Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

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Randy Walters

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Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 08, 2019 9:52 pm

Grant said gimbal support is coming in a month or two (same firmware as anamorphic 4:3) for “the popular” gimbals.

Wonder which (I’ve been looking at the Moza Air 2) and exactly how the cameras will interface … and how quickly the gimbal manufacturers will incorporate support.

I know – not much to go on, but I’m starting the thread for those whose speculation is better informed (or just savvier) than mine. :)
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Nate Porter

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 12:29 am

I was also eyeing the moza air 2. Now I guess I'll wait a few more months to see who supports it.


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ricardo marty

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 1:00 am

Grant mentioned Support for the main gimble; I would think maye, Zhiyun,DJI,Moza and tilta.

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Phil999

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 2:44 am

really? That would be great.

I've been testing the Crane 3 Lab gimbal for about two months, and I found it quite important to have at least the Crane 3 record button working. Gimbal work often requires several takes to get the movement right, especially if one is not a professional gimbal or steadycam operator. And if the camera does not respond to the Crane 3 record button one has to leave the camera running for all takes. Which does not matter much while shooting, but later at the editing stage you lose a significant amount of time with long clips to find the best take. It's much more comfortable to have each take as separate, incrementally numbered clips. That has become very clear at the beginning of the tests.

So I was thinking about a remote record button device near the Crane 3 grip (if that even exists for the Pocket 4k), or to improvise something with the iPhone app as a workaround, but this would only make the gimbal rig more complicated and less intuitive. Using the record button on the camera is not ideal; you don't want to touch the camera dozens of times when doing gimbal shots, this only adds to the stress that is there anyway.

So, to save time and to make shooting with a gimbal most comfortable, it would be good if there will be some update in camera control for gimbals. That would make the rig I'm building perfect.
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javier forza

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 3:53 am

I really hope next Pocket 4k/6k firmware update bring autofocus tracking for gimbals or tripod.
These cameras are generally ready for one operator.

Thank you Grant! :D
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Kim Janson

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 4:50 am

But what does it mean?

The support for gimbals is already existing, ant least on LeVitreZer, we have implemented full camera control over BT already at spring.

What I would hope is thast there would be a HW connector for this purpose on the camera, preferably the plain old serial interface, it would reguire just 2 more pins on the power connector, to power and fully control the camera with the same cable.

But that HW connector is not there on the current cameras. Maybe it is over USB-C or audio input?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 5:00 am

javier forza wrote:I really hope next Pocket 4k/6k firmware update bring autofocus tracking for gimbals or tripod.
These cameras are generally ready for one operator.
Thank you Grant! :D


The Pocket cameras do not have continuous AF or AF Tracking capability. This appears to be a hardware limitation which is not fIXble with. firmware update.
You would need a camera like the Nikon Z6 to get useable AF tracking to use with a Gimbal. ;)
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 5:02 am

Indeed how is this connected to the camera, no constant timecode jam if 3.5mm and no usb ssd if usb c. BluetoothLE control is there already. Now if it is with cable then there can be grips that control with cable instead of BluetoothLE.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 6:37 am

Denny Smith wrote:
javier forza wrote:I really hope next Pocket 4k/6k firmware update bring autofocus tracking for gimbals or tripod.
These cameras are generally ready for one operator.
Thank you Grant! :D


The Pocket cameras do not have continuous AF or AF Tracking capability. This appears to be a hardware limitation which is not fIXble with. firmware update.
You would need a camera like the Nikon Z6 to get useable AF tracking to use with a Gimbal. ;)


Help me to think: I don't have skills to determine if the camera can track an object or not. But I believe in the actual capability and is a touch in the screen on an object/face and the camera make focus on it. After that, the camera can determine what is in focus or not, by the the peaking/lines on screen. The next upgrade Grant talk about a new function to determine the horizontal and inclination level. Considering these factors, it's not impossible a function where we touch/mark an object and when the peaking perceive more contrast or definition, continue follow the best contrast/focuss. Other method could be to map differents pixels focus like other brands have implemented. I know this basic method could not be competent like Sony sensors, or in scene with too much movements. But for an interview, and actor making two steps, a singer... will be enormous... :D
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Kim Janson

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 am

The problem is, from a normal sensor it is possible to get the information if it is in focus, but not the information to what direction the focus should be adjusted if it is out of focus. For that reason when the camera is focusing, the focus is hunting back and forward to find the focus, and that does not look good on video.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 7:24 am

Regarding the camera control, I really hope that in future BMD would add a HW serial connection to all of the cameras, and preferably to the power cable. Then it is just one cable needed to power and control the camera. That would be great.

The micro cameras are kind of like that, but please use proper connector and no need to put everything possible to it. It is enough to have serial (both Tx and Rx) and power. Then it is easy to make what ever kind of adapters to interface with the camera.

The protocol could be the same than already defined for SDI and BT, I just want the HW serial connection. BT works ok, but I would not want to rely on that on anything critical. For hobbyist gimbals it is ok, but not for professional work.

USB is complex compared to RS232 type serial communication. It is complex on the many layers of protocol and HW. I really would hope just the plain old trusted, well tested, simple and reliable serial communication.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 5:05 pm

Does anyone know more specific about what this update will add?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 5:47 pm

I forgot about this announcement so thanks for the reminder.

I'd just be happy to have start/stop recording control from my Moza Air 2. But, if you have a Lumix lens, I can totally see how you can also use the gimbal wheel to control focus without having to mount an iFocus attachment.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 7:18 pm

The Moza AirCross 2 features the BMPCC4K in its advertising. How that translates to reality is yet to be seen.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 7:24 pm

That is good news. BMD said something they would support the major gimbal vendors without being specific about the extent of course at that time.


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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 8:15 pm

You have to wonder. Is this enthusiasm coming from hope or experience?

Operating a gimbal is hard enough without pulling focus or performing zooms..... And look at the typical big budget steadicam shot. Wide angles and constant distance from the subject. I wonder why?
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Kim Janson

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Aug 28, 2019 8:19 pm

Well being a gimbal developer, it would be nice to understand at some point what they meant by what they said. The BT suopport to control the camera and lens has been existing for long time already and before the now anounced gimbal support.

There is many possiblities how gimbal and camera support could be improved, though it seems many would be happy for a simple rec button...
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Kristian Lam

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am

Quick answer is that we are adding support for USB PTP communication which these gimbals use.

They will be able to control the camera via USB which they currently already supported by other cameras.

Rec start stop, focus, Iris and other common settings should be accessible.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 12:29 am

That will be very good, cool... 8-)
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 3:06 am

Thanks, Kristian.


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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 9:03 am

Thanks Kristian, is there any schedule when this will be available?

The USB PTP is nice as supported also many other cameras. I hope though to see in future cameras also a professional solution, just simple and reliable connector and serial communication for full camera and lens control and parameter readings.

I guess the world is moving out of that, simple, reliable and working solutions.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 10:25 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Quick answer is that we are adding support for USB PTP communication which these gimbals use.

They will be able to control the camera via USB which they currently already supported by other cameras.

Rec start stop, focus, Iris and other common settings should be accessible.


Very cool, but how will tat affect shooters using SSDs ? Will a splitter be possible?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 10:46 am

Yes. I was thinking the same with the SSD. How could both be used at the same time.

The moza air cross sounds promising


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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 2:27 pm

Kim, I think the target for gimbal support is the same firmware 6.6 due in a month or so that brings so many other eagerly anticipated improvements to the BMPCC4K. No idea whatever else may be available in the future for that Pocket4K, but so grateful when 6. 6 is done.


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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Aug 29, 2019 2:48 pm

The Moza Air 2 gimbal comes with several cables to control other cameras so it will be a welcome update once the Pocket 4K brings the same functionality.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Aug 30, 2019 10:25 am

pnguyen720 wrote:The Moza Air 2 gimbal comes with several cables to control other cameras so it will be a welcome update once the Pocket 4K brings the same functionality.


According to the Moza webpage (https://www.gudsen.com/moza-aircross-2) the AirCross 2 has "3 outputs with a 7.8V power supply"; P4K needs 12V. But the rest seems good: the gimbal weight is 1Kg, itd payload 3.2Kg, has follow focus etc. etc.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 4:10 am

I'm not sure if it's posible use the audio mini plug - like timecode external accessories offered by Grant - or maybe bluetooth - like mobile app - and not only the USB C that could be used for the SSD.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Looks good except for the powering. I wonder if it could hold the pf4k with the new battery grip?

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 8:59 am

Power source seems the main problem to solve IMHO.

Powering the BMPCC 4K or 6K on a gimbal is an annoying problem, especially with short lasting batteries and the need to remove the cam from the gimbal and rebalance after every battery swap.

I was powering the 4K wit the Moza Air 2 through Alvin's cable but the 6K seems to draw too much so that the gimbal shuts down...

Relying on LPE6 batteries is a pain when operating a gimbal.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 10:06 am

Olivier Burri wrote:Power source seems the main problem to solve IMHO.

Powering the BMPCC 4K or 6K on a gimbal is an annoying problem, especially with short lasting batteries and the need to remove the cam from the gimbal and rebalance after every battery swap.

I was powering the 4K wit the Moza Air 2 through Alvin's cable but the 6K seems to draw too much so that the gimbal shuts down...

Relying on LPE6 batteries is a pain when operating a gimbal.


Agreed, I was thinking of using this battery plate

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 12:33 pm

It seems the only way at this time.

But where are U gonna attach it coz it's pretty heavy even with a slim batt?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 12:35 pm

Olivier Burri wrote:It seems the only way at this time.

But where are U gonna attach it coz it's pretty heavy even with a slim batt?


Underneath the camera, the Pocket 4K is not very tall so I think it will work, although Tilta has suggested attaching it to the bottom of the Ronin where the tripod attachment goes.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 3:39 pm

@ BM: Please add Pilotfly Maverick to your list of popular gimbals. Its just perfect with the tilt-arm on the left and the shorter roll arm.

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Olivier Burri wrote:Power source seems the main problem to solve IMHO.

Powering the BMPCC 4K or 6K on a gimbal is an annoying problem, especially with short lasting batteries and the need to remove the cam from the gimbal and rebalance after every battery swap.

I was powering the 4K wit the Moza Air 2 through Alvin's cable but the 6K seems to draw too much so that the gimbal shuts down...

Relying on LPE6 batteries is a pain when operating a gimbal.


Do you have the 16.8V version of the Moza Air 2? If you have the 12V, it'll burn it out.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 4:33 pm

To pnguyen720

I took great care to get the 16v version directly from Gudsen, as I have previously read about the different flavours on the blogs.

It works well with the Pocket 4K but with the 6K, gimbal turns off after 30 seconds. If I don't turn on the cam, then the gimbal works flawlessly.

Seems to point to a power draw problem...
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Olivier Burri wrote:To pnguyen720

I took great care to get the 16v version directly from Gudsen, as I have previously read about the different flavours on the blogs.

It works well with the Pocket 4K but with the 6K, gimbal turns off after 30 seconds. If I don't turn on the cam, then the gimbal works flawlessly.

Seems to point to a power draw problem...


Hmm.. that is definitely good to know.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Any news on the viability a USB C splitter so that USB remote and SSD can be used at the same time?

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Oct 30, 2019 3:12 am

Benjamin de Menil wrote:Any news on the viability a USB C splitter so that USB remote and SSD can be used at the same time?

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is that a thing? can you even do that with a type c?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 pm

so now with 6.6 firmware, we have usb PTP support...
has anyone tested it with any gimbal? preferrably with the moza air2 ? :)
further, if it really works, are there ways now to split USB into dual port for SSD and PTP?
thx
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostFri Nov 01, 2019 11:59 pm

Michael Kropfberger wrote:so now with 6.6 firmware, we have usb PTP support...
has anyone tested it with any gimbal? preferrably with the moza air2 ? :)
further, if it really works, are there ways now to split USB into dual port for SSD and PTP?
thx
Mike
Nobody can until some gimble supports it.


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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSun Nov 03, 2019 10:44 am

well, imho USB PTP is a well-defined standard, so probably it works out of the box...
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSun Nov 03, 2019 11:04 am

Michael Kropfberger wrote:well, imho USB PTP is a well-defined standard, so probably it works out of the box...

Nope, not with the Ronin S anyway.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSat Nov 23, 2019 7:17 am

Anyone know if the usb ptp support work with Ronin S now with their new firmware update?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Nov 25, 2019 11:36 pm

Jd2019 wrote:Anyone know if the usb ptp support work with Ronin S now with their new firmware update?


Some discussion about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103217
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostSun Dec 08, 2019 9:37 am

Hi, any news on supporting camera controls Crane 3 gimbal?
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostMon Dec 09, 2019 10:56 pm

Anatoly wrote:Hi, any news on supporting camera controls Crane 3 gimbal?


Please check with the respective gimbal manufacturers.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Dec 11, 2019 12:51 am

Anatoly wrote:Hi, any news on supporting camera controls Crane 3 gimbal?

write them. I did, but the reply was not very encouraging. There also appears to be a language barrier, which is a bit problematic for a company that ships and advertises internationally. As far as I can see, it's just about software and protocols. The hardware is here, as well as the P4k protocol.

In those feature request mails, it is important to point out that all supported cameras are stills photography cameras. While the real advantage of gimbals are actually dedicated cinema cameras.

Personally I don't quite get it why Zhiyun haven't updated the Crane 3 yet for the P4k. It is high time. Maybe next year?

Patience. They will deliver. And if not, their gimbals are still great right now. It's just odd to have more work at the editing stage as necessary. It could be so much easier if they just provided start/stop.
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:38 pm

Phil999 wrote:
Anatoly wrote:Hi, any news on supporting camera controls Crane 3 gimbal?

write them. I did, but the reply was not very encouraging. There also appears to be a language barrier, which is a bit problematic for a company that ships and advertises internationally. As far as I can see, it's just about software and protocols. The hardware is here, as well as the P4k protocol.

In those feature request mails, it is important to point out that all supported cameras are stills photography cameras. While the real advantage of gimbals are actually dedicated cinema cameras.

Personally I don't quite get it why Zhiyun haven't updated the Crane 3 yet for the P4k. It is high time. Maybe next year?

Patience. They will deliver. And if not, their gimbals are still great right now. It's just odd to have more work at the editing stage as necessary. It could be so much easier if they just provided start/stop.


The new zhiyun webill s supports the p4k, It's on there compatibility list you just need a small counterweight its even on their webill s release video. I just purchased one but haven't had time to try it with the p4k.

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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Dec 12, 2019 8:23 am

Not having auto tracking focus is ok for me, I do not use it but start/stop recording would be great.
Portkeys now have full BT control for Pocket so it should be possible, hopefully Gimbal developers will think of this possibility in the future.
Johannes
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Re: Pocket 4K/6K Gimbal Support Coming

PostThu Dec 19, 2019 12:12 am

@ricardo: Have you tested the Weebill-S with the BMPCC4K yet?

Does it need a counterweight, if you only use a Lumix 12-35 lens?

Can you control the electronic focus of the camera with the latest gimbal software?
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