25FPS to 24FPS

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KrunoSmithy

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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostThu Nov 28, 2024 10:48 pm

According to reference manual, at least that I was able to find, the impression I get is that project or timeline frame rate format is part of the story only. The timeline frame rate seems to be a lot like resolution, somewhat agnostic but still a bit more limited than resolution and how resolve and its many pages handle it.

There is timeline format frame rate. There is playback frame rate. There are different methods of interpolation of clips which may not be of the same frame rate. And there is output frame rate as well as various creative retiming "speed change" effects. Separate for audio and video. There is importing of timelines and nested timelines etc. There is also fusion which does its own thing.

Anyway, this is about all I could find on the topic of frame rate in the manual. Something I knew, some I didn't.

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Clip attributes are just a perpetration for other parts of resolve to read the clip as you want it.

You can directly modify Media Pool clips in the Inspector, before you edit those clips into a timeline. This allows you to change the parameters of source media so that clips that are subsequently edited into a timeline carry those new settings with it. For example, you can prepare your material prior to editing by changing the clip’s file and RAW settings, adjusting the audio levels and EQ, or assigning it a specific lens correction, etc. Once modified, any part of that clip would have the correct Inspector parameters already in place when you edited them into your timeline.

Video Frame Rate in the clip attributes: In cases where a clip’s frame rate was specified incorrectly by another application or recording device, or if there is no frame rate metadata available at all, you can change what DaVinci Resolve considers the frame rate of the source clip to be by either using this menu to choose a frame rate from 1 to 120 fps, or choosing Custom and entering a value from 1 to 32,000 fps (to accommodate high-speed and specialty format video). Changing a clip’s Video Frame Rate will change its duration and relative playback speed in DaVinci Resolve. A clip’s audio, however, will be unaffected. Please note, just because extremely high frame rate media is supported, do not expect real time performance at excessively high frame rates, and understand that what performance your workstation is capable of depends on its configuration and the speed of your storage.

Real-Time 3:2 Pulldown Removal

If you have 29.97fps interlaced material that was encoded with a 3:2 pulldown, DaVinci Resolve can reconstruct the original footage’s progressive frame rate in real time. For example, if you have source media from a film camera (24fps progressive) that has been telecined to NTSC video (29.97fps interlaced), DaVinci Resolve can pull the original 24 discrete film frames out of the various interlaced fields that make up the NTSC signal.

To remove 3:2 pulldown in real time:

1 Select one or more 29.97 fps interlaced clips in the Media Pool.
2 Right-click one of the selected clips and select Clip Attributes.
3 In the Video tab, turn on the Remove 3:2 Pulldown checkbox.

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— Timeline frame rate: Determines the primary frame rate used by the project. A variety of standard and high frame rate (HFR) settings are available. If you’re importing an AAF or XML file, this setting is automatically set via an option in the Project Import dialog. Ideally, you should choose a frame rate before importing media into the Media Pool. However, the first time you import media into an empty Media Pool, you’re prompted if the incoming media frame rate doesn’t match the Timeline frame rate set here, and you have the option of automatically updating this setting to match that of the media you’re importing. Once one or more files have been added to the Media Pool, this setting cannot be changed.

— Use drop frame timecode: Enables or disables drop frame timecode for the current project. Off by default.

— Playback frame rate: Usually mirrors the frame rate selected in the “Video format” setting (in the Video Monitoring section below), which is typically based on the frame rate of the external display that’s connected to your video interface, given the “Timeline Frame Rate” setting. For example,
a 50Hz monitor requires a 25 fps playback frame rate for synchronous display without dropped frames. If you want to monitor playback at a slower frame rate, type the frame rate of your choice in this field and DaVinci Resolve will make the appropriate calculations to drop or repeat frames as necessary to match it. This can be useful for temporarily seeing how clips look in slow motion.

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Video Monitoring

The settings available in this group control the signal that’s output by the video output interface that’s connected to your workstation, and let you specify what standard of signal is output, and via which signal path.

By default the frame size and frame rate match those in the Timeline resolution and Playback frame rate options. However, if necessary you can change these settings to match those of the external display you’re using to monitor your work. For example, if you’re working with 2K files for 2K output, but you’re color correcting using a high definition monitor set to 1080 resolution, you can select the appropriate HD standard for that monitor without changing the Timeline Resolution settings.

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— Mixed frame rate format: (Only available prior to importing media into a project) This drop-down menu lets you choose the method used to conform mixed frame rates for rendering and playback. Which option you choose dictates the accuracy with which retimed clips in DaVinci Resolve
match the same clips that were retimed in other editing applications when you import those timelines into DaVinci Resolve via XML or AAF. This drop-down menu also appears in the Load AAF or XML dialogs.
If you’re editing from scratch in DaVinci Resolve: You should leave this setting set to “Resolve.”
When importing timelines via XML from Apple software: Choose the “Final Cut Pro 7” or “Final Cut Pro X” methods of conform.

When importing timelines via XML or AAF from Premiere Pro, Media Composer, Smoke, or other NLEs: You should choose “Resolve.”

When none is selected: DaVinci Resolve conforms and processes all clips in the Timeline to play at the frame rate that’s selected in the “Timeline frame rate” drop-down menu. For example, 23.98, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94 and 60 fps clips will all play at 24 fps if that’s what “Timeline frame rate” is set to in the Master Project Settings, and clips will play slower or faster accordingly.

How clips in mixed frame rate timelines are rendered out depends on whether the Render Settings are set to render individual source clips or one single clip. When you render the Timeline as individual source clips, all clips are rendered individually at their original frame rate. If you select “single clip,” all clips are converted to the “Timeline frame rate” frame rate and rendered as a single media file.


The Retime process that’s used to render clips with differing frame rates can be changed for individual clips via the Retime Process parameter in the Edit page Inspector, or it can be changed project-wide using the Retime Process parameter found in the Frame Interpolation panel of the Master Project Settings. For more information on how each of the three available options work, see the “Frame Interpolation” section see Chapter 4, “System and User Preferences.”

If you choose “None,” then clips with frame rates that aren’t equal to the Timeline frame rate will ignore their original frame rate and will play at the Timeline rate, resulting in either faster or slower motion, depending on the difference between the original and Timeline frame rates.

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Rendering Mixed Frame Rate Timelines

Mixed frame rates are supported by DaVinci Resolve when any option other then none is selected in the “Mixed Frame Rate format” drop-down menu, either in the Conform Options section of the General Options panel of the Project Settings, or in the Import AAF or XML dialog. When you choose the appropriate option that corresponds to the application you’re exchanging projects with (or DaVinci Resolve if you’re working entirely within DaVinci Resolve), then DaVinci Resolve conforms and processes all clips in the Timeline to play at whichever frame rate is selected in the “Timeline frame rate” drop-down menu. For example, 23.98, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, and 60 fps clips will all play at 24 fps if that’s what “Timeline frame rate” is set to in the Master Settings panel of the Project Settings.

How clips in mixed frame rate timelines are rendered out depends on whether the Render Settings are set to render Individual source clips or a Single clip.

— Individual source clips: All clips are rendered individually at their original frame rate.

— Single clip: All clips are converted to the “Timecode calculated at” frame rate and rendered as a
single media file. Clips are converted using whatever method is selected in the Retime process drop-down of the Master Settings panel of the Project Settings, or in the individual Retime process setting found in the Video inspector of each clip that overrides the project-wide setting. You can choose Optical Flow processing for the highest quality conversion that’s available in DaVinci Resolve.


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Conforming EDLs to Individual Media Files

Before you import any media, make sure that the “Timeline frame rate” pop-up menu in the Master Settings panel of the Project Settings is set to a frame rate that matches your project and media. Otherwise, the EDL’s timecode will be misinterpreted.

Timeline frame rate: By default, this is derived from the frame rate of the XML file being imported. If you’re importing an XML file into a project that already has media in the Media Pool, the Timeline frame rate is locked and cannot be changed.

Use drop frame timecode: By default, this is derived from the XML file being imported.

EDL frame rate: By default, this is derived from the frame rate of the selected file.

Use drop frame timecode: By default, this is derived from the frame rate of the selected file.

Mixed frame rate format: This pop-up menu lets you choose the method used to conform mixed frame rates for rendering and playback. You can choose the “Final Cut Pro 7” or “Final Cut Pro X” methods of conform, while for projects imported from Media Composer, Premiere Pro, Smoke, or other NLEs, you should leave this set to “DaVinci Resolve.” This pop-up menu also appears in the Load XML dialogs when you import a project.

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Frame Interpolation

These settings determine the default state for all retiming and speed change effects, including when clips are in mixed frame rate timelines.

— Retime Process: This drop-down menu lets you choose a default method of processing clips
that don’t match the project frame rate in mixed frame rate timelines and clips with speed effects (fast forward or slow motion) applied to them, throughout the project. Since each clip in every timeline defaults to “Project Settings,” changing this setting will change the way most mixed frame rate and speed effected clips will be processed, except for those with custom settings selected. There are three options:

Nearest: The most processor efficient and least sophisticated method of processing; frames are either dropped for fast motion, or duplicated for slow motion.

Frame Blend: Also processor efficient, but can produce smoother results; adjacent duplicated frames are dissolved together to smooth out slow or fast motion effects. This option can provide better results when Optical Flow displays unwanted artifacts.

Optical Flow: The most processor intensive, but highest quality method of speed effect processing. Using motion estimation, new frames are generated from the original source frames to create slow or fast motion effects. The result can be exceptionally smooth when motion in a clip is linear. However, two moving elements crossing in different directions or unpredictable camera movement can cause unwanted artifacts.



— Motion estimation mode: When using mixed frame rate clips in a timeline that has Optical Flow retiming enabled, when using Optical Flow to process speed change effects, or when using Image Stabilization or Temporal Noise Reduction controls in the Color page, the Motion Estimation drop- down of the Master Settings (in the Project Settings window) lets you choose options that control the trade-off between speed and quality.

There are additional “Enhanced” Optical Flow settings available in the “Motion estimation mode” drop-down in the Master Settings panel of the Project Settings. The “Standard Faster” and “Standard Better” settings are the same options that have been available in previous versions of DaVinci Resolve. They’re more processor-efficient and yield good quality that are suitable for most situations. However, “Enhanced Faster” and “Enhanced Better” should yield superior results in nearly every case where the standard options exhibit artifacts, at the expense of being more computationally intensive, and thus slower on most systems.

“Speed Warp Faster and “Speed Warp Better” are available for even higher-quality slow motion effects using the DaVinci Neural Engine. Your results with this setting will vary according to the content of the clip, but in ideal circumstances this will yield higher visual quality with fewer artifacts than even the Enhanced Better setting-

— Motion range: When using mixed frame rate clips in a timeline that has Optical Flow retiming selected, or when using Optical Flow to process speed change effects, this drop-down menu lets you choose the default setting to use, small, medium or large motion, for all speed and motion related calculations so you can try and improve the result by matching the type of motion in the source media. This setting can also be changed on a clip by clip basis in the Edit page Inspector.

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By default, all timelines share the same frame rate, resolution, and monitoring settings as the overall project. If you like, you can also click the Use Custom Settings button to choose individual frame rate, resolution, and monitoring settings for that timeline.

Change Clip Speed parameters: Changes the speed of the selected clip by whatever percentage, frame rate, or duration you like.

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DaVinci Resolve supports the import of compound clips from Final Cut Pro X and of nested sequences from legacy Final Cut Pro 7. Both appear within DaVinci Resolve as compound clips,
in both the Timeline and the Media Pool. Compound clips with mixed frame rates are supported,
as well as multi-cam and A/V synchronized clips from Final Cut Pro X, which are represented in DaVinci Resolve as compound clips. For more information about creating and using compound clips in DaVinci Resolve, see the “Compound Clips” section of Chapter 42, “Take Selectors, Compound Clips, and Nested Timelines.”


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Because many of the effects you can create in the Fusion page are processor-intensive, there is no guarantee of real-time playback at your project’s full frame rate, unless you’ve cached your composition first. For more information, see the “Fusion RAM Cache for Playback” section later in this chapter.

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Fusion is frame by frame so its not frame per second, but frames per second played by the format. This sets the default Frame Rate for previews and final renders from the Saver tool. It also sets the playback for the comp itself, as well as the frame to time code conversion for tools with temporal inputs.

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The audio tab: Speed Change: Any adjustments made using Elastic Wave are reflected here.

Elastic Wave Audio Retiming (fairlight)

Elastic Wave retiming is a fast and easy keyframe-based way of dynamically retiming audio, squishing and stretching different parts of a waveform to subtly retime audio playback for a variety of reasons, all while maintaining constant pitch. For example, if you’re using the audio from another take to replace that of the current take, but the performer’s timing is just a little bit different, you can use Elastic Audio to make small adjustments to retime the second performance to match the first.

NOTE: All Elastic Wave retiming adjustments you make in the Fairlight page appear in the Edit page as variable speed effects, accessible using the Retime controls. Be aware that while all Elastic Wave retiming effects can appear as Edit page retime effects, not all Edit page retime effects can appear as Elastic Wave retiming effects on the Fairlight page.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostThu Nov 28, 2024 11:12 pm

Okay, I finally got to read the previous post and all this information is well worth reading. However, this doesn’t address the pitch issue with audio.

As a few have already said here, for the untrained eyes and ears for the viewing audiences, which is probably 99% of those watching this at a festival or from the Internet, just keep at at 25 and play it on the device that is 24 and so be it.

If you’re going to be analytical about this, you have some choices, again, presented here already.

1. From Marc - viewtopic.php?f=21&t=64406#p363844

2. From Kruno - use Elastic viewtopic.php?f=21&t=64406#p1102228

3. From Paul - viewtopic.php?f=21&t=64406#p1102457

I have done this a few times but with the help of the audio engineer and I used method 3. The only variation in my implementation is that I would do it clip by clip and then reassemble them into a single clip. I would had off to the audio folks and I know they use Elastic and does some final cleanup adjustments following #2.

Nothing is perfect if you’re dealing with nickels and dimes. But now you’ve got 99.9% of the viewing audience who won’t even notice it. That .1%, probably the director and your sound engineer will notice it but really, if that’s your audience, then you’re screwed.
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:09 am, edited 5 times in total.
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KrunoSmithy

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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostThu Nov 28, 2024 11:35 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:TLTR :(


TSTR!
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David Chai

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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostFri Nov 29, 2024 3:43 am

You can also try the optical flow speed warp retiming to make it work in 24fps, or else run the signal through a Teranex and convert it in real time to 24fps. There may be some subtle video artifacts but the audio will be perfect. I've found it best to redo graphics in the new format and replace them, but most everything else will be fine.
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostFri Nov 29, 2024 8:40 am

Hey

I think another topic really close to this one exists here around, just saying, but anyway, one question : for the purpose of a short which was shot in 24fps, or even another content that "must" be in 24 in the end for any reason, did someone really use that 25fps onto a 24 fps TL trick without any other additional touch, whatever it could be ?

I confess I'm a bit surprised, because... why dedicated tools - efficient or not - would even exist if it is so simple/basic ? :D (real question)

For example, about that 4% slower speed of audio : none ever export it and "fix" it elsewhere to match ?
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostFri Nov 29, 2024 9:33 am

DaVinci has a pitch shift built into the speed changer but it also affects tempo/actors delivery/the motion of life: artificially slowed.
to the deaf person the dancer appears mad
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostFri Nov 29, 2024 9:49 am

Sometimes I feel like life should be slowed down a bit – artificially or not ;-)
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostFri Nov 29, 2024 10:09 am

I prefer naturally slowed.

My effort to emoji got an error message … ?
to the deaf person the dancer appears mad
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostSat Nov 30, 2024 3:12 am

Roen Davis wrote:
My effort to emoji got an error message … ?

You can only use the emoji provided in the forum…. Kind of like using Resolve. :lol:
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostSat Nov 30, 2024 6:47 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
Roen Davis wrote:
My effort to emoji got an error message … ?

You can only use the emoji provided in the forum…. Kind of like using Resolve. :lol:


And not more than 4...
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostSat Nov 30, 2024 11:22 pm

John Paines wrote:
Sorry, but I don't think you do understand. Imagine a projector which works at only one speed -- 24fps. You have a movie that was recorded at 25fps. Same film size, same sprockets, but recorded at 25fps.

What will happen when you put that 25fps film in a 24fps projector? Will the projector interpolate the 25fps program? Will it add or drop frames to come out even? Or will it play back the program the only way it knows how - at 24fps?

When you select "none" in mixed frame rate preferences, that's what your telling the system to do. Ignore the original frame rate and play back everything at the timeline rate.


Thanks John. The concept is easy to understand. I misunderstood your claim of 'frame for frame' to mean exact copy, including length.
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostSun Dec 01, 2024 5:15 pm

Frame is a frame (a still).
Fps just dictates how long you keep this frame shown before you switch to next one.
Problem with recording is that you need frames in precise point of time, which is also dictated by fps.
You can't just skip or repeat them (unless you have really high fps recording) or move in time as then motion is broken. This is is why conversion is difficult as you have to re-create about all of them, not just the "missing" ones. Eg. 24 -> 25 doesn't just create 1 new (missing) frame. It creates all new frames (there will be just some cases when original frame is at the correct point of time).


At the moment "best" method for 24<->25 is speed change, not actual conversion. It still represents better compromise than artefacts from even the best conversion tool.
Other than this we should use original fps of the source as it's quite ridiculous that even today we are forced to do conversion. Different fps for different countries is pure nonsense in today's reality.
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostMon Dec 02, 2024 12:39 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:At the moment "best" method for 24<->25 is speed change, not actual conversion. It still represents better compromise than artefacts from even the best conversion tool.
Seconded. Plus, the best conversion tools are rendering very slow.
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostMon Dec 02, 2024 1:19 am

And the 25/24 speed change was deemed acceptable for many years. It wouldn't have occurred to anyone to worry about it. Program runs a little slow, so what....

Another case where the availability of advanced technology to all ends up making the product worse.
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Re: 25FPS to 24FPS

PostMon Dec 02, 2024 1:28 am

And it has been done the other way around for movies in European broadcasting for decades. If „Titanic“ ran a few minutes shorter on TV, it was not necessarily censorship;-)
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