The dream (budget) 8K system?

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Roen Davis

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The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 7:09 am

I have witnessed topics like this generate quite a fever....oooops....bad metaphor

AMD with Nvidia GPUs?

is the AMD GPU no AI rumour correct?

A motherboard with enough x16 lanes to do GPUs and NVME RAID?
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 11:30 am

I was hoping isolating forum folk would be throwing ideas just as respite from the boredom...
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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 1:26 pm

Hi.

You don't tell us, what kind of 8K videos you want to edit in Resolve?

Is it from a RED Camera, ProRes or may be from one of the new Mobiles, which can record in 8K, as the Samsung Galaxy S20, S20+, S20 Ultra or the Xiaomi Mi 10, Mi 10 Pro?

But one of the main problem, as I see it, is that for handling 8K videos in fp32, will Resolve require a little more than 16GB VRam.

Lets hope one of the coming nVidea Ampere, Navi 'High End' or Intel Xe Graphics Cards will have the necessary vRam.
It will be perfect, if we can have more than one choice. Competition will always be good for the consumers.

Regards Carsten.
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 1:52 pm

Carsten Sellberg wrote:Hi.

You don't tell us, what kind of 8K videos you want to edit in Resolve?

Is it from a RED Camera, ProRes or may be from one of the new Mobiles, which can record in 8K, as the Samsung Galaxy S20, S20+, S20 Ultra or the Xiaomi Mi 10, Mi 10 Pro?




Yes! I want it all. For a song.
I get RED and iPhone footage and everything in between!
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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 2:19 pm

Roen Davis wrote: I get RED and iPhone footage and everything in between!


Hi.

Here is a link to a 3:19 min long YouTube where RED Camera promote the 64 core 128 thread Threadripper 3990X:



And 8K videos have 4 times the pixels of 4K videos. You can Edit and Grade 4K videos in Resolve with 6GB of vRam, so you can also edit 8K videos with 24GB vRam.
The only Graphic Card I ever had read about with 24GB of vRam is the nVidea Titan RTX. Suggest you have a look at it?

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/deep-learn ... titan-rtx/

But I wonder, what to expect in the coming nVidea Ampere series of Graphic Cards.

Regards Carsten.
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Dermot Shane

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 02, 2020 3:13 pm

budget + 8k + 2020 = pain

i graded / finished a film shot on red helium @ 8k useing a decent workstation in a proper machine room two weeks ago

worked in a Dci4kFlat timeline, everyone was happy with the workflow, i never felt the machine was a huge issue, but i was aware of not getting to close to it's limits, something i rarely think about....

working on 8k with today's tools is like working on 4k when a z800 or 5.1 was the hot ticket, or working on HD when a dual 1c 900mhz IBM Zpro or orignal macpro was the hot ticket... give it a year or two, and threadripper + ampere seems like the obvious path

i added up the horsepower of the SGI Onyx i used 25 years ago, was the size of a fridge, needed a stove plug, and had a total of 500Mhz processing power
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 1:33 am

Dermot Shane wrote:
i added up the horsepower of the SGI Onyx i used 25 years ago, was the size of a fridge, needed a stove plug, and had a total of 500Mhz processing power


My first job in video was 1981 with a company called Image East.
They were trying to parallel a company in LA (?) called Image West and they (East) bought a system from West called Scanimate. It was an analogue computer that took up an entire room. Image East couldn't sustain ownership and it went to another Sydney company, VTC. By the time I got to work at VTC the Scanimate got almost no work, just took up space and collected dust. It had patch fields for creating effects. Not sure how but I guess patching this oscillator into that ...

The big question today is i9, Xeon or AMD?
RTX or Quadro?
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Marc Wielage

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 8:46 am

I think putting the words "budget" and "8K" in the same sentence ain't gonna work.
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 9:33 am

Well...as budget as possible.

8K isn’t my everyday thing but one client in particular does crazy installations with wild creative display ideas.
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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 10:17 am

Roen Davis wrote: The big question today is i9, Xeon or AMD?
RTX or Quadro?


Hi.

Here are two short answers, if you ask what to choose for today.

Intel are still having problem with producing CPU's build on less than the 14nm process node.
So I will recommend you to choose an AMD Threadripper. For all variants of RED in 8K, choose the 64 core 128 threads CPU version.
I have previous in this forum read, that a AMD Threadripper 32 core 64 threads CPU, can decode some less demanding variants of 8K RED.

Resolve do all its Image processing in RGB fp32. Quadros have its advantages in fp64. So for Resolve is there no reason to get a PC with the more expensive Quadro.

But that is todays recommendations. What will happen in the future?

We are still expecting the coming nVidea Ampere, AMD Navi 'High End' and the first small version of the Intel Xe plug in Graphics Card in 2020.

And in the next 2-3 years, do I expect to see some real changes in Graphics Card Hardware.

At its Financial Analyst Day 2020 AMD told us, that it will split its GPU architecture up in two lines. One line for Gaming CPU's and an another line for Compute GPU's. Here is what I know about the coming AMD Compute GPU's.
It is not a single introduction, but a class of Graphics Cards that will be improved from generation to generation.

I expect the first card to be the successor of the Radeon Instinct MI50. The rumors call it Radeon Instinct MI100 and is expected in the 2nd half of this year. You can try to google 'Radeon Instinct MI100'.

But QUOTE: 'AMD's plan over the next two generations of products is for the IF ( Infinity Fabric ) to turn into its own architectural design, no longer just between CPU-to-CPU or GPU-to-GPU, and future products will see a near all-to-all integration.' for CPU-to-GPU connectivity.

From: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15596/am ... everything

And AMD's plans go further. They just don't want to connect CPU-to-GPU with a very fast connection, but also plan to let the CPU and GPU to share the memory and its cache.

In this link is a 'Representation of AMD's diagram':

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15590/am ... 25d-and-3d

QUOTE: ' AMD’s diagrams show four main compute chiplets, arranged in a 2x2 pattern, and then 4-high stacked die with one per chiplet ..... it seems that the ‘die stacking’ element points to HBM or some form of memory, while the compute chiplets in the middle are only one high, but all connected through the interposer. AMD is claiming that this level of integration offers a 10x increase in bandwidth'

Here is a link to a 3:02:28 long YouTube with
'AMD Financial Analyst Day 2020' Recording from the Live stream.



From 2:58:20 to 3:00:12 in the Q&A part of the AMD event. AMD's David Wang, Senior Vice President Engineering explain the benefit of this unified memory.

As I see it, is this or competing systems the future of Resolve.

At some point in the future will Intel solve its problem, to produce dies on less than the 14nm process node. And may be this Ponte Vecchio with Rambo Cache, can compete with the above AMD system. Here is a link to:

'Analyzing Intel’s Discrete Xe-HPC Graphics Disclosure: Ponte Vecchio, Rambo Cache, and Gelato'

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15188/an ... te-vecchio

As I see it, will it always be expensive to be an early adopter. And I expect the next wave of 8K Resolve users, or the next wave again, will have other and better possibilities. But I also understand, that the first of you, soon will have to choose what hardware to buy.

Regards Carsten.
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 11:03 am

Plenty to digest!
Thank you.
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 2:57 pm

This is about the lowest spec you should go for at the moment when you want to work with 8k footage, some things you can leave out or pick smaller some you can increase and sometimes you want to add things like more memory or spinning redundant storage. This system has, among others: 2 TB3 ports and 1 10G/ethernet port.

prices are in AUD$

PCPartPicker Part List: https://au.pcpartpicker.com/list/x6KJRk

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5 GHz 16-Core Processor ($1346.40 @ Newegg Australia)
51 fps BRAW 8k 3:1 or 56 fps BRAW 8k 8:1 and 24 fps .R3D 5:1
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12A 60.09 CFM CPU Cooler ($175.00 @ PLE Computers)
One of the best cooling silent air-coolers
Motherboard: ASRock X570 CREATOR ATX AM4 Motherboard ($916.30 @ Newegg Australia)
Good MB with 2x TB3 and 1 10G/ethernet
Memory: OLOy Warhawk RGB 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($509.30 @ Newegg Australia)
You can upgrade to 128 GB when doing a lot of Fusion
Storage: Crucial MX500 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($199.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
For OS and programs (often faster than NVMe drives for OS and Programs)
Storage: Corsair MP510 1.92 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($563.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
Storage: Corsair MP510 1.92 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($563.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
3.84 TB NVMe in raid-0 should be fast and big enough as a 8k scratch drive
Video Card: XFX Radeon VII 16 GB Video Card ($1022.22 @ Amazon Australia)
16 GB is the absolute minimum for 8k, one step up is the RTX Titan with 24 GB for ~$4600
Case: Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($179.00 @ JW Computers)
Just a nice good quality case
Power Supply: Super Flower Leadex Titanium 850 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular BTX Power Supply ($259.00 @ PCCaseGear)
Don't cut corners on a PSU, it's the hart of the system

Total: $5732.22
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-04-08 00:38 AEST+1000
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 3:51 pm

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5 GHz 16-Core Processor ($1346.40 @ Newegg Australia)
51 fps BRAW 8k 3:1 or 56 fps BRAW 8k 8:1 and 24 fps .R3D 5:1
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12A 60.09 CFM CPU Cooler ($175.00 @ PLE Computers)
One of the best cooling silent air-coolers
Motherboard: ASRock X570 CREATOR ATX AM4 Motherboard ($916.30 @ Newegg Australia)
Good MB with 2x TB3 and 1 10G/ethernet
Memory: OLOy Warhawk RGB 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($509.30 @ Newegg Australia)
You can upgrade to 128 GB when doing a lot of Fusion
Storage: Crucial MX500 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($199.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
For OS and programs (often faster than NVMe drives for OS and Programs)
Storage: Corsair MP510 1.92 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($563.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
Storage: Corsair MP510 1.92 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($563.00 @ Skycomp Technology)
3.84 TB NVMe in raid-0 should be fast and big enough as a 8k scratch drive
Video Card: XFX Radeon VII 16 GB Video Card ($1022.22 @ Amazon Australia)
16 GB is the absolute minimum for 8k, one step up is the RTX Titan with 24 GB for ~$4600
Case: Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($179.00 @ JW Computers)
Just a nice good quality case
Power Supply: Super Flower Leadex Titanium 850 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular BTX Power Supply ($259.00 @ PCCaseGear)
Don't cut corners on a PSU, it's the hart of the system

Total: $5732.22
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-04-08 00:38 AEST+1000[/quote]

Wonder if this makes 4k editing, color correcting almost real-time. I'll have to save for this. Not a must-have for me. Beats the basic mac pro way behind. Thanks, Misha.

Ricardo Marty
Resolve 16, Abelton, Focusrite,
Inspiron 5675 1800x 8/16 core, Radeon RX580/8,16 GB ram, 512 sd, 500 Samsung Pro ssd.
Lenovo Y520, Quad 1777hq,NV1059/6,16gb ram,512 nvme sd, 1tb Samsung Evo pr
Sony FS700R, Bmp4k, Sony A6600.
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 5:39 pm

Yep, the cheapest and way slower basic Mac Pro is AUD$ 9,999. This one is only AUD$ 5,732.22.
We use a similar setups to process 4.6k BRAW and 4k Cineform(from 4.6k BRAW), it's way faster than realtime.
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostWed Apr 08, 2020 2:04 am

Yeah, for any high-end workstations Apple can't compete anymore.
Maybe they should stick to making masks, just like Lamborghini…
Resolve Studio 16.2 and Fusion Studio under MacOS Mojave 10.14.6
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostWed Apr 08, 2020 9:20 am

Uli Plank wrote:Yeah, for any high-end workstations Apple can't compete anymore. Maybe they should stick to making masks, just like Lamborghini…

Oh, I think the new 2019 Mac Pro is a useful workstation that can work. We priced comparable systems from Puget, Dell, and HP, and they were all in the same price range ($15K-$18K). The Mac came out on the high side of that, but not that far off. It's just a question of buying what you're comfortable with and what will get the job done.
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostWed Apr 08, 2020 10:54 am

Unsuccessful editing of Post.
Last edited by Carsten Sellberg on Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostWed Apr 08, 2020 11:53 am

Marc Wielage wrote: We priced comparable systems from Puget, Dell, and HP, and they were all in the same price range ($15K-$18K).


Hi.

The 2019 Mac Pro can use Radeon Pro Vega II and Micha suggest a XFX Radeon VII 16 GB Video Card. Both uses similar Graphic Cards with a HBCC ( High Bandwidth Cache Controller )

QUOTE: ' The HBCC reserves a portion of system memory for use by the GPU, effectively extending the VRAM capacity.
The HBCC then manages the migration of data between local VRAM and system memory, making sure the right bits are in VRAM as needed.'

From: https://community.amd.com/community/gam ... -workloads

I am sure it will work for 8K RED videos in Resolve.

But I wonder what Graphics Card Puget, Dell, and HP offered for 8K RED work in Resolve?

Regards Carsten.
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Roen Davis

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 09, 2020 5:28 am

I appreciate the recommendations from Carsten and Misha!
I think Misha has done me a shopping list once before. Thank you.
The AMD GPUs are rumoured to fall short in AI cores or something - worth worrying about?
And Fusion - I find Fusion very slow to respond. I have been really impressed with some of the results. It has good cushioning on moves and the Deltakey with Clean plate is really good too - wispy hair worries a thing of the past! (Maybe I just haven’t done enough green screening lately) but it is like trying to swim in honey. I am much more experienced with After Effects and it is a bit like swimming in honey too but I find the cache/ram playback better - maybe because I am yet to embrace that part of Fusion.
If 64 gig ram makes Fusion sing...
My expenditure review committee is staring to accept my need for renewal...
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Carsten Sellberg

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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 09, 2020 9:11 am

Roen Davis wrote: The AMD GPUs are rumoured to fall short in AI cores or something - worth worrying about?


Hi.

I wonder if it is Tensor Cores you are thinking about?

QUOTE: 'According to NVIDIA, the Turing Tensor cores significantly speed up matrix operations and are used for both deep learning training and inference operations, in addition to new neural graphics functions'
From: www.hardwarezone.com.sg › rt-cores-and-tensor-cores

I will suggest we together look at, how Resolve uses it. There is one thread I still remember, and I am sure there a many others:

QUOTE Rohit Gupta: ' DaVinci Neural Engine which SpeedWarp is based on, and plenty of other algorithms introduce in v15/v16 are most optimised for Metal and CUDA. On Windows, you should get significantly faster renders than your Macbook with a modern NVIDIA GPU, like the RTX or Volta series which have Tensor cores.'

But we are lucky. We have an alternative the nVidea Titan RTX with 24GB of vRam.

But both the Radeon VII and Titan RTX uses the PCIe ver 3.0 Interfaces. And I expect the coming AMD 'High End' Navi to use the PCIe ver 4.0 Interface. I haven't seen any rumors for the nVidea Ampere, but I expect them to use the PCIe ver 4.0 Interface tu. The PCIe ver 4.0 Interface just have the double speed of the current PCIe ver 3.0 Interfaces.
And will really speed things as HBCC ( High Bandwidth Cache Controller ) up.

Regards Carsten.
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Re: The dream (budget) 8K system?

PostThu Apr 09, 2020 7:30 pm

Roen Davis wrote:I appreciate the recommendations from Carsten and Misha!
I think Misha has done me a shopping list once before. Thank you.
The AMD GPUs are rumoured to fall short in AI cores or something - worth worrying about?
And Fusion - I find Fusion very slow to respond. I have been really impressed with some of the results. It has good cushioning on moves and the Deltakey with Clean plate is really good too - wispy hair worries a thing of the past! (Maybe I just haven’t done enough green screening lately) but it is like trying to swim in honey. I am much more experienced with After Effects and it is a bit like swimming in honey too but I find the cache/ram playback better - maybe because I am yet to embrace that part of Fusion.
If 64 gig ram makes Fusion sing...
My expenditure review committee is staring to accept my need for renewal...


Their is no such thing as AI cores, their are a lot of instructions used for AI with GPU's (INT4, INT8, BF16, FP16, FP32, FP64, etc..). Davinci resolve uses FP32 and the Radeon VII is pretty good in this as pointed out here https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/DaVinci-Resolve-15-AMD-Radeon-VII-16GB-Performance-1382/, when you do a lot of effect (TNR, etc...) the super fast VRAM (1.024 TeraBytes/second) is very beneficial. The nice thing about adobe software is, that it's far behind in making use of the GPU (i.o.w. almost any GPU will do, Adobe won't use it anyway, they just ad new features and bugs).
32 gig ram makes Fusion work, 64 gig's makes it better and 128 gig's makes it sing.

Pick whatever you like, or nothing at all, that's up to you.

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