PAL 720x576 16:9 wrong aspect ratio

I want to edit some old PAL SD 16x9 DV-AVI footage.
When I set the timeline resolution to 720 x 576 PAL 16:9 I get a wrong aspect ratio in the preview screen of the Media, Cut, Edit, and Fairlight Page (see att. screenshot).
In Fusion, Color and Deliver it is OK (16:9)

What am I doing wrong?

Aspect_Ratio_SD_16x9.JPG (184.37 KiB) Viewed 24859 times

Didn't need to use the PAL 16:9 timeline so I can't tell whether there is aspect ratio correction option, but it looks like another subtle hint for us to use a BMD video monitoring card... because there is a PAL 16:9 aspect option in video monitoring section and I bet it does what you need

A workaround is this: since you have Studio version, you can use video clean feed option, after you have set the gpu output resolution to 720x576 50Hz. Provided your second monitor supports that resolution/refresh rate/aspect ratio correction...like a TV....forget about proper interlace monitoring though, don't think it's supported with video clean feed...

I think it has been this way for quite a time, without a fix.

[Dmitry Kitsov BMD]

I want to edit some old PAL SD 16x9 DV-AVI footage.
When I set the timeline resolution to 720 x 576 PAL 16:9 I get a wrong aspect ratio in the preview screen of the Media, Cut, Edit, and Fairlight Page (see att. screenshot).
In Fusion, Color and Deliver it is OK (16:9)

What am I doing wrong?

Aspect_Ratio_SD_16x9.JPG

Do you need to deliver in the pal sd 16x9, or are you delivering something more current in a square pixel aspect ratio?
If delivery to PAL 16x9 is not critical, simply set your timeline to the desired resolution — for example, 1280x720, or if you want to stay in the SD 16x9 1024x576 864x486. You will also need to use the clip attributes for the source media to tag it as PAL 16x9 aspect ratio material to normalize it to the square pixel aspect ration timeline.

Problem is with inconsistency between different tabs. Eg. Color tab will show correctly stretched video when Edit won't. Why?
It has been discussed already few times if I remember well.

"Resize image in viewer to square pixels" option does what it should, but only for Color/Fusion tab
What about Edit tab and others?

When Resolve offers a PAL 720x576 16:9 Timeline-Resolution I expect that the preview ist consistent 16:9 in all tabs. Independent whether it is on clean feed screen or not. BTW on clean feed screen (16:9 4K TV) it is squeezed as well.

IMHO this is a bug that should be fixed since I can't edit this footage well.

IMHO this is a bug that should be fixed since I can't edit this footage well.

I agree. This problem occurs with every anamorphic picture not only 16:9 PAL.

change the clip attributes:

Screenshot 2019-12-17 at 14.34.07.jpg (53.76 KiB) Viewed 24549 times

change the clip attributes:

Did you try?

Did you try?

of course, you have to set the flag at PAL and NTSC 16:9 or anamorphic material!

on ALL clips (select all and change with one click)

Did you try?

of course, you have to set the flag at PAL or NTSC 16:9 or anamorphic material!

And you have correct aspect ratio in viewer on edit page? Please show me because I won't believe it.

A have cinemascope material from Alexa, Clip Attributes set to Cinemascope, in Project Settings, pixel aspect ratio set to Cinemascope, and I have correct aspect in Color, Fusion and Deliver Page but no in Edit page (and Cut too).

It's not a matter of clip attributes. Resolve detects the PAL 16:9 of the footage correct.
See left Resolve's clip atributes, right Media Info

Clip_attributes.JPG (213.46 KiB) Viewed 24534 times

It's a bug in setting the aspect ratio of the preview window in some tabs, not in all!
Even when I set the project's timeline resolution to 720x576 PAL 16:9 in an empty project with not one clip in the media pool the aspect of the preview is wrong.

wrong_adspect_ratio.JPG (129.82 KiB) Viewed 24534 times

here we go with anamorphic (cinemascope)

original:

original.jpg (231.65 KiB) Viewed 24535 times

edit page:

edit.jpg (314.11 KiB) Viewed 24535 times

cut page:

cut.jpg (244.28 KiB) Viewed 24535 times

here we go with anamorphic (cinemascope)

It seems to me that you just set aspect pixel to square in project settings, this is not a solution.

premiere CC2020 also ignore the flag of a PAL 16:9

Maybe it's a matter of MacOS vs. Windows?

Can you verify this on your Mac. Here's a download (some 38MB) of a short SD PAL 16:9 clip
https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/ncgqlAwp

Set the project's timeline resolution to 720x576 PAL 16:9

here we go with anamorphic (cinemascope)

It seems to me that you just set aspect pixel to square in project settings, this is not a solution.

no i will set to cinemascope in clip attributes - change on click the OK button

Yes, but in project settings you have pixel aspect setted to square pixel. Look, you have black bars at the top and bottom of the clip.

Maybe it's a matter of MacOS vs. Windows?

Can you verify this on your Mac. Here's a download (some 38MB) of a short SD PAL 16:9 clip
https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/ncgqlAwp

Set the project's timeline resolution to 720x576 PAL 16:9

with the attributes are all correkt:

all.jpg (198.62 KiB) Viewed 24518 times

without, only cut page shows in 16:9




EDIT:

ah, the timeline setting was on 1080HD

all SD are wrong !!! your'e right !

Yes, but in project settings you have pixel aspect setted to square pixel. Look, you have black bars at the top and bottom of the clip.

the clip was shot with 2.0x anamorphic glas !

Screenshot 2019-12-17 at 15.46.38.jpg (18.57 KiB) Viewed 24508 times

with the attributes are all correkt:

...

without, only cut page shows in 16:9

It seems to behave different on MacOS and on Windows

with the attributes are all correkt:

...

without, only cut page shows in 16:9

It seems to behave different on MacOS and on Windows

see my edit:

EDIT:

ah, the timeline setting was on 1080HD

all SD are wrong !!! your'e right !

ah, the timeline setting was on 1080HD

all SD are wrong !!! your'e right !

Mark, with anamorphic is same situation. Try set to Cinemascope in Project Settings.

all SD are wrong !!! your'e right !

It took some time to convince you
Now it's time to convince BMD to fix this bug.

[Dmitry Kitsov BMD]

The following is to provide a little bit of explanation, not to dismiss the concerns.
Unless you are delivering with the none square pixel aspect ratio, there is no need to set your timeline settings to a non-square pixel aspect ratio.
So go ahead, choose a timeline format that matches the delivery intent rather than the source clip, and yes, you will need to tag the sources appropriately in the Clip Attributes dialog or use an appropriate scaling preset in the Clip Attributes, if one was created for this particular situation.
For those curious of explanation:
In Resolve, there are multiple points in the image processing where scaling can be applied, and scaling/sizing can be used for a variety of reasons (some of them historic). Output to all pages' viewers is affected by the output scaling. A default output scaling setting is to match timeline settings. If you have a timeline with a non-square pixel aspect ratio, then the output to viewers and hardware I/O will match.
A preference referred to: Resolve▸Preferences…▸User▸UI Settings: Resize Image in Viewer to Square pixel refers to Color Viewers only.
A workflow scenario is such —  a colorist working with a PAL or NTSC timeline would be sending the SDI output to an SD NTSC or PAL monitor and expect correct aspect ratio there, or in case of working in the non-SD CinemaScope formatted timeline and SDI output would be sent to a projector with an anamorphic lens, stretching the image horizontally to achieve proper aspect ratio. At the same time, it may be useful to look at a "normalized" to the square pixel aspect ratio of the computer monitor image on the COLOR page.
Granted, it may be desirable to have the same PAR correction applied in the Edit page, but at the same time, there is exceedingly little reason to work in the timelines with a non-square pixel aspect ratio, even if the sources are non-square pixel aspect ratio.

If Color page can have proper aspect in monitor viewer and not affect SDI preview then there is no reason for other pages not to have same ability (except some Resolve internal engine limitation in this aspect).
This different behaviour between different Resolve tabs is actually very confusing.

Huge majority people which use this non-queare pixel formats are delivering to TV, etc, and they require standard frame size. They can't use square pixels. The need is real and enforced by broadcast standards.
There is still a lot of people who need it and every NLE out there is capable of it.

There is also bug with SD aspect flagging for 4x3 and 16x9 in MOV export.
Details are here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=103812#p574526

Granted, it may be desirable to have the same PAR correction applied in the Edit page, but at the same time, there is exceedingly little reason to work in the timelines with a non-square pixel aspect ratio, even if the sources are non-square pixel aspect ratio.

If I work with non-square video, and delivering it at non-square pixel aspect ratio, I see no reason why I should not edit it on non-square timeline. If Color page, Deliver and Fusion can display a non-square timeline correctly, why can't Edit page? This is definitely a bug.

Bug or problem related to some internal engine limitation. What sounds "simple" for end user may not necessarily be true from programming point.

Bug or problem related to some internal engine limitation. What sounds "simple" for end user may not necessarily be true from programming point.

Yes, you are right of course.

Still not fixed in 16.2.0.055

DR16.2.0.55_wrong_aspect_ratio.JPG (231.04 KiB) Viewed 23637 times

I have no problem here changing the PAR in the Clip Attributes.
The clips are then displayed correctly in the viewer.

Thanks for you comment Uli, but unfortunately your suggestion doesn't help. Resolve detects the Pixel Aspect Ratio of the clip correct (PAL 16:9).

Here again the conditions to replicate this bug:
- a clip PAL SD (720x576) 16:9
- Project Master Settings: Timeline resolution 720x576 PAL 16:9, Pixel Aspect Ratio 16:9 anamorphic
Result: the clip is shown as 4:3 in the preview*)

Timeline resolution 720x576 PAL 16:9 is important, with a timeline resolution of 1920x1080 the preview is OK.

Here again a download link for a DV-AVI testclip https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/ncgqlAwp. Clips with e.g. AVC in a .mp4 container (stabilized with Mercalli V4) behave the same.

*)
Preview is correct (16:9) in: Fusion, Color, Deliver
Preview is wrong (4:3) in: Media, Cut, Edit, Fairlight
replicated with Resolve Studio 16.2.0.055

Thanks for you comment Uli, but unfortunately your suggestion doesn't help. Resolve detects the Pixel Aspect Ratio of the clip correct (PAL 16:9).

Here again the conditions to replicate this bug:
- a clip PAL SD (720x576) 16:9
- Project Master Settings: Timeline resolution 720x576 PAL 16:9, Pixel Aspect Ratio 16:9 anamorphic
Result: the clip is shown as 4:3 in the preview*)

Timeline resolution 720x576 PAL 16:9 is important, with a timeline resolution of 1920x1080 the preview is OK.

Here again a download link for a DV-AVI testclip https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/ncgqlAwp. Clips with e.g. AVC in a .mp4 container (stabilized with Mercalli V4) behave the same.

*)
Preview is correct (16:9) in: Fusion, Color, Deliver
Preview is wrong (4:3) in: Media, Cut, Edit, Fairlight
replicated with Resolve Studio 16.2.0.055

You're right, DaVinci has problems working with anamorphic pixels.

You can solve the preview in Timeline Settings: Set output manually to 1024x576. But be careful on Delivery page if you need export an anamorphic resolution video. You have to return it back to right resolution.

The following is to provide a little bit of explanation, not to dismiss the concerns.
Unless you are delivering with the none square pixel aspect ratio, there is no need to set your timeline settings to a non-square pixel aspect ratio.
So go ahead, choose a timeline format that matches the delivery intent rather than the source clip, and yes, you will need to tag the sources appropriately in the Clip Attributes dialog or use an appropriate scaling preset in the Clip Attributes, if one was created for this particular situation.
For those curious of explanation:
In Resolve, there are multiple points in the image processing where scaling can be applied, and scaling/sizing can be used for a variety of reasons (some of them historic). Output to all pages' viewers is affected by the output scaling. A default output scaling setting is to match timeline settings. If you have a timeline with a non-square pixel aspect ratio, then the output to viewers and hardware I/O will match.
A preference referred to: Resolve▸Preferences…▸User▸UI Settings: Resize Image in Viewer to Square pixel refers to Color Viewers only.
A workflow scenario is such —  a colorist working with a PAL or NTSC timeline would be sending the SDI output to an SD NTSC or PAL monitor and expect correct aspect ratio there, or in case of working in the non-SD CinemaScope formatted timeline and SDI output would be sent to a projector with an anamorphic lens, stretching the image horizontally to achieve proper aspect ratio. At the same time, it may be useful to look at a "normalized" to the square pixel aspect ratio of the computer monitor image on the COLOR page.
Granted, it may be desirable to have the same PAR correction applied in the Edit page, but at the same time, there is exceedingly little reason to work in the timelines with a non-square pixel aspect ratio, even if the sources are non-square pixel aspect ratio.

Can you help me, Dmitry, how to export a 720x576 (or 720x480) video with a square pixel?

Thanks!

Digital video in PAL or NTSC didn't have square pixels. Both were 720 wide and while PAL was stretched to 768 x 576, NTSC was squeezed to 640 x 480.

I think the concept is just like this: DR always works with square pixels internally, they get interpreted when coming in and get squeezed again on delivery if needed. Probably this is due to the resolution independence of many operations, they are always handled as percentages. Programs like After Effects, for example, handle things as pixels.
And then, after all, anamorphic pixels are getting out of use in newer formats like UHD or 4K.

I see no problem in using a timeline with 1024 x 576 (for PAL) and setting Deliver like this:

Bildschirmfoto 2020-03-24 um 21.28.17.png

If you want to preserver original frame size then you should always work in native source size and in case of those SD formats only preview should be "pixel corrected", so you don't watch squeezed images.

Buy using 1024x576 timeline you will do upscale and later at export downscale back to 720x576.
This is not the best way and should be avoided as you do 2 resize operations for no reason (just to avoid Resolve's inability to apply simple aspect correction in color page).

I confirm that Resolve shows wrong aspect ratio on Cut, Edit, Fairlight and Media pages.
This is clearly a UI inconsistency that should be fixed.
Please, do not provide any 'historic' related excuses or workarounds for this. We are talking about a software that is advertised as an editing tool and you guys made enormous effort for this to become true (and thank you for that). This will be just a tad stretch further. In case some colorists prefer to work with 'distorted' anamorphic footage (sending the image to lens distorted projector, obviously), you could make it an option: conform Media/Edit/Cut/Fairlight page Viewer to use default aspect ratio or to use a Timeline specified one.

Steps to reproduce:

create Timeline with PAL 16:9 format

add a video from this link

This is an example video of what you will see

Digital video in PAL or NTSC didn't have square pixels. Both were 720 wide and while PAL was stretched to 768 x 576, NTSC was squeezed to 640 x 480.

Everybody knows it, I think. How it resolves a DaVinci issues with anamorphic pixels or that DaVinci cannot export 720x576, 720x480 resolution video with squared pixel?

If you want to preserver original frame size then you should always work in native source size and in case of those SD formats only preview should be "pixel corrected", so you don't watch squeezed images.

Buy using 1024x576 timeline you will do upscale and later at export downscale back to 720x576.
This is not the best way and should be avoided as you do 2 resize operations for no reason (just to avoid Resolve's inability to apply simple aspect correction in color page).

That's right, this is not the best way, but sometimes you have to publish anamorphic SD video with square resolution. It may not be what we're talking about, but it's related to a loss of quality in repeat conversions. This can be solved by converting SD video to ProRes first. ProRes does not experience loss of quality on repeat conversions.

I confirm that Resolve shows wrong aspect ratio on Cut, Edit, Fairlight and Media pages.
This is clearly a UI inconsistency that should be fixed.
Please, do not provide any 'historic' related excuses or workarounds for this. We are talking about a software that is advertised as an editing tool and you guys made enormous effort for this to become true (and thank you for that). This will be just a tad stretch further. In case some colorists prefer to work with 'distorted' anamorphic footage (sending the image to lens distorted projector, obviously), you could make it an option: conform Media/Edit/Cut/Fairlight page Viewer to use default aspect ratio or to use a Timeline specified one.

Steps to reproduce:

create Timeline with PAL 16:9 format

add a video from this link

This is an example video of what you will see

Your example file displays correctly in 16:9 aspect on EVERY page in every viewer on my system. I think you may need to check all your settings.

If my timeline is set to square 1024 x 576 your clip displays correctly in all my viewers too.
I'm not afraid of up- and downscaling if I relate that minor effect to the overall quality of SD cameras, even professional ones. Who needs optimized or cached media on any decent hardware for SD?

My timeline is set to 720 x 576 16:9 aspect and all viewers display the correct 16:9 aspect.

I think you may need to check all your settings.

Can you please post all your settings?

So, it might be a PC thing.

I think you may need to check all your settings.

I don't think there's a hell lot of settings to check for:

So, it might be a PC thing.

Nope, just checked both on Mac and PC, the issue is the same

If you want to preserver original frame size then you should always work in native source size and in case of those SD formats only preview should be "pixel corrected", so you don't watch squeezed images.

Buy using 1024x576 timeline you will do upscale and later at export downscale back to 720x576.
This is not the best way and should be avoided as you do 2 resize operations for no reason (just to avoid Resolve's inability to apply simple aspect correction in color page).

That's right, this is not the best way, but sometimes you have to publish anamorphic SD video with square resolution. It may not be what we're talking about, but it's related to a loss of quality in repeat conversions. This can be solved by converting SD video to ProRes first. ProRes does not experience loss of quality on repeat conversions.

If you want/have to deliver square pixels video (web etc.) then you have no choice- you have to scale and use project with square proportion as 4x3 or 16x9. This is fine.

It's quality loss due to engaging scaling not related to generations. Re-sizing by 2 pixels is basically as bad as resizing by 50 pixels. It all comes down to fact that re-sizing is engaged at all. If you need to do such a thing just to see correct aspect video preview in your NLE then this is bit silly. Better edit squeezed image in such a case, even if many time you won't see much a of difference.

720x576->1024x576->720x576 is not anymore same pixels as original at all.
720x576->722x576->720x576 is not anymore same pixels as original either.

Digital video in PAL or NTSC didn't have square pixels. Both were 720 wide and while PAL was stretched to 768 x 576, NTSC was squeezed to 640 x 480.

Everybody knows it, I think. How it resolves a DaVinci issues with anamorphic pixels or that DaVinci cannot export 720x576, 720x480 resolution video with squared pixel?

No idea what are you talking about.
You either export correct SD PAL/NTSC frame size (egg. because it goes further to broadcast) or you create new master at chosen resolution with square pixels (because you want it for eg web etc. ). Resolve does both. It just doesn't show correct preview for timeline tab for non-square pixels sources.

So, it might be a PC thing.

Easy to check.

Make sure your Output Scaling is set to a square pixel 16:9 format such as HD or 1024 x 576.

I think you may need to check all your settings.

I don't think there's a hell lot of settings to check for:

So, it might be a PC thing.

Nope, just checked both on Mac and PC, the issue is the same

There is 1 more.
Resolve main preferences User/UI Settings: "Resize image to square pixels in viewers"