importing Apple ProRAW

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gordo019

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importing Apple ProRAW

PostFri Jan 27, 2023 6:31 pm

I have searched this forum and the internet for this import problem. When I import an Apple ProRAW image (not Apple ProRes video) I get the dreaded "Media Offline" warning. Has anyone been successful importing a ProRAW image into DR 18.1.2? My image is coming from an iPhone Pro 14. I have tried changing the Camera setting of saving the images as "Most Efficient" and "Most Compatible" without any luck. Converting the image to a jpeg works but image quality and information suffers.
This is a DNG file format.
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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 1:56 am

DR doesn’t support ProRes RAW. Get Compressor and convert to ProRes 4444 or edit in FCP-X.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 12:22 pm

Uli Plank wrote:DR doesn’t support ProRes RAW. Get Compressor and convert to ProRes 4444 or edit in FCP-X.


he is talking about proRAW (still picture)

not supported by resolve - use any still RAW (lightroom or capture one, etc) app to convert it to tiff
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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 2:36 pm

Oops, my bad.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Jan 28, 2023 4:40 pm

gordo019 wrote: Converting the image to a jpeg works but image quality and information suffers.
This is a DNG file format.


Have you actually tested how much a JPEG image really suffers? Unless you edit and resave the JPEG image multiple times then there will be no noticeable loss in quality. And what sort of initial quality are you expecting in any case given that you are using an iPhone, albeit a very good one?

If you want to edit the image, then work on the DNG in any app that is DNG-compatible (Apple Photos even if you don't have Lightroom) and export as a JPEG for importing into Resolve. There will be no degradation subsequent degradation of the image worth thinking about unless you re-edit the JPEG multiple times.

Editing some raw stills formats in Resolve is possible but far from ideal. Much better to use the right app in the first place.
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gordo019

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 2:43 am

Thank you for your comments. Just a few comments from my side....

DR18 can import Apple ProRes video but can't import a single still image of the Apple ProRaw format (DNG)? I thought the DNG format was going consolidate all the slightly different RAW formats into a universal usable format?

I would think that Black Magic would want to support images from the most used camera in the world? It's not a high-end camera, but most video and still images produced in the world come from iPhones.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 11:21 am

gordo019 wrote:Thank you for your comments. Just a few comments from my side....

DR18 can import Apple ProRes video but can't import a single still image of the Apple ProRaw format (DNG)? I thought the DNG format was going consolidate all the slightly different RAW formats into a universal usable format?

I would think that Black Magic would want to support images from the most used camera in the world? It's not a high-end camera, but most video and still images produced in the world come from iPhones.


no, resolve can also not import proresRAW video
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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 12:30 pm

Gordon was referring to ProRes, not ProRes RAW, Mark.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 2:03 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Gordon was referring to ProRes, not ProRes RAW, Mark.


read the quote +g*
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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Jan 29, 2023 3:00 pm

I was referring to his remark right above yours, not the initial one.
But, anyway, let's drop it, it seems it doesn't work anyway. For the time being, one should use an application for photography and convert. Nevertheless, it's confusing if that really is a flavour of DNG.

Apple is writing in their own support note: "ProRAW uses the industry standard digital negative (DNG) file format, so you can open ProRAW files with apps that are compatible with DNG files."
And then, DR can open DNGs, not only from their own older cameras, but from DJI drones too. Maybe it's just a minor flaw with this specific format that BM could fix soon?
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostMon Jan 30, 2023 6:39 pm

Agreed. I will drop it for now and live with converted TIFFs or JPEG stills. Maybe Apple screwed up their implementation of saving to the DNG format. I also wonder if it is that difficult for Black Magic to add Apple's version of RAW images to their import list of compatible image formats.

There are alot of us who think DR is their favorite video editor. Everything can be done within DR's 7 pages/panels. We use iPhones and DJI cameras because they are reasonably priced, prosumer quality, and small and compact.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Sep 09, 2023 5:29 am

Hi so I’m a bit confused, I have some footage on my iPhone 14 can I use use it if turned on in proRAW. Bring it into nuke as DNG then convert it to Aces colour space?
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostWed Sep 13, 2023 2:14 am

Footage or stills?
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Sep 16, 2023 11:46 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Footage or stills?



Footage
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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSun Sep 17, 2023 2:42 am

Then shoot ProRes (non-RAW) or convert.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Sep 23, 2023 8:43 am

I'd also like this; not sure how to request features with Blackmagic though.

Essentially it would probably be simpler for my ask to be - could DR please support all native camera formats (both still and motion) that the iPhone with iOS 17 can shoot.

Including but not limited to:
HEIF (8 and 10 bit, plus HDR) all resolutions
DNG (including Apples processing in ProRaw) all resolutions
Prores (all versions)


I also shoot stills in ProRaw; principally because, to as of this date, there aren't any iOS apps that save to HEIF 10-bit (although that is due to change with updates to Halide etc off the back of iOS 17's ISO HDR capability with Rec2020). The problem, which is quite common in image editors too, is that when the DNG is read, the application doesn't also read the ProRaw processing changes to the DNG file, so it reads it as a RAW with no processing. Oddly, Apple's Final Cut ignores the embedded changes as well. There is an option to export XMP's from MacOS Photos for DNGs which include the Proraw changes in a side car file, but I don't think DR can read those either.

As a side note, although BM state that DR 18.5 can read HEIF still image files; when it does, it randomly corrupts the output. I tried to get it sorted with Support in DR 17, it got passed to the developers but the bug still exists today. So I now export to PNG as an intermediate format. Not great, and extends post time, but works.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostSat Sep 23, 2023 8:11 pm

Old conversation.

BM (it seems) doesn't have a close relationship with Apple. Or something, which is speculation..

What is *not* speculation, is that several BM staffers have made clear statements that there is no expected support for ProRes RAW in Resolve... "at this time ... ".

Or ever, seems implied.

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostWed Dec 06, 2023 12:49 am

I had the same problem with Davinci on Windows 11. I was able to view iPhone ProRaw photos in the Windows Photos program and save DNG files to TIFF or PNG. When I imported the TIFF and PNG into Resolve it said they were 8 bit color not 10 bit which is what the DNG file was supposed to be. I was shooting in good light and the default HEIF files looked fine and were a lot smaller.

Blackmagic and Apple must have some kind of relationship because the recent rollout of Apple's new products was recorded using the Blackmagic Camera app on an iPhone 15 Pro Max. I wish the Camera app would take photos too.

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostWed Dec 06, 2023 10:11 pm

Mark A wrote:I had the same problem with Davinci on Windows 11. I was able to view iPhone ProRaw photos in the Windows Photos program and save DNG files to TIFF or PNG. When I imported the TIFF and PNG into Resolve it said they were 8 bit color not 10 bit which is what the DNG file was supposed to be. I was shooting in good light and the default HEIF files looked fine and were a lot smaller.

Blackmagic and Apple must have some kind of relationship because the recent rollout of Apple's new products was recorded using the Blackmagic Camera app on an iPhone 15 Pro Max. I wish the Camera app would take photos too.

Mark


IF you have Photomator on your iPhone (and probably a lot of other Apps have similar options too), you have several export options, including HDR JPG, HDR HEIC, HDR AVIF and HDR PNG. Worth a try…

Bit-depth is not everything, colorspace is also important (you can for example have rec 709 in 10-bit, but it is not necessarily HDR in the same form as a HEIC file based on P3 or 2020 colorspaces, that are far more comprehensive. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020). If you want to see the effect of P3 on a “real HDR” capable screen, you can use this link: https://webkit.org/blog-files/color-gamut/ (of your browser is up to the task too).

Lightroom 13 supports HDR (at least on Mac) and has a lot of export options, including a plethora of HDR capable format options).

Exporting to DNG may be an option, but since an iPhone ProRAW is usually NOT a “really “raw” RAW file” (not the sensor RAW Bayer type output), you’ll have to make sure, that the colorspace etc used is also exported into the user created DNG file (DNG files are not necessarily “real raw” files either - they are “just” the most portable file format, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Negative).

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostWed Dec 06, 2023 11:27 pm

Uli Plank wrote:I was referring to his remark right above yours, not the initial one.
But, anyway, let's drop it, it seems it doesn't work anyway. For the time being, one should use an application for photography and convert. Nevertheless, it's confusing if that really is a flavour of DNG.

Apple is writing in their own support note: "ProRAW uses the industry standard digital negative (DNG) file format, so you can open ProRAW files with apps that are compatible with DNG files."
And then, DR can open DNGs, not only from their own older cameras, but from DJI drones too. Maybe it's just a minor flaw with this specific format that BM could fix soon?


The ProRAW file contains a looot of metadata in addition to the basic image data. Metadata, that not necessarily is available to all “readers”, but still allows access to a subset of the full data (mentioned in this document: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211965).

ProRES files also can include a “true” depth map of the foto (supported in Lightroom 13, if I remember correctly) and mentioned in this Apple Developer article (and probablyba gazillion other places): https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... with_depth

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 12:10 am

Here are three 48 megapixel ProRES RAW from my iPhone 15 Pro, recently made, and here downscaled to 1600x1200 (to save space) in DNG 16-but colorspace 2020 format with three different settings (also quick and dirty) of focus range in Lightroom 13:

Ehhh... problem.... each file needs 7+ megabytes, sorry,,,

But, anyone with a recent iPhone and Lightroom 13, can test the (Early Access) "Lens Blur" option in Lightroom Classic (modern macOS is probably needed).

It saves me from using colonormous glass on my S5 at f1.4 and getting the "DoF area" baked in to the image for eternity. If I later decide, that I would like a different focus (or three different focus views to illustrate a point in a story), that's just tough luck,

Unless, of course, I use my iPhone 15 Pro (or the Max critter) and take the same photo.

We can argue from here to eternity, whether ProRAW is "good enough", but I have a few recent comparisons, with my Lunix S5 (with reasonably flexible 20-60 mm lens), and the extreme noise produced in available light (compared to iPhone) is no joy to clean up either. There are tiny differences, but if I do not talk about source for each photo, nobody will note.

Currently I'm only using HDR target formats (2020 colorspace - same as my videos), and this can be done from S5 RAW files too, but then there is the missing depth map (can be "guesswork" by Lightroom, but it is not quite the same - especially not if F-values below F16 or F22 were used during capture, and during night that is a bit too much for the simple minded Lunix S5 Full Frame camera in some situations ;-)

I'm still amazed by the sheer flexibility of using the 48 megapixel ProRAW format (willingly allowing up to around 100 megabyte per image - hey... I'm also using ProRES 422 or ProRES 422HQ for video, and then 100 megabyte hardly covers more than max. 1.5 seconds video footage).

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Uli Plank

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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 1:09 am

Thanks again, Kurt!
Yes, the depth map feature got excellent with recent iPhones, but I have to warn filmmakers that this applies to photography only. It looks far worse in video on critical edges, like hair. You can see that even on a single frame, and motion makes things worse.
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Re: importing Apple ProRAW

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 10:21 am

Uli Plank wrote:Thanks again, Kurt!
Yes, the depth map feature got excellent with recent iPhones, but I have to warn filmmakers that this applies to photography only. It looks far worse in video on critical edges, like hair. You can see that even on a single frame, and motion makes things worse.


For Chrissake… Uli.

If using a fair haired girl with long hair waving in the wind is not the best idea, then don’t! Use a bald guy instead? If the story is about flea ridden mutts, it probably doesn't matter anyway.

Is the green screen technique a universal no-go zone, just because it is less than ideal, when a guy wears a green shirt? Why not give the bald bloke a red bandana with matching shirt, big golden earrings, cover for one eye, and call him a pirate? Nobody is splitting hairs on that scene.

In some cases, you just have to use “Gehirnschmalz” (burn some “brain lard”).

Find better angles, don’t use long haired girls in windy environments in closeups. Show her beautiful legs instead (and if you mention hair anywhere near her in that situation, your remaining days on earth will surely be limited ;-)

The ad perpetuum “will not work” argument based on unique cases, would have made Hitchcocks “Birds” impossible from the start. Unless Hitchcock found a way to do the impossible anyway, or a way around an immovable obstacle. He did. We got “Birds”.

Think „out-of-the-box”, where there are no walls, only pitfalls, that - maybe - can be circumvented.

I’m taking a similar route. What is possible? What will work? In what light? Etc. And so on.

I’m testing, what CAN be done TODAY, and I love it.

Currently playing (ahem: evaluating). Certainly using some parts of the added experience in future edits, where appropriate and possible. No need screaming “made on iPhone” either. Just like poets seldom placed a prominent “written on IBM Selectric”, ball pen, goose feather, whatever, anywhere near their newest opus. Audience couldn't care less, if the result is done right.

Could - maybe - do completely without a focus puller in some cases, and use the money saved on even better scripts. Or higher profits (if that's your aim). If the script later is altered, and the focus somehow must work from back to front instead of front to back, no problem (even if the main actor has died in the meantime ;-)

Wouldn’t that be something? For the 99% of the "producers", that are not part of the "Arri toting elite" or makers of beauty product commercials. Don't forget to look at the bright side!

We surely live in interesting times.

Regards and remember to also have a lot of fun from time to time

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