Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

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Mattias Murhagen

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Aug 09, 2020 8:32 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Mattias Murhagen wrote:Bit depth is about SNR.


No, it's not.


Yes it is.

Rakesh Malik wrote:The SNR is electronic. It comes from the preamps, and has nothing to do with the bit depth of the recording;


Just because you have a SNR for electronic devices doesn't mean you don't have it with a converted signal.

Rakesh Malik wrote:the bit depth determines how many steps you have on your ladder, the noise floor is how much of the ladder you plunked in the water. The height of the ladder depends on its height, not on how many steps it has.


You can't both have an increased SNR of 144dB versus 96dB going from 16 to 24 bits AND not have that be about SNR. Choose one.

The quantization error is noise. More bits = the LSB error being further down, i.e. higher SNR.

Rakesh Malik wrote:The log vs linear thing is similar. In a "linear" ladder every step represents an incrementally higher value. In a logarithmic scale the steps of the ladder are the log of the value they're encoding. So to represent a step whose value is 1,000,000,000 you'd use (in a log base 10) 9 -- 9 zeroes, i.e. it's 1 * 10 raised to the 9th power. The log of that is 9. (It's very simple with evenly divisible numbers, chosen because they're easier to understand.)

In sound 6 dB represents twice the loudness. So the first six steps represent, say, numbers from 1-2. The next six represent 2-4. Then 4-8. Then 8-16.


See Dan's reply.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Aug 09, 2020 9:29 pm

Mattias Murhagen wrote:Just because you have a SNR for electronic devices doesn't mean you don't have it with a converted signal.


I didn't claim otherwise... but bit depth doesn't CHANGE the SNR from the signal.

You can't both have an increased SNR of 144dB versus 96dB going from 16 to 24 bits AND not have that be about SNR. Choose one.


You could, but generally the engineers strive to improve more than just the ADCs in new product generations, so it doesn't really end up happening. It's not really any different from how things work in the video world; more bits don't deliver more dynamic range in the absence of other improvements that reduce the noise in the signal as well.
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 10:46 pm

For the MixPre-6 II, I use the Sound Devices branded 32GB card that I think was the maximum available at the time of my purchase. I also use the Wise 128GB SDXC and that’s been reliable too.

I’ve also learned to use Reaper last year for post processing the recording of 16 tracks of audio for Mamma Mia!
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Aug 15, 2020 12:38 am

Sound effects specialist Alex Knickerbocker has uploaded an interesting video on what recorders and microphones he uses for professional work.

His main recorders (from 06:55) are a Sound Devices 722 and 788. The 702T, which I have, is the same recorder as the 722 but with timecode. All of these recorders are discontinued, but they are extremely reliable and, as Knickerbocker says, built like tanks.

He uses a variety of mikes, but the main ones are:

Neuman RSM 191 Mid-Side stereo mike
Sennheiser MKH 8020 omnis (pair)
Sennheiser MKH 8040 cardiods (pair)
Neuman KM 84 cardiods (pair)
Countryman B3 lavalieres
DPA 4061 lavalieres



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The Other Mark Williams

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Aug 22, 2020 9:03 pm

Yesterday I submitted a feature request to Sound Devices for the MixPre II series to add dual (simultaneous) 24-bit and 32-bit float recording. They got back to me right away to say they would log the feature request. If anyone else is interested in this, please consider letting them know. It's one of the few things I personally prefer about the ZOOM F6. Would be great to have feature parity in that area...
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Aug 25, 2020 10:32 am

Kim Janson wrote:"Can you explain that, because I think I'm missing something"

16 bit is about +-32 000 levels. If the AD converter would be true 24 bit or false 32 bit as we have now, it could store the data with 16 bit in logarithmic scale, really without loosing anything. On playback it would need to be converted back to linear.

This is especially true when looking the time domain also. These pictures are already plenty of samples considering any available sample rate and 20 kHz audio signal.

Screenshot 2020-08-08 at 12.39.12.jpg


But we have what we have. I just find it very disappointing sometimes how technology is evolving.


Mattias Murhagen wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:What puzzles me is that 24 bit can provide 144.49 dB dynamic range. is there any microphone that can provide more?

So why they did not just simply make good 24 bits.


If you read the thread you'll see the arguments for 32-bit float for a field recorder. Bottom line is that it's ease of use / avoiding clipping.

Kim Janson wrote:Further more if 150 dB would be stored in 16 bit as decibels, not linear as it is now, that would provide 0.005 decibel separation. That should be more than enough.


Can you explain that, because I think I'm missing something.


It's not simply a matter of more bits being more resolution but that the samples are stored in a fundamentally different way.

in linear pcm the bad blocky graphs are accurate to a degree..

Float has the same resolution as 24bit audio. (as it uses 24 bits of the 32bits for the 'value' and the remaining 8 bits for a mantissa) but a far greater range (1500db range)

A signed 32-bit integer variable has a maximum value of 231 − 1 = 2,147,483,647, whereas an IEEE 754 32-bit base-2 floating-point variable has a maximum value of (2 − 2−23) × 2127 ≈ 3.4028235 × 1038

it's a far far bigger dynamic range. and it allows what the sound is and how loud the sound is to be stored in the separate parts of the data.

Unfortunatly the forum won't let me post url's but there's a sound devices page that explains this quite well if you go to sound devices website url and add /32-bit-float-files-explained/
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Aug 25, 2020 3:03 pm

The Other Mark Williams wrote:Yesterday I submitted a feature request to Sound Devices for the MixPre II series to add dual (simultaneous) 24-bit and 32-bit float recording. They got back to me right away to say they would log the feature request. If anyone else is interested in this, please consider letting them know. It's one of the few things I personally prefer about the ZOOM F6. Would be great to have feature parity in that area...


I suspect that this is ultimately about a business decision on safety tracks as a feature.

My understanding is that one can’t set a gain level when recording 32-bit on a Zoom recorder. It’s one reason why I dismissed the idea of purchasing one. I have zero interest in owning a recorder that has a "feature" that prevents me from setting gain. Your post is a clue about why Zoom might have done this.

One can set 32-bit gain on a MixPre v.2. It would be quite odd for Sound Devices to offer 24-bit plus 32-bit recording but not dual 24-bit recording. The latter, and probably the former, because one can set 32-bit gain, would make dual recording at different gain levels possible.

Currently, that can only be done on Sound Devices’s high-end field recorders. That is a business decision, not the result of new technology. Dual recording at two different gain levels is also possible on field recorders that Sound Devices has discontinued.

I think that this is one reason why owners of Sound Devices’s high-end recorders are not clamoring for 32-bit, even though the hardware in the 800 series recorders would apparently support it.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 7:00 am

Rob, seems the wait for iZotope RX8 is almost over (they have a teaser video for 8 on their YouTube channel).
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 11:44 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Rob, seems the wait for iZotope RX8 is almost over (they have a teaser video for 8 on their YouTube channel).


Thanks. Right on time:


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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Sep 01, 2020 10:45 pm

For some reason this video is not yet listed on YouTube, but this is iZotope's video on what's new in RX8:


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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostTue Sep 01, 2020 11:54 pm

The URL for the video above was given out by a senior member of the RX Facebook Group.

This link to the RX8 page on iZotope's site was also given out: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/rx. ... _new_video

It looks to me like iZotope RX8 targets musicians/engineers and that there isn't a lot in it for film and video sound editors.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Sep 02, 2020 12:00 am

iZotope's RX 8 page is now live. Here's the pricing:


Screenshot 2020-09-01 at 19.58.06.jpg
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Sep 02, 2020 12:24 am

There's some interesting stuff going on with upgrade prices. My upgrade price from RX 6 Advanced to RX 8 Advanced, until October 14, is US$300. That's actually attractive. It would give me both multichannel and 32-bit processing, plus the the module improvements, although they're mostly incremental, in RX7 and RX8.

Multichannel and 32-bit are recent needs that I've been handling outside RX. Staying within RX would save time.

I'll be downloading the 10 day trial and paying attention to the RX8 videos that iZotope releases over the next few days :)
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostWed Sep 02, 2020 9:44 pm

Americans and Canadians who are figuring on an RX8 upgrade price of US$299 plus tax should check out this JRR Shop thread on VI-Control: https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... st-4632832 *

I just upgraded via JRR (RX6 Advanced to RX8 Advanced). This is legit and the saving is real. I saved about US$75 over purchasing directly from iZotope. The transaction went fine, and authorisation through iZotope's Product Portal was immediate.

I went to JRR via the links in the first post. This may have been important. In the cart, the purchase is described as a "group buy". I saw the actual price after I put the upgrade in the cart. There was no sales tax.

There should be meaningful savings on all RX8 variations.

* VI-Control is the main Internet forum on virtual instruments, which are important in scoring for films and games.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 12:38 am

RX8 seems to be a lot zippier than RX6.

The first screen capture is of a Sound Devices MixPre v.2 32-bit "clipped" file that with RX6 I had to deal with in another app. See earlier posts on working with this file in Reaper.

The second screen capture is a stereo file with two mikes spaced AB and a third mike in the centre. RX6 will only handle two channels.

I think that RX7 Advanced owners have a difficult decision about whether to upgrade. For RX6 Advanced owners, the decision is easier. Note: as far as I know, the features in the screen shots are not available in RX7 Standard. On a quick look, they may also be unavailable in RX8 Standard.



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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Sep 03, 2020 8:40 pm

Mike Thornton knows RX cold. Unfortunately, he hasn't done a tutorial series since RX5, but this overview of RX8 is a good introduction to the new features:



Thornton's review on Production Expert covers what RX8 does, and doesn't, do for film/video sound editors: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... and-review


Weslake Pro has posted a good video on using RX8 to address problems in recordings of the human voice. The video deals with run of the mill issues, nothing complicated, and I like the stress on using good judgment. It sounds like Westlake will be doing more of these.

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Sep 05, 2020 3:54 pm

robedge wrote:Americans and Canadians who are figuring on an RX8 upgrade price of US$299 plus tax should check out this JRR Shop thread on VI-Control: https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... st-4632832 *


Thanks for sharing!!

:)

robedge wrote:I think that RX7 Advanced owners have a difficult decision about whether to upgrade.


Hmmm... I don't know, I think it's fairly straight forward actually. I went from v4 to v6 to v7 because they all had specific tools included that I wanted, and then to Post Production Suite 4 because of the reverbs.

The way it looks to me now for post is that it's really only a couple of things that seem pretty usable. One would Spectral Recover to recover lost high frequency content, and the other the loudness tool. But honestly I think that for a fair amount of users most of the new stuff seems more geared toward either music or enhancing the standard version. I see myself using the Recover tool probably, but the only question is how frequently and if it's worth the money. It's not like RX isn't a great tool, but paying $250 for that function might be more than necessary.

Personally I'll look into whether or not there are any alternatives that are either better (Zynaptic may very well be, demos sound good at least) or cheaper...
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Sep 05, 2020 4:13 pm

I am a bit torn if I should update my RX7 advanced to 8 now. I had expected that they would improve Voice Isolate a lot, but it seems that didn't happen. And they stopped supporting Win 7 officially. I am not gonna update my productive systems any time soon risking Win 10's update worries. And I still do have a lot of expensive hardware raid controller cards (including spare cards) which did not get any Win 10 driver love.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Sep 05, 2020 5:40 pm

I think that iZotope has hit a technological brick wall on RX development. RX7 was released on September 13, 2018. They've had two years to work on RX8. When it comes to substance, there isn't a lot to show for it. In the absence of significant new features, or big improvements, it looks to me like their strategy is to try to broaden the market (musicians, podcasters, etc.).

It made sense for me to go from RX6 Advanced to RX8 Advanced, but that's because of a development in recording hardware and a change in how many tracks I'm using, not because of new features in RX8. I could just as easily use RX7. So far, I'm not seeing a compelling case for sound editors to go from RX7 to RX8 unless one has one or two quite niche needs.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Sep 05, 2020 6:33 pm

Mattias Murhagen wrote:The way it looks to me now for post is that it's really only a couple of things that seem pretty usable. One would Spectral Recover to recover lost high frequency content...


I just watched a video in which Spectral Recovery was applied to a recording of a smartphone call. As you know, Spectral Recovery doesn't actually recover anything. It extrapolates from, for example, the frequency range of a phone discussion. In the example I watched, the phone voice was capped at about 8,000Hz and Spectral Recovery extrapolated to add frequencies above 8,000Hz.

I preferred the original recording to the one that was "fixed" :) I don't know why phone calls have to be fixed in the first place. It's not like they're ever going to sound like they were recorded on a sound stage.

Maybe it makes sense for some Zoom calls.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 9:15 pm

Westlake Pro is currently streaming a session with Milly Latrou (La La Land) about sound editing and RX 8. It should also be available after the stream. She uses Pro Tools and sometimes Final Cut Pro X:

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSun Nov 08, 2020 9:50 pm

Walkthrough (Curtis Judd) of Tentacle Sync’s Track E recorder. Substance starts at 03:40. The Track E is discussed until 25:38.

The patent issue that prevents monitoring the sound in the U.S. version of the recorder is important enough that I would not purchase the U.S. version. I would only buy this recorder elsewhere, e.g. Canada or Europe.

When Judd does his review, I hope he tries a mike in addition to the one that comes with the recorder. For some, this would require a patch cable to the TRS input. To me, the sound, at least with the included mike, is OK but not great. It is not equal to the sound from a Lectrosonics PDR, a pocket recorder that he mentions a couple of times and that I have. Judd says that he thinks that the sound is better than what a RØDE Wireless Go delivers.

B&H currently has the Track E available for preorder, US$350, but it is no doubt selling the U.S. version: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... audio.html


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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 4:07 pm

Niche question here. Does anyone know if the HDMI from the original BMPCC (HD) will trigger the record on the MixPre II? I assume this will work with a splitter?
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 4:20 pm

Is there a setting on the BMPCC to send the record signal? Which MixPre do you have or are interested in purchasing?

When I used the MixPre-6 II to record sound for a two-camera shoot, I didn’t have either camera connected as I think it’s standard procedure to “Roll Sound... Sound Rolling” before you begin recording video on the camera “Roll Camera... Camera Rolling” again to ensure you have audio and video recording prior to the call for “Action.” But that’s on a set.

I understand you just want the Camera Video Record to trigger the external Audio Record. The answer will be in the manuals for the camera and the recorder. If you need me to check later today, I can do that in a few hours. I don’t have the BMPCC so I’d need you to verify the camera will send the Trigger Record signal over HDMI. I can tell you what the MixPre-6 II will do.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 5:40 pm

rick.lang wrote:Is there a setting on the BMPCC to send the record signal? Which MixPre do you have or are interested in purchasing?

When I used the MixPre-6 II to record sound for a two-camera shoot, I didn’t have either camera connected as I think it’s standard procedure to “Roll Sound... Sound Rolling” before you begin recording video on the camera “Roll Camera... Camera Rolling” again to ensure you have audio and video recording prior to the call for “Action.” But that’s on a set.

I understand you just want the Camera Video Record to trigger the external Audio Record. The answer will be in the manuals for the camera and the recorder. If you need me to check later today, I can do that in a few hours. I don’t have the BMPCC so I’d need you to verify the camera will send the Trigger Record signal over HDMI. I can tell you what the MixPre-6 II will do.


There isn't any setting related to sending a record signal which probably answers my question. It's not in the manual either.

I'm interested in the MixPre 6 II for documentary work (rarely time for "Action!"). If someone has both, it would be nice to have confirmation, but I likely need a newer camera.
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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-6 II (second generation)

PostSat Apr 03, 2021 5:46 pm

If you decide on the economical BMPCC4K, it can send an appropriate signal over HDMI.
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