Blackmagic Forum

It's possible in the next firmware BMPCC 4k reduce noise over ISO 3200 on Camera?
I am using too much Davinci Resolve Studio Noise Reduction:
- Decrease quality
- Increase power processing
- I want to work with better F in order to get better focus

Thank you.

Less noise? Why not add more light?

It's a client problem. I make shows. Theaters.
Conferences. Lot of works where I can't add lights.

Use a Resolve to reduce the noise, not likely FW can make any improvements in camera without compromising the IQ.
Cheers

Thank you Denny

I see that a good option is to sacrifice 1 stop of DR over an ISO 3200, and that way have less noise, because many cameras in the market can reach good quality in isos over 3200, of course, without the BM color science.

Maybe only in Pro Res and let Braw intact. Pro Res is enough in non artistic works.

Honest question; how would firmware decrease noise without using the same (or likely worse) noise reduction algorithms you think are detrimental to image quality? You talk about sacrificing DR for noise performance, but I've never heard this to be a possibility (the relationship between noise and dynamic range seems to be one way to me: better noise performance will lead to more dynamic range in the shadows, but I don't see how worse dynamic range will lead to better noise performance).

The noise is a hardware limitation of cranking up the sensor so much that in the end it will introduce noise no matter what.

Maybe you should downgrade your camera so the ISO 3200 mode is not available anymore. Will Solve your noise problem as you are not over gaining the sensor. Ooh wait you just not use iso3200 is also an option.

What others say here, Add more light. It is not a low light camera. It is not a Sony Alpha that can run ISO 32.000

javier forza wrote:It's a client problem. I make shows. Theaters.
Conferences. Lot of works where I can't add lights.

I am sorry - what?
I have been shooting all those things for more than a decade. With very inferior cameras and light has never been a problem with those venues, except when they were made by amateurs.
The PCC4k does very well at ISO 3200.

So show us some examples of your problematic footage and provide information about lens and camera settings. Then we can see what's going on.

Javier, if you have the option to shoot BRAW, please consider it. Then you just pick an ISO value you prefer, preferably no more than 3200, so you can ‘see’ the scene on the camera monitor, and then in post select the ISO you feel it should be. Consider adding mild temporal noise reduction but it may not be needed. Personally I’ll shoot 3200 to have things visible, but drop exposure in post a stop or more. Others love to shoot ISO 1250. Find what works best and consider leaving ProRes behind.

Now I think you can shoot BRAW Extended Video if you don’t want to give a first light quick grade to your footage. I prefer to shoot BRAW and ProRes Film, but that’s because I want to grade in Resolve.

One more thing, if you use False Colour or are used to shifting the histogram to the right, it’s likely not necessary. You can safely shoot darker than you may think and recover what you need in post with BRAW.

BRAW does include some noise reduction I believe. Many shooters using BMD cameras believe “less is more,” less noise reduction in camera can give a more faithful image to tweak in post.

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rick.lang wrote:Javier, if you have the option to shoot BRAW, please consider it. Then you just pick an ISO value you prefer, preferably no more than 3200, so you can ‘see’ the scene on the camera monitor, and then in post select the ISO you feel it should be. Consider adding mild temporal noise reduction but it may not be needed. Personally I’ll shoot 3200 to have things visible, but drop exposure in post a stop or more. Others love to shoot ISO 1250. Find what works best and consider leaving ProRes behind.

Now I think you can shoot BRAW Extended Video if you don’t want to give a first light quick grade to your footage. I prefer to shoot BRAW and ProRes Film, but that’s because I want to grade in Resolve.

One more thing, if you use False Colour or are used to shifting the histogram to the right, it’s likely not necessary. You can safely shoot darker than you may think and recover what you need in post with BRAW.

BRAW does include some noise reduction I believe. Many shooters using BMD cameras believe “less is more,” less noise reduction in camera can give a more faithful image to tweak in post.

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Thank you Rick! Very smart suggestion. This is a very good advice. I will try shoot at 3200 and drop exposure in post. I don't like the extended video, because the main reason I got this camera was the color science to make some artist works meanwhile I can use the same camera to work.

I understand when everybody response "add light". Its' true when you can. Thank you anyways.

When the most important part of your frame is in the shadows, you might consider adding light, but not necessary when the principal subject is well lit or even just adequately lit. Dark can be very compelling and work with what you are trying to say. As you mention, adding light can help but only to a point. Images are defined as much by shadow as by light. Perhaps more so.

Now I do everything I can though to avoid that purple hue in False Colour; blue is welcome, but purple only belongs where we truly don’t want to see anything. When you have blue over areas that are not important to your story, you know you can drop exposure in post and have a compelling image. If you light the scene at higher levels than needed, you can end up with too little definition of your subjects. That might be what you want in a light romance, but passion can benefit from something darker. Your choice, no rules!


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The challenge with theater is usually not that there isn't enough light, but that the CONTRAST range is too high. It's very bright where the performers are standing when they are LIT, and this forces the exposure down, a kind of ETTR mode that then tends to force the rest of the scene that isn't lit in to deeper shadows / under exposure, where there might be actors that AREN'T lit.

If it truly is a requirement for better low light performance, then may I ask what lenses you're using ? By any chance slow F4 zooms ? I make this presumption but perhaps you're already on primes ? That's another way to improve the low light performance quickly, switch to faster primes.

JB

So true that the principal actors are often brightly lit and the supporting actors are not. Having a camera that supports a wide dynamic range like the URSA Mini 4.6K sensor copes fairly well with the shadows and highlights. I’m fortunate that the theatre where I shoot lights more evenly, but they have this insane concept of how musical performances should be lit. Very difficult lighting levels and bright colored LEDs.

The Pocket cameras will have a greater challenge with theatrical lighting due to having one or two stops less dynamic range.

I’ll be using the BMPCC4K for a production in October. I’ll shoot the full dress rehearsal with BRAW Q0 on the BMPCC4K at ISO 1250/3200 and quickly decide if I’ll use it for the premiere the next night or if I stay with CinemaDNG or ProRes 444 on the URSA Mini 4.6K and ISO 800.


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John Brawley wrote:The challenge with theater is usually not that there isn't enough light, but that the CONTRAST range is too high. It's very bright where the performers are standing when they are LIT, and this forces the exposure down, a kind of ETTR mode that then tends to force the rest of the scene that isn't lit in to deeper shadows / under exposure, where there might be actors that AREN'T lit.

If it truly is a requirement for better low light performance, then may I ask what lenses you're using ? By any chance slow F4 zooms ? I make this presumption but perhaps you're already on primes ? That's another way to improve the low light performance quickly, switch to faster primes.

JB

Thank you John!
You describe one of my problems better than me.
I have primes FD F2,8, and Rokinon T1.5. Recently I sold a horrible Panasonic 12-60 F 3,5-5,6. I read for this kind of jobs the Sigma 18 35 Art is good, but I need more zoom distance. Like a 24 - 105 in Full Frame.

Sometimes I have to go up with ISO in order to get better focus, not in one point. I know my limit is 3200, and when I go up the shadows or even, very low key - this is very common - start to make noise. Something that I left to do in editing was crop the image because reveals more noise.

When I edit I see noise - not too much but enough - in the shadows, or in the low key scenes and I start to apply temporal noise reduction. More contrast. Etc.

Sometimes I work as a simple cameraman with other little cameras. Not very big works. Theatres, shows, conferences. A couple of documentaries. I do this job for about ten years. Actually These cameras are Sony A7S Ii, Canon 5D Mark III, Gh5S and others in that level and I perceive I can work really good at ISO 6400 or more, F4 or 5,6. That's why I wrote this possible petition - sorry for my English, I speak Italian and Spanish.

I love the BMPCC 4K. I really enjoy my personal projects and the possibility of 12 bits - or 16 as in Davinci appear. When I can add light, like a corporate work, an interview, an store, and office the camera is totally amazing. But in circumstances when the light are changing constantly, or its poor, other cameras work fine for a little more. I want to stay in this BlackMagic ecosystem. I like it. It's convenient for me. But a little less noise in high ISO could be perfect.

Thanks everybody por the patience.

Civediamo dopo! See you!

Javier, I understand where you are coming from with this.
You have to know that the other cameras you have mentioned are using heavy in-camera noise reduction - with all its side effects. This is not what BMD cameras do. And I prefer it that way, because I can yield much better results in post if the source footage is only slightly compressed like with braw or ProRes.

What I do when recording theater or musicals, I talk to the light technician beforehand and ask them if they can provide a slightly modified lighting for the day of recording where they raise the average levels of light and lower the brightest parts. Normally that is enough to counter any dynamic range problems.

Of course you can't come an hour before the show begins asking the light technician to change his programming - that won't happen. But my experience is that if you talk to them early enough and ask for their help, most of them are willing to do to so.

Two question:
Do you shoot braw or prores?
4K to delivery 4K, 4K to fhd? Fhd to fhd
The answer could solve many troubles
I shooted many things at 5000 iso with mild noise, to me 3200 is quite absent noise to delivery, obviously depend of quantity of light.

4K raw to fhd during scaling etc give you the best
4K raw allow you to shoot wider iso to see and do Easely focus, then lower iso in post add exposure and gain (this strategy give you less noise and fpn) and if you delivery in 4K you can mild denoise only shadow.




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Thank you @Robert Niessner. I am totally agree with your suggestion and I used to stay in touch with the places when I have to do the job. Sometimes works. It's true the other cameras have a lot of noise reduction and... expensive sensors. And those cameras could compensate work with poor lenses. BMPCC 4k need good glasses. I prefer the BM color science over those photo cameras, so far.

@carlomacchiavello Grazie mile!
I shoot Braw at the moment. 4K to FHD.
When you explain "then lower iso in post add exposure and gain (this strategy give you less noise and fpn) and if you delivery in 4K you can mild denoise only shadow" you mean the exposure CAMERA RAW tab in Davinci? Or Primary Wheels? I though both are different way to do the same.
After I understood that you isolate the shadows and apply Noise reduction, really?

Thank you again!

PS: I will try this weekend shoot pro res. I read recently that the noise reduction in camera is more aggressive than Braw.