BMPCC or BMMCC

I'm looking to purchase a blackmagic camera (upgrading from a canon t5i) and I currently am leaning towards the bmpcc because of the inexpensive price tag. I already have some rokinon canon glass so I'm trying to find one with a metabones speedbooster.

That being said the bmmcc is also appealing to me, mostly because of the 60fps. But I was wondering is the image quality the same on the bmpcc and bmmcc? Would it be worth it to spend more on the bmmcc with all the extra accessories needed, like a monitor, remote, etc? Or should I stick with the bmpcc?

Hello,

First thing to know, the 60 fps is available only with Prores, and not in Raw.
Otherwise, I can tell that the BMMCC is absolutely a wonderful tool and even if I own a UMP, I won't sell my BMMCC.
The colors and look of the BMMCC have something really stunning and "cinematographic". I can't explain why, but I can't find the same look in a BMPCC4K nor the UMP.

4K resolution isn't necessary at all as a lot of equipment are still in 1080, and most people can't see any difference between HD and 4K (Try it in a mall, with a HD and a 4K television side by side...)
But, you have to consider that the bmmcc will cost you more mone than you plan to. It's a camera that needs to be rigged up (A cage, a handle and a screen, at the minimum). Actually, the less expensive and more interesting screen I found was the Ikan VL35.

On the great advantages, the form factor of the bmmcc let you, with imagination obtain shots that you can't without bigger cameras.

For the control of parameters, they are not easy ; so you'll have to find a one little remote v4. But they are now all sold out, and the manufacturer stopped to build them. So I believe the price will rise.

You can build very interesting rig parts of your own to suits your need with it. If you're a DIY fan, you'll be happy with it ! (For example, build or adapt larger batteries thant the LP-E6)

I can't tell you anything about the bmpcc as I don't own it, but all I can say is that the LP-E6 will be there a problem.

I have both cameras. The biggest thing you need to be aware of with both is that there are almost no SD cards available now that work in these cameras, so figuring out that problem should be the first item on your list otherwise you'll be wasting your money. There are several long threads on this forums about the problem; right now it looks like there is still one SanDisk SD card that works (only a 512 GB model, around US $200) and several people have reported success with some cards from Sony. You will need to read through the threads to learn more, especially this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91479

Once you know you can find (and afford!) media, then you need to decide which camera. I prefer the Micro Cinema Camera for several reasons (not the 60fps, which I rarely use):

1) full-size HDMI port. The original BMPCC has a micro HDMI port that is pretty fragile and if it breaks the whole camera is lost with it.

2) image quality: it's not exactly the same sensor as the BMPCC and has a faster readout time, and the images I get always seem a bit richer and deeper, more "painterly" than what I get with the BMPCC. Could just be my imagination but I hear it from others as well.

But you really do need a remote, and it's a shame that the One Little Remote is no longer being made. There are lots of others, some of which appear to still be available, but you'll quickly discover that trying to fiddle with those ridiculously small buttons in the field to set white balance, shutter angle, frame rate, etc. will drive you crazy. A remote solves that problem.

I use an Atomos Shinobi on my Micro, which is a lightweight monitor that can run for hours on one battery.

Check out Dmitry Shijan's battery plate, which I just bought and is excellent, along with his other accessories for the BMMCC: https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

I can't tell you anything about the bmpcc as I don't own it, but all I can say is that the LP-E6 will be there a problem.

Actually Tilta recently came out with a very nice, sturdy Sony NP battery plate that works perfectly on the original Pocket (you can mount it on a cage, see my photo below). With the bigger NP batteries you can power a Pocket for a few hours and it still keeps everything nice and compact. This is a better solution than the SmallRig plate for the same batteries.

I like keeping the original Pocket small and not rigged up too much (I often reserve it for use indoors, where I don't even need the monitor you see below; outdoors you need either a loupe or a monitor as the screen is almost impossible to see in sunlight).

tiltaplate.jpg (634.33 KiB) Viewed 5368 times

Those are different cameras. BMPCC is more like ready to shoot small camera. It is far from perfect but have all control buttons under your fingers. It is perfect for hidden shoots without taking a lot of attention. But those are the only pros of that camera. Overall in real life it is too small to hold, too bad screen to see something, micro HDMI port is very easy to damage, too weak body, low quality audio input, body always feels hot, rubber cover prone to unglue, too weak battery, too small DC connector, can't shoot 3:1 compressed DNG. In hot and wet climate areas sensor glass may became foggy inside on the edges due chemical reaction with some compound vapor.

BMMCC is more like camera module which needs a lot of additional stuff to became usable. Total cost will be higher than BMPCC and may be even higher than newer Pocket4K. But when you build your rig it became probably the most flexible camera system ever. And even fully rigged it is still very small and compact. With proper SD card BMMCC can do 60fps 3:1 compressed RAW. Less rolling shutter, full sized HDMI, active cooling, more rugged body. It also have high quality audio line input with dynamic range compared to professional audio recorders. Same as BMPCC, In hot and wet climate areas sensor glass may became foggy inside on the edges due chemical reaction with some compound vapor.
Both cameras need proper workflow, chroma noise reduction, cross-hatching fix, external IR filter and OLPF filter, otherwise image will look like crap.
So it is mostly depends of your budget and tech skills.

Here is thread about different BMMCC controllers options:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59874

And here is BMMCC/BMMSC Rigs Collection: https://bmmccrigs.tumblr.com

2) image quality: it's not exactly the same sensor as the BMPCC and has a faster readout time, and the images I get always seem a bit richer and deeper, more "painterly" than what I get with the BMPCC. Could just be my imagination but I hear it from others as well.

I have compared BMMCC with BMPCC. It's the same image and same sensor. However, the BMMCC had more noise or FPN in the shadow area. This is apparently a problem from the BMMCC I tested.

It is strange that BMMCC looks noisier for you. It use better cooling which should cause less noise in shadows and slightly more dynamic range. But as side effect FPN hidden under the deepest noise became visible. Larger Ursa cameras have FPN for same reason.
BMMCC firmware still don't have any hardware Black shading calibration to partially fix FPN.
But in real life you need really low light scene or very underexposed image with high amount of noise reduction and additional boosted iso level too see that FPN.

I done some extreme shadow recovery tests here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p414869

Look at post 1972 in this thread to see the BMPCC4K and the BMMCC together (about 6-6 ½ minutes in). The BMMCC colour does seem different than the BMPCC4K which we know is different than the BMPCC. Quite appealing.

Official "Look what I shot!" Thread
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_ ... are_type=t


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is strange that BMMCC looks noisier for you. I use better cooling which should cause less noise in shadows and slightly more dynamic range.

As I said, it's the same image quality because it's the same sensor. I also read in a blog about comparing where the two cameras were compared and the same was said, no difference in image quality.

BMD can't have improved the sensor either, because BMD are not the manufacturers of the sensor, but fairchild. So the claim that it is an improved sensor (as some claim) is not true.

I think that with the BMMCC I tested, something was wrong with the cooling or sensor.

But as side effect FPN hidden under the deepest noise became visible. Larger Ursa cameras have FPN for same reason.
BMMCC firmware still don't have any hardware Black shading calibration to partially fix FPN.

Too bad BMD doesn't care anymore. Pixel remapping is something that every camera needs.

As I said, it's the same image quality because it's the same sensor. I also read in a blog about comparing where the two cameras were compared and the same was said, no difference in image quality.

BMD can't have improved the sensor either, because BMD are not the manufacturers of the sensor, but fairchild. So the claim that it is an improved sensor (as some claim) is not true.

BMMCC use the same sensor as BMPCC, but it is revision 2 of same sensor. SOrt of updated version. It is written at Fairchild imaging data sheet.

in real life you need really low light scene or very underexposed image with high amount of noise reduction and additional boosted iso level too see that FPN.

I done some extreme shadow recovery tests here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p414869

Samples with blue sky are from BMPCC and it is clearly visible more noise but no any FPN lines under extreme ISO boost. Same in other DNG samples i keep from same early BMPCC review.

BMMCC use the same sensor as BMPCC, but it is revision 2 of same sensor.

As far as I know, there is no revision 2?

A better noise behaviour or less moiré, aliasing was not noticeable to me.

in real life you need really low light scene or very underexposed image with high amount of noise reduction and additional boosted iso level too see that FPN.

I done some extreme shadow recovery tests here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149#p414869

Samples with blue sky are from BMPCC and it is clearly visible more noise but no any FPN lines under extreme ISO boost. Same in other DNG samples i keep from same early BMPCC review.

What BMD has probably improved is the cooling of the BMPCC sensor. But few people here know that. BMD has also not said anything about why they replaced the heat sink. Here in the picture good to see: viewtopic.php?t=42701&p=280968#p280968

copper cooling is on the newer BMPCC models. Mine I bought in 2018 and it has copper. A BMPCC from 2014 (which I have seen open) has the Amec Thermasol.

something on the PCB has probably also been improved:

PCB.png (687.15 KiB) Viewed 5337 times

"216" is originally written by BMD. The question is, what have they improved? Or in other words, what is different about BMDPCB216C?

I followed sensor specs all the time and there where two revisions of sensor at fairchildimaging/BAE websites. They look the same and have the same specs, but new version just got some unknown minor improvements.
Active cooling on BMMCC was done to allow 60fps.
Both cameras use Thermoelectric cooling element (aka Peltier cooling) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling but BMMCC just have additional fan.
Currently fairchildimaging redesign sensors page and remove all info and version history about older sensor versions:
https://www.fairchildimaging.com/products/scmos-sensors

BMPCC use CIS1910 sensor: http://www.cmosccd.com/catalog/focal-pl ... os/cis1910
BMMCC use CIS1910A sensor: https://www.fairchildimaging.com/produc ... s/cis1910a

This is what the BMMCC sensor looks like:

BMMCC-Sensor.png (573.97 KiB) Viewed 5316 times

And this is exactly what the BMPCC sensor looks like:

BMPCC-Sensor.png (301.6 KiB) Viewed 5316 times

it doesn't look that way (CIS1910) :

CIS1910.png (72.15 KiB) Viewed 5314 times

see CIS1910A at the top left the dot. With CIS1910 it is on the right.

Besides copper cooler, other PCB revision, another indication that two different BMPCC exist?

All i know that cameras use Fairchild Imaging CIS1910 series sensor. There where few versions listed on Fairchild Imaging website at near same time when Pocket and Micro cameras where released. Sensors usually have few different sensor packaging/mounting designs and monochrome/color versions that image with dot could be taken from any of them or accidentally flipped during website design. There are images of same sensor from official Fairchild site with dot located at left side.

I had exactly the same picture in the comparison, not a single difference.

On this German page, the same result:
"CONCLUSION
Blackmagic has released the Micro Cinema Camera, an interesting little alternative to the Pocket Cinema Camera. We did not notice better noise, less moiré and less aliasing, but according to Blackmagic this should be a lot better."
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... era-teil-2

Only on the BMMCC I tested was noise, fpn in the shadow area. But this is probably due to the bad cooling of the BMMCC I tested. It also looked very used and the fan wasn't quiet, I found it loud, which was also the reason why I didn't buy it.

That test is interesting but not too perfect. Pictures taken in slightly different light conditions (see the sun at background) BMPCC expose is slightly shifted and shadows are more brightened. But even so if you compare similar light areas at pixel level you may see that noise is slightly smoother at BMMCC sample. Pocket have more chroma noise and also a lot of random bright pixel dots. But the difference is minor. BMMCC have more Fixed Pattern Noise for sure. Some people report that BMMCC FPN varies from camera to camera a lot.
FPN became slightly less visible when you apply Cross-Hatching fix (adjust image XY position to 0.5px) combined with 2x Super Scale.

I have left side dot in my BMPCC. But still quality of final image mainly depends upon script in my mind and skills (for decades) in documentary film photography.)

Take both cameras.) BMPCC a bit friendly to be ready to use at any situation. With compact pro cine S16 lens (out of 16mm cameras from 70th) it's close to rangefinder camera in documentary photography. BMMCC a bit different approach (mini RED). In any case both cameras are great.

I use battery pack on my belt with wire from old analog phone. Much better idea than hold battery on the camera.

(Second is my rangefinder from 1952 with Zeiss Biogon. I use it for many years. Half of my documentary silver prints on exhibitions are from this form factor camera.) BMPCC is close in dimensions and approach of use with compact lens.

After some research I found out that the BMPCC sensor is a CIS1910F. What the "A" or "F" mean at the end, I couldn't find out. I also don't think that BMMCC is a different sensor or that it should be even better. In any case, "A" or "F" does not mean a newer or improved revision. Just the thought that BMD is supposed to have said that they have improved the sensor at BMMCC compared to BMPCC cannot be true, because they are not the manufacturers of the Sensors. It would be nice if BMD would tell us what they have improved on newer BMPCC, with the copper heat pipe and other PCB version.