Media surrounded by black borders?

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John Whiteway

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Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:24 pm

Media surrounded by black borders.

I ran a 720X480 SDi file through Topaz VideoAI and output a 1920x1080 HDp file. When I load that file into Resolve to colour grade, the file appears on the Media Page and in the Timeline and Viewer surrounded by black borders. The Viewer is set at “fit” and when that is done, as you can see in the attachment, it says 66%. As an experiment I took a small portion of the file/project and exported it at Vimeo settings and what was produced is also a smaller image with black bars around it. What could be happening? As the screen grab below shows, the media file is 1920x1080. When I imported that file into Resolve I got the usual message asking me if I wanted to set the project to match this media. I selected that.

The main worrying point, I suppose, is that in the icon on the Media page those borders are already evident. How could Resolve import a file that the Metadata page recognizes as 1920x1080 yet have that media surounded by borders?

(For what it's worth, earlier I created a separate project and imported the original SDi 720x480 file into it. In that project the media properly fills the 16:9 frame.)

Can anyone help me understand what's going on and how I might fix this problem?

Thanks.

(Seems I can only add one attachment to this message, so the two more that I mention will follow separately.)

John
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Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 11.42.16 AM.png
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:32 pm

Here hopefully is the second screen grab of the Viewer showing borders and "66%"
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from Viewer.jpg
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:35 pm

Third screen grab showing metadata for the clip.

John
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Screen Shott 2023-12-01 at 11.52.42 AM.png
Screen Shott 2023-12-01 at 11.52.42 AM.png (54.27 KiB) Viewed 984 times
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Mads Johansen

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:36 pm

Well, 720/480 is a 1.5 ratio, while 1920/1080 is a 1.78 ratio, that difference is explained by the black borders.
The way I see it is that you have to crop the black borders (either in Inspector or scaling options) to a timeline of 1920x1280 to get the same ratio as the original image.
Or live with black borders
Or fill the borders with the OpenFX Blanking Fill
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:40 pm

Forgot to mention but as experiment i loaded this same Topaz 1080 file into IMovie. There is fit into the 16:9 frame fully. Makes me think my problem described above must be one of settings in Resolve.

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Steve Alexander

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 6:57 pm

Can you post a link to a sample clip for someone to try?
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 8:31 pm

Thanks Mads for the reply.

I'm noticing now that Resolve has changed its behavior. Don't know what's happened but the Viewer is now automatically showing the 720 media full frame (see attached screen grab). I now see 66% in the Viewer's top left corner. If i hit "fit" it will now always go to that. I see too on the Media page, though the Media icon still shows those bars, the Timeline icon doesn't (see attached). So in a way my problem may be solved. On the oher hand I do loose some of the Topaz-gained resolution with this partial enlargement.
Attachments
AA Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 1.59.58 PM.jpg
AA Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 1.59.58 PM.jpg (56.6 KiB) Viewed 900 times
AAAA Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 1.57.20 PM.jpg
AAAA Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 1.57.20 PM.jpg (436.65 KiB) Viewed 900 times
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Mads Johansen

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 8:46 pm

It just occurred to me that it could be the Pixel Aspect Ratio in the Clip Attributes. (I normally only work with square pixels, so it's not an area I'm well versed in).
There you (or Resolve by default) can influence how the source pixels are projected onto the timeline. It wouldn't surprise me if the pixel aspect ratio of 1.5 is set and that fills the frame (or you might have set a thing in Input Scaling in Project properties)
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 9:29 pm

Hi Mads.

I'm attaching screen grabs of the clip attributes of the original SD media file as it appears in its project and of the media file as it appears in the de-interlaced and up-ressed to HD Topaz project.

You can see in the bars surrounding the Media icon in the Topaz project. They are missing in the media icon in the SD project.

As I mentioned earlier, the project with the Topaz up-ressed 1080 now shows full screen in the Viewer and Timeline, even though the bars remain on the left hand screen (the one next to the Viewer. I can never remember its name). Don't know what happened to make it begin to do this.
Attachments
ccc Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 3.09.35 PM.jpg
ccc Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 3.09.35 PM.jpg (83.04 KiB) Viewed 870 times
cc Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 3.07.35 PM.jpg
cc Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 3.07.35 PM.jpg (80.3 KiB) Viewed 870 times
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Steve Alexander

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 12:54 am

The up-rez version should not be NTSC DV 16:9, I would think it would be square pixels once converted to 1080p.
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 2:00 am

Thanks Steve, I wonder if you could be on to something.

I'm attaching below two screen grabs of the Topaz Settings menu. When I load my original SDi 720 file "Pixel Type" remains at "Original Pixel Type". As you can see in the first screen grab, I have the option of changing "Original Pixel Type" to "Square Pixel". (The second screen grab shows the settings that appear without me making any changes, that is the settings I used to produce the 1080 file that is acting strangely in Resolve)

I could run the file through Topaz again at "Square Pixel" and see what happens, but as that process takes four and a half hours I thought I'd wait for your thoughts first.

Thanks again.

John
Attachments
vvvScreen Shot 2023-12-01 at 7.37.08 PM.jpg
vvvScreen Shot 2023-12-01 at 7.37.08 PM.jpg (83.28 KiB) Viewed 811 times
vvScreen Shot 2023-12-01 at 7.36.03 PM.jpg
vvScreen Shot 2023-12-01 at 7.36.03 PM.jpg (88.29 KiB) Viewed 811 times
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Uli Plank

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 5:42 am

You can change the PAR (pixel aspect ratio) in the Clip Attributes in DR for all formats, not only SD.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Howard Roll

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 9:26 am

SD SDI was 720x486 with a pixel aspect of .9 for a 4:3 ratio, 1.333. I believe DV used the same .9 pixel ar even though it wasn’t precicesly 4:3. 16:9 footage of the era used the same 720x486 pixel count but a different (anamorphic) 1.2:1 aspect ratio.

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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 4:33 pm

Uli. Thanks for the reply. I'm attaching here the options that are given me in clip attributes. They are the same options for both the original SD 780 footage and that footage after it's been up-ressed to 1080HD in Topaz. In both cases when opened it is set at NTSC DV 16:9, which seems rith to me. I tried a few other options fron the list but nothing.

I'm still debating whteher to run the SD footage through Topaz again, this time for pixel aspect ratio selecting "square" rather than "original" which appears as the default.

Uli Plank wrote:You can change the PAR (pixel aspect ratio) in the Clip Attributes in DR for all formats, not only SD.
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PAR.jpg
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSat Dec 02, 2023 4:51 pm

Thanks to all of you who have been offering your help with this issue.

I'm trying to think of any other factors that might be causing the issue I've been describing in this thread. I set out to up-res from SD to HD a film made in 2009. Reconstituting the film would be difficult, so rather than that I took the DigiBeta master to the local lab and had them produce a digital file for me to work with. I assumed that the master would be in exactly the same as the editied film; in this case 720 SDi. When I uploaded the file the lab produced that seemed to be confirmed. But then there are the problems i've run into since. Attached is the info at the head of the DigiBeta tape. Perhaps it says something to one of you that might help in underestanding the problem of bars appearing in the Topaz up-res when imported into Resolve.

Thanks again.

John
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Digibeta master.jpg
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostSun Dec 03, 2023 7:26 pm

My problem seems to have been solved.

The answer lay in the “Pixel Aspect Ratio” settings - not those found in the Resolve but those in Topaz.

As I mentioned, when I uploaded my original SDi 720x480 media into Topaz, Topaz gave a default setting for “Pixel Type” as “Original”. I'd been leaving it at that. When I changed that to the other option given: “Square Pixel” and ran the media through Topaz the result was an up-ressed, de-interlaced HD1080 file that now plays correctly in Resolve. No more mysterious bars!

What's happened I'm not sure. I know when I've run HDV projects through Topaz I've had to choose the “Square Pixel” option, but that made an intuitive sense, as HDV uses atypical rectangular pixels. I must admit I thought SDi DV had square pixels, but maybe when DV is shot not as 4:3 but as 16:9 it switches to rectangular pixels. Who knows? (I checked my records and see that when I first experimented running HDV through Topaz and left its “Pixel Type” at “Original” it too would produce an image surrounded by bars.)

Main thing is whatever I've done I've now got full 16:9 media that I can work with.

Thanks again to all of you who have given me your thoughts and helped me long with this. Much to be said for this chat room. These conversation seem almost always to lead to solutions.

John
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Uli Plank

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostMon Dec 04, 2023 12:24 am

Just a final remark, if somebody else has this issue: DV or DigiBeta never had square pixels.
It had the sizes mentioned above.
They were only interpreted either as 4:3 or 16:9, but both were just stretching the information horizontally.
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John Whiteway

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Re: Media surrounded by black borders?

PostMon Dec 04, 2023 11:39 pm

Thanks again for all the response I have received to this post.

I'm afraid this will likely all remain a bit of a mystery to me.

I have recently up-ressed to HD two other DV SDi projects that were both 4:3. These went through Topaz just fine when I left the pixel setting at “Original”.

Two things, of course, were different with the project I've just had difficulty with. One, it was DV SDi 16:9. Two, unlike the other two projects I've just mentioned, for this one I did not have a master as a digital file of my own from the time of post-production. Here I had to use the DigiBeta master and have a digital file made from it. What impact these two factors could have had, if any, I do not know.
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