Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

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Csaba Nagy

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Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Sep 07, 2019 7:33 pm

Introducing ToF Continuous Autofocus using Tilta Nucleus System!



This demonstration shows ToF ( time of flight ) autofocus on:
-BMPCC4K
-Sigma 20mm 1.8 Lens
-Nucleus-Nano

The way the system works is a time of flight sensor is attached to the top of the camera, measuring a point of distance centered in the frame. With the distance measurement the lens’s focus is set precisely to that distance in realtime.

The prototype has promising applications, mainly in that it is completely camera/platform independent. Will work on any camera system, because it doesn’t need to interface with any camera control protocols to focus the lens. Instead using physical motor control with the Nucleus-Nano ( or Nucleus-M )

Also means, you can autofocus manual/cine lenses!

Lens’s will need to be calibrated on this system, meaning you will have to manually map the distance marks of your lens into the system. This can vary from lens to lens and based on your motor’s calibration on that lens. Lens profiles can be implemented to make this process less tedious.

Some other quirks and drawbacks:
-ToF can have trouble measuring distance on some surfaces
-Single point of measure in the frame, and rather narrow angle of view for the measurement.

Please leave your feedback in this strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/18606536
This will help me gauge demand and influence production of these units.

Still early stages, still need to design physical hardware and improve the software so further optimizations and improvements are to be made. So stay tuned!
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Sep 07, 2019 8:36 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:Introducing ToF Continuous Autofocus using Tilta Nucleus System!



This demonstration shows ToF ( time of flight ) autofocus on:
-BMPCC4K
-Sigma 20mm 1.8 Lens
-Nucleus-Nano

The way the system works is a time of flight sensor is attached to the top of the camera, measuring a point of distance centered in the frame. With the distance measurement the lens’s focus is set precisely to that distance in realtime.

The prototype has promising applications, mainly in that it is completely camera/platform independent. Will work on any camera system, because it doesn’t need to interface with any camera control protocols to focus the lens. Instead using physical motor control with the Nucleus-Nano ( or Nucleus-M )

Also means, you can autofocus manual/cine lenses!

Lens’s will need to be calibrated on this system, meaning you will have to manually map the distance marks of your lens into the system. This can vary from lens to lens and based on your motor’s calibration on that lens. Lens profiles can be implemented to make this process less tedious.

Some other quirks and drawbacks:
-ToF can have trouble measuring distance on some surfaces
-Single point of measure in the frame, and rather narrow angle of view for the measurement.

Please leave your feedback in this strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/18606536
This will help me gauge demand and influence production of these units.

Still early stages, still need to design physical hardware and improve the software so further optimizations and improvements are to be made. So stay tuned!



When do they expect to deliver the final version? Any guesstimate? The price looks reasonable.

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Sep 07, 2019 8:46 pm

Yes please, amazing :o
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Sep 07, 2019 9:34 pm

How will it work with Manual focusing wheel? Is it possible some seamless usage of manual control during autofocusing? Or is it will work only as hard switch? only manual/only autofocus
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Sep 07, 2019 10:03 pm

Will this only work with the tilta focus? What about the moza. I havent purchased one yet but the moza seems the prime contender and also waiting for the new firmware for the p4k that will have some compatibility with some gimbals.

Thanks much

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Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 12:21 am

Csaba, when you calibrate the lens, does the camera operator need to precisely measure distances with a tape since the witness marks may be wrong on many lenses? Or can you point the Tome of Flight at various objects and it calculates the distance when focus is good for the various objects?

If you have several lenses, can it remember each lens?

When you power off, does it have non-volatile memory to remember the calibration(s)?


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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:52 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:How will it work with Manual focusing wheel? Is it possible some seamless usage of manual control during autofocusing? Or is it will work only as hard switch? only manual/only autofocus


The possibility could be there to make it this hybrid style available, but current version I'm working on will be either or.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:53 am

ricardo marty wrote:Will this only work with the tilta focus? What about the moza. I havent purchased one yet but the moza seems the prime contender and also waiting for the new firmware for the p4k that will have some compatibility with some gimbals.

Thanks much

Ricardo Marty


Tilta will be the system this works from for the time being. I may approach others, this will not be priority.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:07 am

rick.lang wrote:Csaba, when you calibrate the lens, does the camera operator need to precisely measure distances with a tape since the witness marks may be wrong on many lenses? Or can you point the Tome of Flight at various objects and it calculates the distance when focus is good for the various objects?

If you have several lenses, can it remember each lens?

When you power off, does it have non-volatile memory to remember the calibration(s)?


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Great question Rick! So in terms of calibration, this will fall completely into the users's hands. Which can either be a good or bad thing, based on how well their calibration points align with the lens's actual focus scale.

The more calibration points the more accurate, otherwise the controller will be doing guess work and may not be come out as accurate.

So to answer your question, do users need to make measurements with tape? or will lens witness marks be enough?

The calibration I did in the demo was done with the witness marks on my lens I think it works ok, but this will vary on the accepted level of error users have with their setups.

One of things I forgot to mention and will be something posted later in the formal spec is the sensor can measure from 0.3m to 12m in 1cm levels of accuracy. Thus may not work well with all lenses.


The system will be able to save multiple lens profiles and yes the memory will be persistent.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 7:35 am

Csaba, you are the BTM_Pix , the inventor of Time of Flight Autofocus for BMPCC4K? Congratulation for yours work! Could give us a price for this revolutionary continuous autofocus system? Will be able to work with UMP G2, BMPCC 6K, anoher brand camera (Canon 5D mark III) or just with BMPCC 4K?
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am

Michael Moore wrote:Csaba, you are the BTM_Pix , the inventor of Time of Flight Autofocus for BMPCC4K? Congratulation for yours work! Could give us a price for this revolutionary continuous autofocus system? Will be able to work with UMP G2, BMPCC 6K, anoher brand camera (Canon 5D mark III) or just with BMPCC 4K?


No, BTM_Pix is also referred to as CDA-TEK he is someone else.

To be fair, nothing very revolutionary here. It’s a real-time distance measure device with focus control. Preston Cinema systems light ranger 2 does this type of focus much better and then some with lots of other features.

The revolution might be the trickle down of the technology and the price.

This solution is platform independent, Blackmagic is my camera of choice for years now, but this would work on practically any camera. It’s using a Tilta focus motor to focus the lens, not Bluetooth or over the lenses built in autofocus motor. Also means it can essentially add autofocus to manual/cine lenses.

Please refer to the straw poll link in the first post for pricing.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:50 am

:idea: Just the idea for firmware - different ease-ins/outs fade types. Sort of smoother/harder selection of ease-ins/outs for autofocus. This may provide less robot-like look for autofocus
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:55 am

Is it any rule where the controller sensor itself should be located? Should it be placed exact in line with image sensor?
UPD. Seems your earlier post about calibration already answered my question.

How large is the size? Is it possible to fit inside 15mm rod tube?
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 1:17 pm

Csaba great system you got going there! If you have a newsletter or something to describe to let me know - would love to keep up with the system and I don't always check the forums.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:21 pm

Csaba, thanks for the reply. My follow focus is PD Movie so perhaps I can’t use this technology. Or maybe I should get a Tilta Nano follow focus motor!


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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:50 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:Will this only work with the tilta focus? What about the moza. I havent purchased one yet but the moza seems the prime contender and also waiting for the new firmware for the p4k that will have some compatibility with some gimbals.

Thanks much

Ricardo Marty


Tilta will be the system this works from for the time being. I may approach others, this will not be priority.




Which version of the nano focus? Would this be the tilta nano? The one that mounts to the p4k-6k Cage?
I understand that the tilta nano focus can be mounted on most gimbls. The one shown in the link?

https://images.app.goo.gl/TyiWBQJe6aCufUcM6


Thank you

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 7:12 pm

ricardo marty wrote:Which version of the nano focus? Would this be the tilta nano? The one that mounts to the p4k-6k Cage?
I understand that the tilta nano focus can be mounted on most gimbls. The one shown in the link?

https://images.app.goo.gl/TyiWBQJe6aCufUcM6


Thank you

Ricardo Marty


Yes, the Tilta Nucleus Nano and it will also be compatible with the Tilta Nucleus-M.

How you mount it and attach to your lens, is up to you. The example you linked is one way.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 7:35 pm

This is very interesting. Especially if the footprint isn't too big
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 10:34 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:Which version of the nano focus? Would this be the tilta nano? The one that mounts to the p4k-6k Cage?
I understand that the tilta nano focus can be mounted on most gimbls. The one shown in the link?

https://images.app.goo.gl/TyiWBQJe6aCufUcM6


Thank you

Ricardo Marty


Yes, the Tilta Nucleus Nano and it will also be compatible with the Tilta Nucleus-M.

How you mount it and attach to your lens, is up to you. The example you linked is one way.



Good to know. Did you know that there is another guy working on the same but not by using a wireless focus like you? He states that it will control the lens directly. It's on another thread in the forum.

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 10:39 pm

ricardo marty wrote:Good to know. Did you know that there is another guy working on the same but not by using a wireless focus like you? He states that it will control the lens directly. It's on another thread in the forum.

Ricardo Marty


Yes, I'm aware. This came about as extension of what they demonstrated.

I'm focusing on this version, because again it's platform independent. Don't need Blackmagic Camera Control protocol to control the lens, so can work on virtually any camera system.

I can also make this work via direct drive of the lens using Blackmagic Camera Control Protocol, but at the moment this will not be my priority.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 10:45 pm

Which means only Csaba’s approach works for true manual lenses, not relying on the camera controlling a lens focus movement.


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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:43 pm

rick.lang wrote:Which means only Csaba’s approach works for true manual lenses, not relying on the camera controlling a lens focus movement.


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rick.lang wrote:Which means only Csaba’s approach works for true manual lenses, not relying on the camera controlling a lens focus movement.


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No its, not the camera that controls he designed a pod that works directly with the lens but it's powered by the camera.

https://www.eoshd.com/2019/07/exclusive ... pe-add-on/

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:50 pm

ricardo marty wrote:No its, not the camera that controls he designed a pod that works directly with the lens but it's powered by the camera.

https://www.eoshd.com/2019/07/exclusive ... pe-add-on/

Ricardo Marty


I've been developing with the same hardware he used in that demo for some time now. The LiDAR is connected to a controller in that grey remote unit ( ESP-32 ) he does the calculations there and tells the camera over Bluetooth to move the lens. There is no directly working with lens any other way in this context.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostMon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 am

This is exactly what I need. Please make it happen! :)
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostMon Sep 09, 2019 4:13 pm

this is dope.
please make it happen
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostMon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
ricardo marty wrote:No its, not the camera that controls he designed a pod that works directly with the lens but it's powered by the camera.

https://www.eoshd.com/2019/07/exclusive ... pe-add-on/

Ricardo Marty


I've been developing with the same hardware he used in that demo for some time now. The LiDAR is connected to a controller in that grey remote unit ( ESP-32 ) he does the calculations there and tells the camera over Bluetooth to move the lens. There is no directly working with lens any other way in this context.


Why don't you do it to operate both ways? I think there is a need for both systems.

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostTue Sep 10, 2019 7:07 am

Sounds fabulous!
Cannot wait to be able to get it.
Any news when it will become available?


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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 5:08 pm

How’s it coming along Csaba Nagy?
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 7:56 pm

MScDre wrote:How’s it coming along Csaba Nagy?

Had to take a bit of a break with this one, been busy with other things.

One of the major challenges with this system is the need for accurate/precise lens calibration.

What I mean by that, is user needs to custom calibrate their lenses focus distance to the current rotation of the focus barrel. Witness marks aren't always accurate and this is especially true for zoom lenses.

So I'm at the drawing board on this one, because otherwise the system works. But it's not a very useful system if it falls apart at the calibration step.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Oct 19, 2019 1:20 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:
MScDre wrote:How’s it coming along Csaba Nagy?

Had to take a bit of a break with this one, been busy with other things.

One of the major challenges with this system is the need for accurate/precise lens calibration.

What I mean by that, is user needs to custom calibrate their lenses focus distance to the current rotation of the focus barrel. Witness marks aren't always accurate and this is especially true for zoom lenses.

So I'm at the drawing board on this one, because otherwise the system works. But it's not a very useful system if it falls apart at the calibration step.

I think the target audience for this product would understand and accept needing to calibrate each lens, so long as the resultant “profile” can be stored and quickly recalled. I assume you could calibrate a relatively small number of distances, and interpolate between them?
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Oct 20, 2019 9:56 pm

I agree with this, I would expect to have to perform some level of calibration for each lens, in fact I would welcome the ability to be able to do so, then store the "profile" so I can recall it for the specific lens.

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 1:17 am

Agreed. I'd be happy to have to calibrate my lenses, as long as I can store the profile :)
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostTue Nov 26, 2019 7:12 am

How did you gain control of the Nucleus Nano motor? Did you get the wireless protocol from Tilta? I'd love to use this motor for other purposes entirely. The Nano motor is incredible when given more than 5V, and the 15mm-rod-based packaging is convenient for various robotics hacks and projects.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostThu Nov 28, 2019 2:44 pm

when will this be available?

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Dec 13, 2019 10:46 am

Hi,
great stuff.
I would subscribe to some kind of a newsletter, where I can be informed about updates and possible purchase options. Is there one?
Thanks and all the best,
Jan
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Jan 03, 2020 7:24 pm

where will this is available for purchase and when will it be on sale.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Jan 29, 2020 4:18 am

Eclipse wrote:where will this is available for purchase and when will it be on sale.


Is this project still ongoing??

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Mar 13, 2020 5:33 am



Update on this project coming soon... New design with a live distance readout.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSun Mar 15, 2020 11:53 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:https://vimeo.com/397357658

Update on this project coming soon... New design with a live distance readout.


Any estimate on when it might be ready?


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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Mar 25, 2020 2:31 am

Csaba Nagy wrote:https://vimeo.com/397357658

Update on this project coming soon... New design with a live distance readout.


Very much looking forward to this...

Alex.
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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Mar 25, 2020 3:31 pm

Sorry, I've skipped forward. Just remember that it will be offset from the true lens centre, and it will not always be perfect in focus, as the different angle of view csn see the centre differently, as different levels of objects in the focus zone may make different things shift in or out of the centre of the TOF's view, so a gap would be there in the TOF, or part yhere, but the lens sees the area next to the gap. If you use a big region of focus, it should get rid of that, but you then you have to deal with the microfocus of which micro distance you want. The closer you are, or the more this can offset, the more it can effect. So, on mobile phones,l it is less of an issue as the offset of the TOF sensor is physically a lot closer, like image features in real life. We might be talking about less than 1% of the time even. Some of these sensors have extreme dynamic range too, so it is a pity that sensor is not in camera. .I also have a way to centre it.

Now, some mobile sensors are using multiphase pixels, and Sony now has four phase pixels for each binned 4k pixel, and it could go to 9 phase pixels for even better. So 8k to 24k can give you 4k-8k delivery with every pixel focusable in big binned pixels for nice focus. So, maybe that will turn up in a future product. Hopefully this is not what the guy from panavision was talking about when he talked about 32k cameras, because that would still tie us to delivery resolution mosaic colour filters, which aren't the best.
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Csaba Nagy

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Apr 01, 2020 3:04 am

Bit of an update on the state of the project.

I’ve developed a new design that is a central hub with connections to the distance sensor and the nucleus motor. Initially started with simple TRRS 3.5mm connectors but didn’t like them for this intended application, LEMO is industry standard/tested but is more expensive and can be difficult to source. So for this prototype I’ve settled for Mini-XLR which I think is a nice balance between the two.

Lens mapping process is now standardized in the firmware, no longer just a hard-coded calibration with one of the lenses I used for testing. However I’m still in the process of developing the lens mapping interface where users will perform this calibration, I’m leaning to do this via a WiFi webapp that comes built-in to the unit to make this simple. Lens calibrations can be stored on a micro-sd card and then backed up or moved onto other units if desired.

Undecided whether I should add a dedicated power input ( DC, LEMO, Mini-XLR ) instead of the current USB-C power input, would like to hear your opinions about this! Is it imperative to power the nucleus motor from this system? Or do you prefer to power the motor on its own, your own way?

As such not quite at a final prototype yet, but it’s coming along. No timelines on this, there are far more unknowns that need to be answered before this can potentially land on the market. Not to mention the state of the world as it stands now, but either way I will continue to update here as things develop.

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Csaba Nagy

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Apr 01, 2020 3:44 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Just remember that it will be offset from the true lens centre, and it will not always be perfect in focus, as the different angle of view csn see the centre differently, as different levels of objects in the focus zone may make different things shift in or out of the centre of the TOF's view, so a gap would be there in the TOF, or part yhere, but the lens sees the area next to the gap. If you use a big region of focus, it should get rid of that, but you then you have to deal with the microfocus of which micro distance you want. The closer you are, or the more this can offset, the more it can effect.


This absolutely something to take into account, to put this effect into more visual terms I recorded a similar test in a near pitch black environment to see the infrared beam that is being used to measure distance ( its not visible to the human eye )

Finally something useful to come out of the lack of IR filtration... :lol:

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Mark Foster

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am

any news?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostThu Jul 16, 2020 1:39 pm

.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostSat Jul 18, 2020 8:40 am

Csaba I really adore what you are doing here - looks great! Any updates?

A few things - you asked about power for the Nucleus. If the box provides the full 12v that the motor needs to work properly that would be great. At 5v it's woefully underpowered.

The manual calibration is no problem for me at all. Something you would do with a remote follow focus before any shoot anyway. Also I was wondering if you offer speed adjustments to the focus pulls? In your demo the system looks super snappy, but for long pulls it feels a little too fast for me to be organic.

Also is the system possible to be overriden by an AC? Like would be awesome to have it permanently on the camera for the distance readout (like a cinetape) and whenever it is having issues to have the AC take over, for example if you want to focus on something on the side of the frame or have something intentionally out of focus.
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Michal Urbanczyk

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostMon Aug 17, 2020 10:32 pm

It seems that CDA-TEK is rolling out their ToF autofocus for Pocket cameras.
"Priced at €199, pre-orders begin next month."
https://twitter.com/cda_tek/status/1295369504244092928

Still prefer Csaba's solution tho!
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Paul Jonathan

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostThu Aug 20, 2020 9:56 pm

Yeah just saw the CDA-Tek demo as well, but i feel the focus pulls are way to harsh and mechanical. Csaba's solution looks much more promising. Hoping to hear about a production update soon! I believe he is in the middle of fulfilling the preorders of the BLE4k at the moment, so hopefully once those are out, there will be more new on ToF autofocus.
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sicc333

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostFri Dec 25, 2020 2:05 pm

Hello, any updates on this project?
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chris.white

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Re: Time of Flight Autofocus is here!

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 12:13 am

Any progress on this Csaba?

The CDA-Tek product build seems like garbage. A lot of people that have received theirs are complaining of rattling sounds as if the internals are loose, and there seem to be some reliability issues. Would love to see your version in production.
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