Blackmagic Forum

Curious if there is any plan to update BRAW (1.6?) to include support for Final Cut Pro X? Sorry if it was mentioned in the keynote; I haven't had time to watch yet due to travel.

It wasn't mentioned; I think Apple would also need to release a new version of Final Cut for this to happen. It could be in the works: the FCPX Creative Summit is scheduled for November so it could be announced then, and there's also speculation that Apple may release a new version of Final Cut when the new Mac Pro becomes available sometime in the next few months.

On the one hand you could argue that Apple has no motivation to bring BRAW to FCPX since Apple's pushing its own Prores RAW, but on the other hand if they don't it'll just mean more people will abandon Final Cut for Resolve and Premiere.

Naaah....
They had proresRaw, and from what I read about plugin they not can add codec reading but only post process reading video, from when they moved from old QuickTime library to av foundation library the ability to add codec to Os or to fcpx unfortunately is near to Zero
From what they wrote on web site I think it’s hard to add it directly, but I hope to be wrong.


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Well, they must be working on some pretty major under-the-hood changes in FCPX, because currently you can't even adjust ISO and exposure in Prores RAW files in FCPX...which kind of limits the advantages of shooting RAW in the first place. It's possible that those changes could open the way for BRAW as well but we'll just have to see.

A Braw plugin for FCPX would be huge for me-- we've been cutting on Final Cut Pro X for years and I can't imagine cutting on anything else. We have a couple clients who insist on working with bloated and bug-ridden Premiere and it's always a painful process to collaborate but, for the most part, our workflow involves proxies in DaVinci, edits in FCPX, then back to DaVinci for finishing. It's not a difficult process but it would simplify everything to be able to go straight to FCPX from the start given how instrumental its organizational power is to our work.

I realize there's a lot of complexity in bringing this to fruition given Apple's dedication to the success of ProRes Raw (not to mention the current patent disputes over compressed raw between Apple and RED), but FCP continues to be adopted, particularly outside the US, at impressive rates and given the proliferation of BMD cameras in the market, it doesn't make sense for Apple to exclude Braw support-- at least I hope they recognize that.

It's also interesting to note Apple's latest inclusion into the Academy Software Foundation as a premier member, so perhaps there is much to look forward to this fall.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 17745.html

Fabián Aguirre wrote:but FCP continues to be adopted, particularly outside the US.

I don't see this happening in Europe and Asia, what I do see is a rapid adoptation of Davinci Resolve as an NLE.

I don't really see BlackMagic investing their responses into a smaller hobby NLE and I don't see Apple doing it when they want people to use ProRes RAW.

I'm extremely doubtful this will happen.

alexthevideoeditor wrote:I don't really see BlackMagic investing their responses into a smaller hobby NLE and I don't see Apple doing it when they want people to use ProRes RAW.

I'm extremely doubtful this will happen.

A hobby NLE? Oh, boy. And here I was looking forward to a serious discussion. Tell that to Thomas Grove Carter at Trim Editing, London.



Or to Academy Award-winning Yuval Orr.

But that’s beside the point. All of these NLEs have advantages and disadvantages. I, and many others, happen to think FCP is the future of editing (just look at Adobe scrambling to emulate so many of FCP’s features into “Rush”), and FCP is not going anywhere any time soon. On the other hand, even if we assumed you’re right (you’re not) and FCP were simply a “hobby NLE”, it would make even more sense for Apple to support Braw given the amount of “hobbyists” the BMPCC4K has attracted.

Agree with Fabian, I’ve seen a pro editor that learnt directly on FCP X with no legacy hang ups, the speed at which he carved hours of footage into an amazing 3min video within 1hr was art in motion.

I really hope that native support for BRAW within FCPX will happen.

I've tried to edit in Resolve, and it is amazing, but I'm so used to FCPX these days.

Fingers crossed it happens

And that’s before the newer Mac Pro with the FCP X accelerator. Only caution for Apple is that they don’t want to be seen as acting like a monopoly. Adopting BRAW might be an important defense against that potential accusation. Let the customer decide which codecs to use in the NLE of their choice.


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Thanks for responding everyone! Hopefully it will come to FCPX. Canon’s Cinema Raw codec can be edited in fcpx after installing a plugin from canon (albeit the controls are embarrassing), so hopefully BMD/Apple can make it happen as well! I’ve been editing inResolve exclusively for the past 8 months or so, but I still find editing in final cut a great experience and would love the flexibility/option to edit BRaw natively in FCPX. Personally, I think it would be a good move for Blackmagic (just like it was for them in the 1.5 update with avid/premier) because it opens up their incredible codec to more shooters and editors using FCPX. Plus with the new video assist recording BRaw, users of compatible cameras who may not be editing in resolve will still be able to record and edit BRaw natively in FCPX—I’m sure the same argument was made when developing the 1.5 update for premier/avid support.

Anyways, Blackmagic folks, I’m sure many folks would be stoked to see support for FCPX in the future!

I would love Blackmagic Design create a plug-in for FCP X. RED has done it. I have a lot invested in FCP X with various plug-ins I've purchased, and I've been using it from the beginning. I actually started on the original FCP back in 2000.

Adam, you’ve seen a huge revolution in FCP since then! I started in FCP Express. But I find the goal of integration of so many features in DaVinci Resolve irresistible without the need to round trip. But I’m sure I only scratch the surface of these products.


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Fabián Aguirre wrote:I, and many others, happen to think FCP is the future of editing

Sorry, just getting 'back into things' after about a decade off... but the "future is Apple" statement is kinda ironic for someone, like myself, that has used Apple since '93.

Not saying its not hot - it and Adobe are, funnily enough, on every youtubers tongues.
Consider this perspective though:

Remember when turnkey systems were the thing?
Top line Avid was easily $100k - not mention what a Smoke/Flame/Inferno station would be.
(Nor the amount of $$$ you could get being an editor/compositor with those real-time solutions)

And then - a miracle happened... in stepped Steve J. with Final Cut Pro!
* Final Cut Pro
* DVD Studio Pro (Quickly eliminated its $$$ competition)
(Made motion menus before it was supported in this software - working with DLT was a pain though)
*** Most importantly - SHAKE (industry standard compositor for LotRs baby! Oh, yeah - for an affordable price when Apple bought it...)
... but they killed it. (Sold, for a short period, a license for the code - my guess is this is how Nuke got started, as they popped up not long after - and for a more hefty sum than Shake)

Essentially, this was the end of something grand that Apple was doing.
(Motion was to kill After Effects eventually, Color, etc. Heck, many were speculating their own Photoshop)

But no - Apple ditched the Pro momentum... to the extent that at some point they made Final Cut more like iMovie (and it was horrid) the last I heard people hated it, switched to Premiere (which, by the way, only has life because of Apples brave move in the industry... before Adobe remade it, it was a joke - you literally cold not edit a project on it... just small, non-broadcast, clips)

Either a young generation has arisen, who is unaware of the true power Apple used to wield in this area, or they have straightened their stuff out. (If the latter, where is our Shake replacement, etc?)

Also - I can point to the times when you could actually modify your systems.
Take Pismo, the first Apple laptop able to edit DV footage via firewire!
You could pop out the DVD bay and pop in an extra storage drive.
This machine used a full size GPU!

Now, you cant even replace a battery? What happened to the trashcan pro (that weird little beast aimed a pros that you couldnt do anything with?) lol! Seems they changed their minds - but to what extent.

Either way... Apple the future - man, they had it nailed.
Dumped pro for consumer (trimming away fat, I guess) and then just became the king of mediocrity?

And Premiere with their monthly fees...
Autodesk with monthly fees for Smoke (was going to pick that up before they switched, as it had a decent price)

As of now, my reentrance into the world of video/cinema - Blackmagic looks pretty darn good.
I have enjoyed Resolve, and am not missing Final Cut nor Premiere nor Avid.
(Though some interesting glitches I intend to ask about here on the forums)

The cameras seem intriguing, want to get one when supply allows. (backordered everywhere for the 4k)

So... as of now, BM has a chance with Resolve, as 16 is getting some fair reviews on youtube.
As far as in the industry... it is what it is. (Do they still rely on Flame/Inferno? Is it fusion? I have no idea) But companies tend to stay with what they always had. (Ive only seen one big shift, and that was when Apple shook up the industry)

Little trip down memory lane! Have fun with whatever you edit on!

Dhaylen wrote:

Fabián Aguirre wrote:I, and many others, happen to think FCP is the future of editing

Sorry, just getting 'back into things' after about a decade off... but the "future is Apple" statement is kinda ironic for someone, like myself, that has used Apple since '93.

He didn't say "the future is Apple," but rather that FCPX is the future of editing. I interpret that to mean that the innovations introduced in Final Cut Pro X are the future of editing, not that everyone's going to shift to Final Cut in the future. Clearly that's not likely to happen, but it's also just as clear that other NLEs are adopting some of those innovations because Final Cut has demonstrated their effectiveness and efficiency.

When the Mac first came out many people hated it (including me; in the mid 1980s the organization I worked for switched from a mainframe computer with dummy terminals to desktop Macs). Nothing worked the way we were used to, we took productivity hits while trying to figure out how to do our work with these new machines, but eventually things settled down and we became far more efficient than we had been before...mainly because the machine was responsible for remembering commands and we could liberate our brains from those functions.

At that point you could have said "the Mac is the future of computers" and you would have been right because Microsoft then copied the essence of the Mac user interface (which Apple itself had copied to some extent from Xerox PARC) and applied it to DOS to create Windows.

It's similar with Final Cut Pro X; the hostility with which it was greeted at the outset is well documented, as is the fact that Apple followed up with many fixes and improvements, adding key missing features, etc.

I don't think "Final Cut is the future of editing" implies that Final Cut will gain a lot more market share in the coming years; it's more that other NLEs are incorporating many of the best features of Final Cut's approach into their workflows. However, other NLEs won't be able to incorporate all of FCPX's best features without radical changes to their underlying approach (e.g., layers-and-lanes vs. tracks), which probably won't happen anytime soon if ever. Lots of editors still prefer traditional track-based NLEs, especially if that's what they learned on. At the same time development on FCPX is far from standing still, so at least for now FCPX remains a very compelling package for editors who take the time to learn how to use it. See https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2019 ... cut-pro-x/ for example.

Brad Hurley wrote:but rather that FCPX is the future of editing. I interpret that to mean that the innovations introduced in Final Cut Pro X are the future of editing, not that everyone's going to shift to Final Cut in the future.

Makes perfect sense!

He didn't say "the future is Apple," but rather that FCPX is the future of editing. I interpret that to mean that the innovations introduced in Final Cut Pro X are the future of editing

Indeed, Brad. I'm not sure I could have said it better than you, though I should have been more precise.

The paradigm shift in FCPX has already had an impact in the industry. Apple failed miserably in the launch of FCPX-- a lesson Adobe paid attention to when they released Adobe Rush by announcing a separate, parallel app to test the waters, while "borrowing" a lot elements from FCP, including connected clips under a seemingly trackless timeline, high resolution waveforms, and even the UX, which looks suspiciously similar.

Still, the power of FCP is in its default non-linear editing capabilities. There is a strong case to be made that the previous paradigm of editing (FCP 7, Premiere Pro, Resolve) is linear by default, with non-linear capabilities when using secondary keys. FCP's power also lies in its vastly intuitive organizational features like smart keyword collections, custom roles, etc. Not to mention its overall stability.

While not as sexy as watching the cut of the Audi commercial above, Perez-Miranda's explanation of the paradigm differences in the video below are compelling (note, in particular, the example starting at minute 8:26):



Just like I couldn't imagine cutting in the old paradigm, I also can't imagine doing a proper grade inside FCPX, so I am rooting for Resolve to succeed as an NLE and overtake Premiere Pro. Anything is going to be better than that bloated, aging piece of software. Still, I am hoping that Resolve will innovate as aggressively as Apple did when rethinking editing and to be as stable as FCP is today.

After Apple abandoned their wonderful Aperture app which nothing in the price range has matched, I feel less loyal to Mac apps. I still will use Aperture after Carolina installs as I can boot a Mohave system when I need Aperture.


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rick.lang wrote:After Apple abandoned their wonderful Aperture app which nothing in the price range has matched, I feel less loyal to Mac apps. I still will use Aperture after Carolina installs as I can boot a Mohave system when I need Aperture.


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Agreed, that was what my long winded post was about! lol!
(i.e. Abandoning Shake, Aperture - heck, at the time, most Apple peeps thought they would come out with their own Photoshop - they were steam rolling it in the pro-line... then dropped the ball.)

waiting this!

All because they could only sell a million, not a billion?


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rick.lang wrote:I still will use Aperture after Carolina installs as I can boot a Mohave system when I need Aperture.

I loved (and still use) Aperture, Rick, even though I ended up investing in Capture One. Again, I can't seem to get used to other apps, and Lightroom is, well, Adobe's. I sold my DSLR many years ago and use a Hasselblad 500 c/m for personal use, so simple contrast/saturation adjustments are all I need. But man, Apple got the cataloguing part right in Aperture (just like they did with FCPX). Even cloning/repair is way more intuitive than Capture One.

With Catalina, I'll finally say goodbye to that beloved app.

Fabián Aguirre wrote:
I loved (and still use) Aperture, Rick, even though I ended up investing in Capture One...

With Catalina, I'll finally say goodbye to that beloved app.

It only takes a small external boot drive and Aperture can live on cataloging and correcting photos on external drives as long as you need it. I agree the catalogue system is so good and flexible and astonishing yet mighty Apple couldn’t find the means to port it to their core architecture. I’ve looked at alternatives too. It was an outlier that was popular and better than anything else for its limited scope, but cast adrift finally by Catalina.

Nothing to be sad about though, heck all we really need every year are more emojis and annual updates on the obscene number of stock options granted to some good old boys... and occasionally to some girls!


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Yes Rick, it’s catalog system was an extension of Apple’s original Shoe Box photo program, remember it?
Cheers

No, I didn’t move to Apple (from Windows) until January 2004. I’m such a neophyte. I think one of the problems with Apple was that it wasn’t just about the intersection of Liberal Arts and Technology as Steve Jobs like to say. In time it became the intersection of the Internet of Things (borrowing that phrase) and Wall Street.


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Bummer was hoping that 10.4.7 would have BRAW as one of the features but just downloaded it and nope

MScDre wrote:Bummer was hoping that 10.4.7 would have BRAW as one of the features but just downloaded it and nope

I think 10.4.7 was a "let's optimize FCPX for the new Mac Pro and Catalina" release. There haven't been many new features added yet this year, which suggests that they've had their heads down working on a more major update.

Good (for me game changer) is if they develop a raw converter to embedded raw data from x (red,arri, Blackmagic Design) to proresraw.
Since 15 years ago David Newman did with cineform raw with these raw format, today cineform raw is dead, but the idea could be reloaded to proresraw
I like a lot braw codec, for my work is perfect, but I now prores is solid standard from 2006 on video and I would like to see more .


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waiting in november with 10.5

narimangafurov wrote:waiting in november with 10.5

You think 10.5 will be out in November?

MScDre wrote:

narimangafurov wrote:waiting in november with 10.5

You think 10.5 will be out in November?

there was a lot of talk that this is possible
I hope there will be a surprise on fcpxcreativesummit 7-9 november

rick.lang wrote: Let the customer decide which codecs to use in the NLE of their choice.

+1 Both sides are posturing to promote their respective codecs (why does BMPCC 6K only shoot braw and not prores at resolutions above 4K?): FCP X needs to add support for BRAW, and Resolve needs to support ProresRaw, that way people can choose the workflow that best suits them. Frustrating that it seems that both BM and Apple do not comprehend this and hoping that this changes in the future.

Re: FCP X. I hate the interface, but it is rock solid and much faster/stable than Premiere. I hate the iMovie interface (that's what it is, don't try to convince me otherwise). I only use it for 4K multicam edits just because Premiere is damn near useless for this (in my experience).

+1 Both sides are posturing to promote their respective codecs (why does BMPCC 6K only shoot braw and not prores at resolutions above 4K?)

It's not really BMD's style to artificially limit choice like this. A reasonable guess is that the processing requirements for 6k Prores were too high. BRAW likely remands less horsepower to encode.

I would not be surprised if future versions of Resolve support Prores RAW, but I am more skeptical that future versions of FCPX will support BRAW.

joe12south wrote:It's not really BMD's style to artificially limit choice like this. A reasonable guess is that the processing requirements for 6k Prores were too high. BRAW likely remands less horsepower to encode.

It's more likely the data rate. On a short I was shooting last summer we experimented with using raw + simultaneous proxies to facilitate post while giving us the option for a more finessed grade later. The proxies were 4K ProRes 422, the raw was 8K Redcode at 12:1. They ended up being almost exactly the same size.

Since Braw like Redcode is far more efficient than ProRes, well...

I would not be surprised if future versions of Resolve support Prores RAW, but I am more skeptical that future versions of FCPX will support BRAW.

As far as I know the ball's in apple's court right now, and apple is notorious for being almost as anti-customer as Black Magic is pro-customer...

As far as I can tell with FCPX most raw codecs use plugins developed by the camera manufacturer. I think it would ultimately be up to Blackmagic whether FCPX would support BRAW.

Adding my voice to the request for BRAW supoprt in FCPX. Been editing in Resolve exclusively since BRAW came out, but I have to say that I find FCPX more intuitive and especially quicker for certain kinds of editing - especially documentary. I would love the ability to rough up and edit in FCPX, then flip it over to Resolve for finishing and grade.

Ian Henderson wrote:Adding my voice to the request for BRAW supoprt in FCPX. Been editing in Resolve exclusively since BRAW came out, but I have to say that I find FCPX more intuitive and especially quicker for certain kinds of editing - especially documentary. I would love the ability to rough up and edit in FCPX, then flip it over to Resolve for finishing and grade.

Totally agree with you.
Round-tripping is very easy though. You just have to create proxies via Resolve's Media Management window.
When importing the edit's XML in Resolve, don't import the clips and Resolve will automatically relink to original BRAWS.

Philippe Metro wrote:

Ian Henderson wrote:Adding my voice to the request for BRAW supoprt in FCPX. Been editing in Resolve exclusively since BRAW came out, but I have to say that I find FCPX more intuitive and especially quicker for certain kinds of editing - especially documentary. I would love the ability to rough up and edit in FCPX, then flip it over to Resolve for finishing and grade.

Totally agree with you.
Round-tripping is very easy though. You just have to create proxies via Resolve's Media Management window.
When importing the edit's XML in Resolve, don't import the clips and Resolve will automatically relink to original BRAWS.

Yeah - no way I'm running a proxy workflow though - kind of obviates the entire value of BRAW, which is a brilliant editing codec.

I'm still holding out that when the Mac Pro becomes order-able in a few weeks Apple will release FCPX 10.5 in which BM will have collaborated BRAW and Apple added Afterburner support for it.

The reason I think it may happen is that the new XDR display has been touted as being capable of doing colour accurate work without an output box thanks to Catalina but seems like they are holding back some info about how the NLEs will deal with that.

In the long term surely it's not possible that BRAW stays excluded from FCPX. I mean Blackmagic products (eGPU) are sold on the Apple website, and there's tight integration between the companies. I'm sure Apple wants to sell FCPX to users of Blackmagic cameras. To be honest I'd still use Resolve for most things - it's a wonderful programme - but when you've got used to working in FCPX it's just such a fast editing paradigm for narrative/doc content where the elastic timeline is such a great asset.

Fabián Aguirre wrote:A hobby NLE? Tell that to Thomas Grove Carter at Trim Editing, London.

Great video!

Reminds me of many of the things that I love about FCPX, even if I'm more or less moved to Resolve for the last two years or so.

I feel FCPX is stronger on the editing side that Resolve, but Resolve isn't bad enough that I need to leave the app. A lot has to do with muscle memory and what we are used to.

Been away / busy with other things and come back to my BMPCC4K - and see FCPX still isn't working with BRAW files - shame

Any news / updates on this, do we know?

Richard Wait wrote:
Any news / updates on this, do we know?

No news. It seems very likely that Apple is working on a major update to FCPX and probably also to Logic (given the relative silence over the past year on the FCPX and Logic fronts), and the release of a solution (either native to FCPX or via a BMD-authored plugin) could be timed for that update. That's pure speculation of course. I've heard some rumors that the new release will be in March but that's also speculation. The only slim evidence pointing to that is the fact that Filmconvert has announced that its new Nitrate plugin for FCPX will be released in March 2020 (considerably later than the release of its plugins for Resolve and Premiere), which could be due to complexities associated with making the plugin work in FCPX, the smaller market for FCPX, or potentially the desire to release it at the same time as a new version of FCPX.

If you would like to see Blackmagic RAW in FCPX please request it from Apple. They control access to developing codec support via plugins.

Thank you captain.
I’ll do that.

CaptainHook wrote:If you would like to see Blackmagic RAW in FCPX please request it from Apple. They control access to developing codec support via plugins.

Thanks for clarifying this, Hook. It was always unclear to me which party was holding up the process, or whether it was mutual. It's good to hear BMD is interested in making Braw as ubiquitous as possible, even if it means a select few of us don't migrate to Resolve for editing.

I don't know if they actually take our input seriously, but here's the link to request Braw support from Apple:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Native support of Braw in FCPX would allow me to grade in Resolve without having to create proxies, which would be a huge time saver for complex edits.

Cheers

CaptainHook wrote:If you would like to see Blackmagic RAW in FCPX please request it from Apple. They control access to developing codec support via plugins.

Perhaps you can compromise with Apple. Perhaps they aren't going to consider supporting Blackmagic RAW if you have no intention of supporting ProRes RAW.

Over a year ago, I went to a Final Cut Pro users group meeting out in LA. There was an Apple rep there. I asked about support for BRAW. He answered my question with a question. "Will Blackmagic support ProRes RAW?" I shrugged my shoulders, and he shrugged his shoulders.

I don’t think either party normally will pre-announce support of codecs so hard to conclude what’s cooking.

Adam Silver wrote:

CaptainHook wrote:If you would like to see Blackmagic RAW in FCPX please request it from Apple. They control access to developing codec support via plugins.

Perhaps you can compromise with Apple. Perhaps they aren't going to consider supporting Blackmagic RAW if you have no intention of supporting ProRes RAW.

Over a year ago, I went to a Final Cut Pro users group meeting out in LA. There was an Apple rep there. I asked about support for BRAW. He answered my question with a question. "Will Blackmagic support ProRes RAW?" I shrugged my shoulders, and he shrugged his shoulders.

Like ever to these kind of comment I answer :
You can implement a free fee codec, then some other could think to pay to implement an expansive codec that at today no one use in production or near to... be cause is not possible to develop correctly color. The same fcpx read but not develop correctly prores raw, no real iso elaboration and more, just nuke and 1 another app allow you to develop it.
At today braw is a standard for 4 cameras and near to be standard for two other different branded cameras. At today prores raw sometimes is used but most of people that I know with also inspire2 and x7s use simple prores due the high cost of prores raw license and one customer that want to pay more to have a master that cannot use.




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