want to just throw away from $5000 investment over a small patch of pixels? They must thing 5 grand grows on trees lol. Hopefully they didn’t damage the sensor more while it was at their facilities or I guess we have a larger issue. Maybe change the wording here BMD.


You're not wrong. That sounds gross.

In most cases default to returning the item to you as it is your property. In some cases a product comes back beyond any sort of use and we are happy to dispose of it for customers. In the case of a mostly functioning device we always assume that a customer wants it back. I will make sure our team is more careful on their phrasing going forward.
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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:46 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:...NOW, my issues is this. The pink pixels are a very small part of the image and the camera is 100% usable aside from this. I’m sure this “Recycle your Camera” is copy paste, but yikes.
Why would I want to just throw away from $5000 investment over a small patch of pixels? They must thing 5 grand grows on trees lol. Hopefully they didn’t damage the sensor more while it was at their facilities or I guess we have a larger issue. Maybe change the wording here BMD.


You're not wrong. That sounds gross.

In most cases default to returning the item to you as it is your property. In some cases a product comes back beyond any sort of use and we are happy to dispose of it for customers. In the case of a mostly functioning device we always assume that a customer wants it back. I will make sure our team is more careful on their phrasing going forward.


Thanks Joshua,
I just saw this response and was like “AHHHHH, what happened to my camera while it was there?”, when I saw “recycle” I was like the pink pixels weren’t even that bad when I sent it out haha. Now what’s happened. Thanks for maybe changing what’s said in email responses. It was very scary.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 5:23 am

Where are these sensor flaws occurring? I don’t think we’ve seen a non-windowed sample of the problem. Could we see that?
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:34 am

rick.lang wrote:Where are these sensor flaws occurring? I don’t think we’ve seen a non-windowed sample of the problem. Could we see that?


Hey Rick,

Well, here's a more 1:1 size screenshot. Basically the sensor defect area is what I circled in blue. Am I upset that BMD couldn't fix it...well, only because it cost me to send it and it took about 3 weeks to get a "NO" from them. It's fine, I've been a loyal BMD shooter, but I just got the camera just a few months ago and I thought I could pay for a sensor swap, or I'd catch Support on a good day and they'd replace it with a B-stock camera they have lying around. UNFORTUNATELY, no luck, still love BMD so not bashing them. Like I said though, it was about the response from Customer Service where I was scared, like, throw away this camera over this sensor defect? What happened to it at their shop... :(
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:38 am

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 8:03 am

I think it’s very concerning that there appear to be more and more cases of cameras not being repairable-

I’ve got over £12k invested in theses cameras- Which are now out of the years warranty- is it really the case that if they develop defects that they are junk? Which given that I don’t have that much money lying around effectively puts my business out of business?

Really?
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 3:59 pm

Are you kidding me? The last camera I sent in to JVC for an issue that had an imaging block replaced cost like $750usd That is 3 chips glued to a prism, and then the amplifier boards for each channel, then program all the values into the computer. And that camera was discontinued several years ago!

Are you really telling us that BMD will not replace imagers that go bad, even if the customer pays (a reasonable price) to have this done? This should be a basic repair job that requires the materials, a small amount of skill, some test charts, and some software to load all the values into the computer side. I've done this way back into tube cameras, and early CCD cameras, trained at Hitachi, Ikegami, and Panasonic. This is a required basic service item, sensors go bad for many reasons and need to be able to be replaced.

Maybe this needs to be farmed out to a third party, who do you think you are, Apple?

Give me the software tools, service manuals, and access to the parts and I'll start doing these repairs. This is insane! Let me guess the next part, no service manuals have been written, have they?
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 4:29 pm

What does "economically viable" mean to you? To me, it means that BM thinks it's not worth it to you to fix it. Maybe you'd like to make that decision? You may say, "why does it cost so much?!" Would you be happier if BM said, sure we'll fix it, but it will cost you $5995? In that case, the rest of your argument becomes a moot point and BM was right. So, what do you really want?
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 4:45 pm

Joshua Helling wrote:
Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:...NOW, my issues is this. The pink pixels are a very small part of the image and the camera is 100% usable aside from this. I’m sure this “Recycle your Camera” is copy paste, but yikes.
Why would I want to just throw away from $5000 investment over a small patch of pixels? They must thing 5 grand grows on trees lol. Hopefully they didn’t damage the sensor more while it was at their facilities or I guess we have a larger issue. Maybe change the wording here BMD.


You're not wrong. That sounds gross.

In most cases default to returning the item to you as it is your property. In some cases a product comes back beyond any sort of use and we are happy to dispose of it for customers. In the case of a mostly functioning device we always assume that a customer wants it back. I will make sure our team is more careful on their phrasing going forward.


Joshua, may I propose a suggestion?

Me - and I think most of your customers - does make the thought of what would happen when something happens out of warranty to our cameras, quite nervous. I also don't like the throw away aspect from an environmental perspective.

We all understand that Blackmagic is a business and cannot give away money, but we - your customers - cannot do either.

What I'd like to see is an improvement for those kind of situations:

1. Offer us to buy extended warranty packages, like 3, 5, or 7 years to protect our investment
2. Implement regional certified third party repair shops with access to spare parts and service manuals for paid out-of-warranty repairs.

It would be really cool if you could spark an internal discussion about this to improve things for the benefit of all. :)
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 4:48 pm

And perhaps a formal statement about what can and can't be repaired, after the warranty period. It's only fair....
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 5:42 pm

The 4.6k sensor in the ursa turret was going to cost 1600 so I guess the cost of the sensor is less than that.
I’d consider that to be economically repairable even with some labour thrown in...

After all it’s still better value than the 11k it cost to replace an alev chip and better value than 8k for a new fs7!
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm

I agree, that a formal statement of what can and can’t be fixed is needed. As before BMD let me send my camera they had me do somebody tests and send it to them. So when I did I assumed they’d have evaluated the tests I sent to see if it was a good or bad idea. It cost me $100 and a month of no camera.

Like I said, I’m not mad about not fixing it, just disappointed in how the Customer Service responded. Especially when I had to follow up with them as it took quite a long time for them to evaluate it. Quote from their policy:

“3. Blackmagic Design will repair or if unrepairable, replace products that are confirmed defective. If we are unable to reproduce the reported behavior, we will ship the unit back to the customer, as is. Upon receiving the products, repaired units will normally be shipped out within ten business days and replacement products will generally be shipped out within five business days”

That said, I assumed they should replace my defective sensor since it’s in black and white from them to me. My camera was with them for 18 business days which is longer than they stated it normally should be, and then I received a flat no. So, I was going off expectations BMD set, not my own.
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Joshua Helling

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 07, 2019 10:45 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:...

Joshua, may I propose a suggestion?

Me - and I think most of your customers - does make the thought of what would happen when something happens out of warranty to our cameras, quite nervous. I also don't like the throw away aspect from an environmental perspective.

We all understand that Blackmagic is a business and cannot give away money, but we - your customers - cannot do either.


We try to repair all that we can. And what we can repair changes occasionally as our satellite office tools improve and parts are made available. In the case of this camera about the only thing we can't repair is the sensor. It's the most expensive part of the camera and it also requires a clean room. We have a clean room which allows us to service much of the camera but is not sufficient for fully opening the sensor.

Defective product makes it's way back to HQ. In our office we do our best to reclaim as many useful parts as possible. This varies, depending on fault and product obviously.


Robert Niessner wrote:What I'd like to see is an improvement for those kind of situations:

1. Offer us to buy extended warranty packages, like 3, 5, or 7 years to protect our investment
2. Implement regional certified third party repair shops with access to spare parts and service manuals for paid out-of-warranty repairs.

It would be really cool if you could spark an internal discussion about this to improve things for the benefit of all. :)


1. This is something that comes up often internally. And I think we'd really like to do something like this. This has been discussed positively.
2. In the US we are of course that shop, and I suppose we could work with a dealer that wished to do so but not many dealers are both interested and qualified. I have a few territories that can do repairs in South America and have access to parts. They do both in warranty and out of warranty repairs.

Rest assured, these issues are discussed, we just don't typically discuss this stuff until we're ready to roll something out.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 12:25 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
In the case of this camera about the only thing we can't repair is the sensor. It's the most expensive part of the camera and it also requires a clean room. We have a clean room which allows us to service much of the camera but is not sufficient for fully opening the sensor.


I guess that’s my rub a bit more now Joshua, BMD has me send the tests and knew the issue was the sensor. I was asked to do the tests to ensure before I did that the issue wasn’t shading etc. and I was still instructed to send it in. If it’s known that when the sensor is the issue why instruct a customer to do so? Like Robert said, we as customers have no idea about these things and can’t make a informed investment without them. I just assumed due to the issue BMD would replace the camera, because of what I received in writing, but I know better now.

Thank you for responding.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 3:36 am

Joshua, wow thank you for these insights and I am glad to hear that Blackmagic is considering this.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 am

Joshua Helling wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:...

Joshua, may I propose a suggestion?

Me - and I think most of your customers - does make the thought of what would happen when something happens out of warranty to our cameras, quite nervous. I also don't like the throw away aspect from an environmental perspective.

We all understand that Blackmagic is a business and cannot give away money, but we - your customers - cannot do either.


We try to repair all that we can. And what we can repair changes occasionally as our satellite office tools improve and parts are made available. In the case of this camera about the only thing we can't repair is the sensor. It's the most expensive part of the camera and it also requires a clean room. We have a clean room which allows us to service much of the camera but is not sufficient for fully opening the sensor.

Defective product makes it's way back to HQ. In our office we do our best to reclaim as many useful parts as possible. This varies, depending on fault and product obviously.


Robert Niessner wrote:What I'd like to see is an improvement for those kind of situations:

1. Offer us to buy extended warranty packages, like 3, 5, or 7 years to protect our investment
2. Implement regional certified third party repair shops with access to spare parts and service manuals for paid out-of-warranty repairs.

It would be really cool if you could spark an internal discussion about this to improve things for the benefit of all. :)


1. This is something that comes up often internally. And I think we'd really like to do something like this. This has been discussed positively.
2. In the US we are of course that shop, and I suppose we could work with a dealer that wished to do so but not many dealers are both interested and qualified. I have a few territories that can do repairs in South America and have access to parts. They do both in warranty and out of warranty repairs.

Rest assured, these issues are discussed, we just don't typically discuss this stuff until we're ready to roll something out.


I just bought a UMP G2 about 3 months about and a couple of P6K this month. While they are all still under warranty, I am concern that when the warranty expires and something goes wrong with the camera, there goes my investment if it become unrepairable.

I like the #1 suggestion that Robert made and I hope BMD will have an internal serious conversation about providing such an option. Extended warranty packages can be a lucrative product for the company offering. It also gives such comfort to us customers that we have options. BMD internally knows what their defect rate is and can surmise a model wherein the extended warranty can be offered without fearing loss, and even project profitability. Customers feels confident more on the product because it is assume the manufacturer selling the warranty will want to have long lasting units so as not to have the adverse effect, and that few and in-between failures could be replaced. Obviously, the warranty has to be affordable as well. New and current owners who have their camera within the warranty period can but an extended warranty for cheaper and longer (3,5, or 7 years) and out of warranty customers may be charge a higher premium for a short term. This all makes sense - both to BMD and camera owners.

Joshua, I hope something like this can be available in the coming months. Thank you for listening to us and giving this some consideration.
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Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:21 am

Stephen, thanks for the sample image. I was going to suggest that you might be able to salvage some use of the camera if the blemish was near the edge of frame. But this is even inside the HD window I think so that idea won’t fly.

Not the best solution, but would the dead pixel remover in Resove work to hide the blemish by blending the colour of the surrounding pixels onto the bad pixel?
Last edited by rick.lang on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:47 am

rick.lang wrote:Stephen, thanks for the sample image. I was going to suggest that you might be able to salvage some use of the camera if the blemish was near the edge of frame. But this is even inside the HD window I think so that idea won’t fly.

Not the best solution, but would the hoy pixel remover in Resove work to hide the blemish by blending the colour of the surrounding pixels onto the bad pixel?


Hey Rick, yeah, I can totally use the dead pixel fixer in Resolve to blend it, especially for static shots it’s perfectly fine and I already created a remote node to deal with it the best I could. If BMD refuses to fix or replace this is my solution. I can only hope that in the future when I buy the next BMD camera I’ll call support and understand their support policies better.

I also actually asked BMD if they could remap the sensor so those pixels would be on the outer part of the frame, but I guess that’s not how it works. :)
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:13 pm

I’m glad using a dead pixel node is a reasonable fix. Better than trashing the camera. I used to have a stuck pixel that was red, and the dead pixel remover was my friend; but it appears my stuck pixel fixed itself so I haven’t been using it for quite awhile. Terribly disappointing when a perfect camera develops a flaw like that, but I’ll keep using mine as long as possible. Good I have the BMPCC4K in the stable if the URSA Mini 4.6K starts limping.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:26 pm

I guess the idea is, the relatively low purchase price is advance compensation against the prospect that you'll have a worthless camera in 12 months and 1 day. The problem is, most customers buy one camera, not 1000. If yours is the one that fails, the odds don't help you.

It's hard to see how this business model is ethically justified.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:03 pm

Paying for an insurance is more or less the same model, just the other way around…
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostTue Nov 12, 2019 7:26 pm

https://www.airscience.com/laminar-flow-hoods

People are using similar in hard drive data recovery when replacing heads in hard drives. Pretty sure there are other companies making similar products.

After that I can only shake my head. One idiot with a laser pointer hitting the correct angle through the lens and your $6000+, one year old investment is junk. (alternate idiot leaving the lens cap off, lens at infinity, and camera pointing towards the sun with sun in frame...)

I've stopped looking at BMD cameras for work, we have 12 JVC HM-700u cameras from 2010 that we need to replace because they are getting old. But I can still get pretty much every repair part myself, or send them in for repair. That includes the sensor block. I can't buy something that is only good for a single year, I'll lose my job!

Apparently you need to make a design change in the cameras. If the sensor is too difficult to replace, then you need to build it into a module that includes the mount so you can do a simple module replacement and reprogram the camera for the new sensor. Then send the modules off to a specialized facility to handle the imager work, then put those modules back into the stock for the next repair.

I have one of these modules on my desk from one of the above cameras, a note written on one of the FFC says dead pixels. I think that cost around $1200usd for that repair. I didn't do it myself because work wouldn't pay for the software and test cables needed to perform this repair. But I can buy the sensor module which includes the chips (glued to prism), attached to filter mechanism, attached to the back half of the lens mount. Three plugs on FFC cables and a few screws later, and it is swapped. No clean room required. Looks like the price has gone up a lot https://store.jvc.com/view.php?sku=LSH30242-001A time to replace these cameras as the repair price starts to eclipse the value after 10 years. But the fact is that I can still get this part. Pictures if you don't believe I actually have one of these sitting here can be provided.
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Olivier Burri

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 6:20 am

Not pleased but really not surprised by what I'm reading...

I own several BMD cameras (Ursa Mini Pro 4.6K, BMPCC 4K and 6K) , one RED Scarlet MX and a whole bunch of BMD equipment (Resolve Keyboard, Sound monitor, SmartScopes, MicroPanel, UltraStudio, eGpu, Multiple Studio licenses etc...)

In my opinion, their support sucks. Same for QC. They tend to compress the asking price of their stuff at the expense of aftersales service and QC. It's a shame because most professionals are aware of this and do refrain to use their products for major commercial production, where gear failure could be critical.

After 11 months, the liquid crystal of the small screen on our UltraStudio 4K Extreme 3, which is on top of the line, becomes strangely bubbly, distorting the picture. The unit sits in a rack with many other BMD pieces of equipment in a protected closed edit suite. If you except the screen, the unit works perfectly. When contacted, BMD support pretended first it's a damage due to water exposition! Then, when confronted to the facts, they wanted the unit to be shipped abroad for a full assessment without offering any solution for replacement. It's not a responsible answer to a loyal user.

Unreliable support makes one wary of investing more in equipment which is not backed by trustworthy aftersales service.

My two cents.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 6:39 am

Good to hear about these experiences. There are a lot of things BMD does very well, but there’s always room for improvement. The quality control and after sales support, particularly when time-critical l, seem to be two ongoing challenges as BMD matures as a camera manufacture. But it goes beyond cameras as this post describes. Food for thought for the decision makers.
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Vess Stoytchev

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 8:18 am

We had our UMP replaced last year just a few days (2 or 3 if I remember correctly) before the warranty was out. Actually, I was thinking would they replace it because the 1 year period was out if we looked at the order date, but it was still in warranty considering the date we received it. BM changed our unit. I sent it to them on a Monday, it flew to England and we had our new UMP on Wednesday. It was this time of the year and I was thinking about it yesterday - we are out of warranty now and one of the volume buttons on the screen lid broke off. :D

From my experience the support has been great. But I haven't (and hope i don't have to) contact them out of warranty.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 4:18 pm

Given that members of BM have been in a responsive mood, perhaps they might like to confirm or deny that their model of doing business with cameras and maybe their other appliances as well is along the lines of footwear retail.

For footwear, a given percentage of items may be expected to fail. The product is priced to allow no argument warranty replacement and say 125% of stock inserted into a vendor's inventory represents 100% of stock. I had a brand new pair of workboots which I kept stored indoors until another pair wore out. The inventory of any particular style is ordered on the basis of selling the lot within a short timeframe so the stock remains fresh, a totally sensible practice.

When I got the new pair out and wore them, I walked out of the soles in half a day. No warranty replacement was available as time had expired. The manufacturers of the boots know that the chemistry of the soles and the adhesive are mutually hostile but will in most instances the combination will last until the soles actually wear out instead of turning to jello or crumbly cheese.

On might therefore extrapolate that BM buys in completed entire internal electronic systems for their cameras consisting of as few separate parts as possible to facilitate assembly in Australia's high labour-cost/high energy cost environment in as few hours as possible. Australia has become a harder place to do business in over time.

So the entire inventory of a certain model may be finite, with just enough stock to sell out and retire no-argument warranty claims by replacement, not repair. When stock of a model has been drawn down by sales and warranty replacement, the game pretty much may end except by maybe cannibalising some stock for the few peripherals like display screens and control panels until that well runs dry.

The published technical requirements of the sensors also appear to demand that certain PCB design and assembly methods are strictly complied with or the sensors do not work well or at all. When you pull a big URSA apart and have a look around, BM seems to have ticked all those boxes.

The highly miniaturised surface-mounted components are pretty much there for keeps, crowded in tightly and are not easily replaceable.

The weak link appears to be the sensors and their immediate neighbouring components. They do not like heat yet generate a lot of it. It may be that the sensor manufacturers themselves have accepted a design/performance cost compromise in which for chemical or structural reasons, failure will be inevitably 100%.

Miniature organic LCDs are a case in point. They strive towards many reasons to fail, require exquisite storage and handling. Never let direct sun or water anywhere near them. They are costly to replace.

The 4K+ camera sensors may have been whipped into providing a long enough finite life to reach obsolescence but not much beyond. So whilst the BM cams may come up to and exceed professional level performance, the longevity of product support may always be short and reflected by competitive pricing to compensate.

For clowns like me who carefully conserve stuff, a product which has a finite short countdown to inevitable irrepairable failure is fated to be a bitter disappointment. For the person who buys in and uses the product intensively to extinction over a short time frame, the BM cams may be a satisfactory solution, affordable enough to be able to buy in several examples to deal with in-field failures.

Public forums tend to put up sad experiences of the negative commentators or the true-believer fanboys. The quiet people who just get on with things and mind their business probably have better things to do than hang around social media and forums, suck up life's tribulations, cut losses and move on.

There is a lesson there probably for all of us.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 7:07 pm

robert Hart wrote:Given that members of BM have been in a responsive mood, perhaps they might like to confirm or deny that their model of doing business with cameras and maybe their other appliances as well is along the lines of footwear retail.



Robert, did you work at some point for them?

Are you an insider?

Everything you said sounds shockingly true.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 8:25 pm

robert Hart wrote:For clowns like me who carefully conserve stuff, a product which has a finite short countdown to inevitable irrepairable failure is fated to be a bitter disappointment.

I'm doomed. :(
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 14, 2019 11:11 am

Vess Stoytchev wrote: - we are out of warranty now and one of the volume buttons on the screen lid broke off. :D
.

I had a similar problem with the volume knob, called English support and they couriered me a new knob next day free of charge.

I have had a lot of BMD equipment and over the years I've had DOA or other problems with kit. I have to say on every single occasion the English BMD Support has been stellar. I cannot think of one instance where they acted below par and have, for example, loaned me kit because I explained I had a job for the item in for repair.

Now are failure rates too high? Yes probably, but I always take two cameras to every job - just in case - something I could never do when I bought Sony cameras. Even with two cameras I'm still saving 50% of the price of Sony and I much prefer both the pictures and company philosophy from BMD.

I'm willing to overlook some of their shortfalls because I feel (hopefully rightly) that BMD is run by people passionate about broadcast and creativity and isn't just a products company designed to get as much money out of you as possible (!cough! Sony). This leadership comes from Grant and I honestly don't know where my company would be without his products....we just couldn't have afforded to purchase kit in the way we have from the standard broadcast companies.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 14, 2019 1:11 pm

David Hutchinson wrote:
Vess Stoytchev wrote: - we are out of warranty now and one of the volume buttons on the screen lid broke off. :D
.

I had a similar problem with the volume knob, called English support and they couriered me a new knob next day free of charge...


Me too. It fell off seemingly from nothing. I probably bummed it with my shoulder and it split in the middle. So I think they have a bad mold for the plastic (And just to be clear, the potentiometer (volume knob) works fine even if the plastic part falls off).. But as you said. I contacted support. Had a new one in less than 2 days. And it was completely free of charge. Should it break in the first place, no. It is poorly engineered. But my camera is from 2017, so it is way past its warrenty. So legally they could just say no, or require me for paying for the part+shipping. But they didn't.

The same with my Pocket 4K. I had one of the units with a bad battery door. It took them like a day to get it to me. The same with the UMP flare mask. 1 day later my problem was vanished. I have never tried that from any other camera maker (Read: ANY maker).. NEVER!


I think generally the problem is that the electronics is on one board. And sure those are connected to otherboards, but they are hardwired. Not with connectors as we see from other manufactorers. It is/was a poor choice for BMD. It means that if any electronic components fail, its an entire replacement of all the electronics. Which basically means a new camera, as the pay for the humans to change all of this is always higher than a new camera. So any sensor fault. New camera. a bent pin in the card reader, new camera. Etc.. I dont know if the screen is on a connector. I would hope so, as this seems like the weakest point for the UMP.

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 14, 2019 4:53 pm

In California, google Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act. Might apply to smaller cameras considered to be consumer electronics. Requires support for 7 years or a replacement product.


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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostThu Nov 14, 2019 5:49 pm

I smoked my 14 month old UMP G1 connecting monitor to battery plate d-tap.
Live in Sweden so i called BM UK a Monday afternoon about the problem.
Tuesday DHL pickup at my office. Friday new camera on my desk.
Had some other RMA cases handled the same way.

Excellent service....

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 15, 2019 8:55 am

Olivier Burri.


No I am not a BM insider. I just bought some good quality locally produced workboots. It just happened that the company which had established a good rep for its industrial products had changed hands.

The new owners brought in product from cheap labour sources. This had happened without my knowledge and what I bought had been sold on reputation at the price of good reputed product.

I gained a certain schadenfreude satisfaction at learning that the revised footware business, the new owners had in their dishonest greed driven belly-up.

The original owners of the footware business who had worked hard to build it up are apparently back in the game under a new label with reputable product again being offered.

When any new innovation comes along and takes off, there is a honeymoon period in which a near-monopoly may develop until other players step into the game. Then the shakedown begins. Like a nestful of baby huntsman spiders hatching in your house, an attritional war occurs.

You soon see a houseful of spiders with as few as three legs striving to stay alive. By day three, it is down to two or three intact specimens who set forth to conquer the world and multiply as they get their lives in order.

Blackmagic presently has a strength in diversity, albeit in audiovisual electronic product and related firmware/software. GoPro was **** of the walk for a while in its niche field until other heads popped up and started selling competitive product.

It will be interesting to see where RED's future lies. Like GoPro, RED could become vulnerable through being essentially confined to a product monoculture. Maybe it will downsize, go the ARRI 65 route in conjunction with Panavision and focus on higher-end rental product.

Sooner or later, when Grant Petty does a Jim Jannard and seeks gentler pastures, what then for BM? Does Adobe buy the enterprise, strip the IP, sell off the scraps and shut it down? DaVinci Resolve must be a constant nagging irritation to Adobe.

Does BM sit on its hands and change from being at the risky forefront to harvesting a diminishing but "safe" return until final product obsolescence assures the entity becomes irrelevant?

Whichever and whatever, we do live in interesting times. The spring may break in the old wind-up alarm clock. A nymph cockroach scuttles across a circuit board leaving a trail of dry hydroscopic uric acid crystals. In the wake, a voltage goes across on the board after they dampen and zowk, the gadget is gone for all money.

At least with the alarm clock, I can heat the end of the spring break, reform the hook then heat and dip to re-temper it, all with a cigarette lighter, screwdrivers, a pair of pliers and three inch nail as a loop former.

Sadly, the hulk of the "big" URSA draws its growing shadow across the table in the afternoon window light until I put it away somewhere. I liked the thing. It was like an SI2K on roids - until it wasn't.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostFri Nov 15, 2019 7:11 pm

Very poetic Robert. I loved my big Ursa V1 held out hope for the turret. I recently sold mine. Too many people here complained about the weight. BM’s primary camera buyers are low budget filmmakers with a little to non-existent crew. So that design didn’t work for them. The big ursa was a beautifully made “tank” of a camera. I do believe if they had gotten the turret to work the way they wanted. It would’ve eventually been a success and people would’ve gotten on board despite the complaints of the weight. Since that didn’t happen there’s no incentive to make that design especially if the main selling point of the camera was the turret upgrade path
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostSat Nov 16, 2019 10:23 pm

Agree, Donnell, that turret upgrade path was very appealing as was the global shutter. If the camera designers had thought it through, they may have been able to squeeze at least one turret upgrade out of it. At the same time they were trying to keep the price low and perhaps those design goals were conflicting so in the end price may have been the priority and internal modular design for upgradability suffered.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostSun Nov 17, 2019 7:35 am

The "big" URSA except for the externally detachable sensor block is little more modular than the Mini which replaced it or the Production 4K which came before it. A sensor module is connected by a data ribbon cable and a plug. In the BMPC4K and URSA 4K Mini, you cannot get at the sensor module from the outside.

I suspect that unitary construction rather than true modular construction is what killed off the turret upgrade and that BM's design philosophy bit the company's ring sorely in this instance, painted it into a corner with nowhere to go. If my imaginings have any validity, it would have been one big demoralising wall to run into. No doubt they tried hard.

It grieves me personally that the "big" URSA layout is not serviced with an upgrade of any kind and that realistic product support has expired. My suspicions on why the 4.6K turret was never released rest in the cumulative length of the data path via two ribbon cables, the folded one in the turret and the ribbon cable from the mainboard. Sensor manufacturers put out some strict warnings on that topic.

The 4.6K sensor from a different manufacturer and its supporting chipset may have turned out to be less forgiving of long data paths than the original 4K sensor.

To physically shorten the ribbon cable run from the turret receiving socket to the mainboard would require altering the physical structure of the camera body itself by re-machining to relocate the main board forward and some parts substitution. In essence, the whole camera body would have to be gutted, an horrendous labour cost in itself.

There would not be much doable about the folded cable in the turret itself. There is a practical workspace limit if the replacement turret is to be field-installable. The liquid cooling system would still work but moving the heatsink slab forward on the cooling spurs may compromise the mainboard heat transfer. Those little Xilinx processors get hot quick. The big deal killer would be the mainboard itself having to be entirely replaced as the ribbon cable is integral to the motherboard and not socketed.

With the form of the "big" URSA being already out there in the world and owned, a recall to remanufacture the body and replace the motherboard simply was never going to fly. The URSA Mini form factor may be what the "big" URSA should have been in the first place. You carry a lot of wasted air around inside a "Big" URSA.

BM has limited its exposure to the uncontrollable third agency, human hands operating for other entities which have their own survival imperative. It would not have been within BM's capacity to haul back all the "big" URSAs to remanufacture them in-house.

I just miss the practical ergonomics. You carry the camera, stump it on a tripod and it goes, or used to in my instance. There is no having to frig around connecting forty thousand cables, monitors on arms wanting to fall down, fussing with dinky little controls and everybody getting in each other's way trying to get close enough to do their thing.

On reflection, it seems BM did the best and fairest they could do and yet remain in business. In my case, any despair over a V3 turret is moot because the camera itself has laid down.

On newer product, I think BM has to examine modularity and get serious about ongoing product support beyond deathday, offer that something extra or become outcompeted by the new players entering its market niche. Then again BM might decide to get out of cameras altogether and consolidate its core in post-production if we whinge and stamp our feet too hard. Decisions-decisions.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostSun Nov 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Thanks for those insights, Robert. Except for the suggestion that BMD might get out of making cameras. There’s still so much to be done and they’re getting more brand recognition now. On my last shoot one of the cast members recognized my BMPCC4K and was explaining to another that is was a good choice. Sure we’re not Hollywood, but BMD has made a lot of inroads around the planet.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Nov 18, 2019 3:40 am

jerrygladh wrote:I smoked my 14 month old UMP G1 connecting monitor to battery plate d-tap.
Live in Sweden so i called BM UK a Monday afternoon about the problem.
Tuesday DHL pickup at my office. Friday new camera on my desk.
Had some other RMA cases handled the same way.

Excellent service....

Jerry


See here’s my rub, BMD states in its email to you about replacing things they cannot repair, it’s in black and white from them. YET in certain cases, mine, it’s 100% up to BND if they honor this or not. What’s the deal Joshua Helling, I think I need to understand why specifically my case was different from this case? Whose attention do I need to bring this to that even if things are communicated from you to us as the consumer, contradictory steps will be taken.
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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Nov 18, 2019 8:01 am

Rick Lang.

Except for the benefit of maintaining diversity of enterprise and risk reduction, don't dismiss BM getting out of cameras entirely, badge-stickering third-party product or confining itself to the high-performing "consumer level" models which the BMPCC4K and BMPCC6K identifiably are to most folk. Grant Petty is no spring chicken any more. The enterprise has to follow the money after all or die on its bum while sitting down doing nothing. BM of course might do a RED and split to truly professional level modular enduring cameras at the necessary prices for this to be viable and sell a low-cost low-endurance product into the consumer marketplace. Striking the balance between eating away the higher-end product marketplace with low-end product of competing performance will be challenging. Red has visited the idea but not really succeeded. Poor-brother RED product models have not hung around for long. One sellout or takeover and it is all done for. Take cineform for example. Legacy product support and re-registration of old locked up software versions disabled by equipment failures? Forget about it. Several softwares have gone the same way after predatory buyouts and shutdowns.
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robert Hart

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Re: Just Out of Warranty Unrepairable Cameras?

PostMon Nov 18, 2019 8:15 am

Steven Fitzgerald.

Maybe your local dealer is playing games or has used up an allowed ration of no-argument warranty replacement stock if that is in dealer's agreements to mitigate against loss/fraud. Maybe BM has used up all its replacement camera stock, a downside of efficient "just-in-time" stock management and tightly controlling the inevitable decline in value of unsold inventory.

Who knows? I certainly don't. I'm just a common-garden mug who looks through viewfinders and presses record buttons.

BM are unlikely to do another URSA turret goodwill gesture and replace obsolete for new or a lot of obsolete cameras will go into microwave ovens, be hung up in front of marine radars or cellphone towers for a few hours to brick them to win a cheap upgrade.
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