Time to go back to FCPX

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dariobigi

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 2:14 pm

Uli Plank wrote:A G5? Last time I've seen one was in the PowerMac.
Terminology for Gen 5 of their build. Not a corollary for a specific piece of hardware. They’re not stupid and would use older technology when they’ve already used something more recent. Your Apple only vernacular/viewpoint is showing.
Consider widening you view and research outside of Apple only marketing. That’s how I learned about the pros (and cons) of owning a PC. In the end, for a bigger budget purchase, I have to differ to practical over emotional choices.
I always try, (try being a key factor) to be objective and push myself to do or try something that is slightly uncomfortable to expand my knowledge. I don’t think there’s growth without some growing pains. That’s why they’re calling growing pains.


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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 2:50 pm

I can't speak to the merits of DVR as an editor since 100% of my paid work is on Avid and I don't edit on it, but Resolve is increasingly important in my workflows for other reasons. A lot of these prosumer 'best editing software', articles presuppose that your NLE is a choice. It's a bit like a skilled machinist talking about the best lathe to work on, it's often irrelevant - they work on the one the factory has. If I didn't choose to use Avid, I would get no work. It helps that muscle memory and familiarity have made it very comfortable for me but that's the way it is.

I'm absolutely sure you can edit very well in DVR but I think it's the weakest link in the whole software. The speed editor and fast edit page particularly seem to hark back to gallery tv edit suites of the 80s/90s which is where I suspect Grant Petty drew his inspiration from. Totally irrelevant and useless to what I and most broadcast editors in the UK do. I just don't think they understand editing needs as fully as in the other areas. Though that is not to say that will not change.

As I said although 100% of my paid work is on Avid, I use DVR Studio with it for roundtripping. In other words no client specifically asks, or pays for it, but it helps my workflow so much that I throw it in. I abandoned colour correction in Symphony since it has been left way behind and is a poor shadow of DVR, and I abandoned Pro Tools in favour of Fairlight some time ago - even though it's not perfect, it does so much more than PT for so much less. With 17 there finally seems to be a way to stay completely in DVR now once an AAF is sent there without roundtripping, with the AS-11 Mainconcept plugin. This is why Avid and DVR work hand in hand essentially for me and I could no more think of dumping either, at the moment, because of the reasons I outlined above.

I'll just add in closing, before you fellas jump down my neck, I speak as an offline/online editor only - not a cameraman, not a filmmaker, just a working pro editor. In the UK I have not seen one single job post for an editor to work on DVR - Quite a bit now for Premiere, some FCPX, mainly Avid - even during lockdown and even though you can happily offline in the free Resolve. If I was BMD I would want to know why that is.
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Dhaylen

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 4:21 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
I'll just add in closing, before you fellas jump down my neck, I speak as an offline/online editor only - not a cameraman, not a filmmaker, just a working pro editor. In the UK I have not seen one single job post for an editor to work on DVR - Quite a bit now for Premiere, some FCPX, mainly Avid - even during lockdown and even though you can happily offline in the free Resolve. If I was BMD I would want to know why that is.


Probably the reason you haven't seen any job listings for Resolve is for the same reason that the whole youtube generation either uses FinalCut or Premiere.
("Avid - what's that?" - forget about names like "Smoke - does it still exist?", etc) lol!

At the end of the day - businesses, tend to go with what is 'known'/'popular'.
(And what the kids learn - Adobe/Autodesk have this covered.) ;)

I remember when Avid was a turn key system and cost about $100k to get into. :p
Then came along Apple Final Cut - which blew it out of the water and made the whole industry re-think things.
(That and a Canon Xl-1 by your side - but whose kidding, it was only 25mb and you would really want DVCPRO 50 or Sony if you were doing Chroma work)

Resolve hasn't reached that critical point that Apple did with Avid - I believe that is mainly due to the extreme price difference between the two... yes, Resolve is 'free', and even then is 'cheap' - but the gap just isn't there for a 'mass exodus'...

(traction is growing, and Resolve is only getting better... so we may see trends changing.)

At the end of the day, if you can edit, its pretty easy going between NLE's.
For me the trick is going from AE to Fusion. :p
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dariobigi

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 4:42 pm

I wouldn’t jump down anyone’s neck. Well stated opinion with context is always worth considering.

To add context to my possible answer to you question, I listen to a lot of social science podcasts about how we think and why. (Hidden Brain from NPR.org)

People have comfort levels, don’t like uncertainty, seek reinforcement of existing beliefs, can be lazy and so on for many facets and factors in their lives.
Many times we,they,I, have been forced to change. Myself needing to upgrade my computer and wanting to maximize my dollar. Others needing to make changes in life during a pandemic.
I know someone who still tries to use FCP7 due to comfort.
I feel a majority of people don’t “lean into change” as a primary response. (To possibly answer your query)

I have been hearing more and more of people using DR for Editoral.
Like all things, a tipping point will happen. Like to Avid from Grass Valley. From FCP7 to Avid. To PPro from FCP7/X. Those all took time.

BMD’s vision, dedication, mostly intelligent decisions and company culture of listening and incorporating (well stated) user feedback have driven massive changes in 10 years (since v.8). I believe they will only improve and become more competitive and desirable. It won’t be the right NLE for every job but it will become an even stronger contender for the top two spots.

For the record, I started on a Sony RM 450 controller and have worked on every linear and NLE (except Sony Vegas). I’ve been on DR since v.8.
Avid is a solid stable workhorse for long form and networked environments.

Just my 2¢ and observations here in NYC from contact with Post Peeps nationally and globally.



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Dhaylen

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 5:19 pm

dariobigi wrote:
People have comfort levels, don’t like uncertainty, seek reinforcement of existing beliefs, can be lazy and so on for many facets and factors in their lives.
Many times we,they,I, have been forced to change. Myself needing to upgrade my computer and wanting to maximize my dollar.


Yep - to all the above... :)
I was a Mac user since 93', only had to use the PC at two job places - and swore I would never own a Windows machine myself...

The moons aligned and I now have two Windows 10 machines. :p
(My dad actually bought one for us when our Mac decided it didn't want to wake up after an update.) :p

Wont lie - it took a lot of getting used to... but now - wouldnt go back.
Mainly due to the fact I got into AI/programming, and game a ton as well on the side... so Nvidia is my personal choice... which Apple no longer supports.

* fun note on that... technically speaking, Apple will have Nvidia chips again, as Nvidia bought out ARM, so Apples 'custom' chips - 'Nvidia inside' lol!
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 8:26 pm

Dhaylen wrote:I remember when Avid was a turn key system and cost about $100k to get into. :p
Then came along Apple Final Cut - which blew it out of the water and made the whole industry re-think things.


Not in my world it didn't. And yes I remember the prices since I had 4 of em at one time. I built a post facility for a TV station in Southern Spain and when I got there, there was 1 FCP 7 seat and one Digibeta. I junked the FCP and installed a proper Avid/Pro Tools facility with Editshare server. This was the gear I later bought out. With Avid installed we went from a few hours per month throughput to regularly over a 100, simply because Avid was built to share projects, then as now. The BBC got rid of FCP7 too for that reason. Don't get me wrong it was a great single seat NLE in the DV days but networked sharing at big facilities was and is what it's all about with Broadcast editing.

Dhaylen wrote:At the end of the day, if you can edit, its pretty easy going between NLE's.
Yes you can but as I said, if the work and pay is on Avid, that is what you use. I don't bother with Premiere jobs or FCPX - I would have to if they became the norm. But jobs using those NLEs are below rate and largely non-broadcast.
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Dhaylen

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 8:55 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Dhaylen wrote:I remember when Avid was a turn key system and cost about $100k to get into. :p
Then came along Apple Final Cut - which blew it out of the water and made the whole industry re-think things.


Not in my world it didn't. And yes I remember the prices since I had 4 of em at one time. I built a post facility for a TV station in Southern Spain and when I got there, there was 1 FCP 7 seat and one Digibeta. I junked the FCP and installed a proper Avid/Pro Tools facility with Editshare server.

Dhaylen wrote:At the end of the day, if you can edit, its pretty easy going between NLE's.
Yes you can but as I said, if the work and pay is on Avid, that is what you use. I don't bother with Premiere jobs or FCPX - I would have to if they became the norm. But jobs using those NLEs are below rate and largely non-broadcast.


Edited:
* Ok, I see the misunderstanding - not sure how it happened, but it did.

Avid was around $100k pre-Final Cut Pro.
(Your post specifically says Final Cut 7 - that is a lot of time that passed by then, and yeah... Avid was cheap... that was my point, Final Cut shook the market up.)

Check the prices, but Flame/Inferno, etc. was about 300k for a turnkey system.
(They got cheaper afterwards too - well, subs now) :p

I was in Atlanta, built out some studios as well. ;)
Worked amongst a ton of broadcasters -
(We have CNN, Turner, and a ton of media companies supporting Coke, etc)

Saying that to say I clearly remember broadcast 'meetings' where older peeps who invested heavily in equipment were worried about the artist now having access to affordable equipment and an XL-1 (canon) - not that it mattered if you wanted Chroma key.

Final Cut Atlanta and LA groups - and people/companies switching was real.
Sorry it didnt take off in Spain or Europe - different place...

Again, not sure how you missed it, but timing is important before telling someone they are 'wrong'. ;)
My prices may be off some, but the point definitely is there...

Ill give a good date - 1997... now we are on the same page. ;)
(9GB harddrive array - not sure how many 9GBs were in the stack anymore - that you and I could not afford - let alone 4 avid stations.)

Take care!

p.s.
I will add this - after Apples fiasco of dumping Shake, etc. - Avid did rise their prices up a bit.
(Nowhere near the prices of 1997) ;)
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 9:43 pm

Dhaylen wrote:gain, not sure how you missed it, but timing is important before telling someone they are 'wrong'.
My prices may be off some, but the point definitely is there...


No Dhaylen I'm never said you were wrong, I said not in my world. Which is principally the UK market, admittedly not the be all end all but that is my world. I think you meant that FCP7 blew away Avid Xpress DV, which it did in a different prosumer context but turnkey Avid Media Composer was left unscathed, until more recent times.

The 100k prices were the 90's but the Avid Adrenaline systems we bought still cost 50K sterling and upwards in the 2000s.

I have been editing on Avid since 1992 but it was not until 10-15 years later that I actually could afford a system of my own. I'm sure we could compare notes about the old days :) Sorry for any misunderstanding that my post may have generated. All the best.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 10:05 pm

I remember choosing between media 100, discreet edit and a couple of european systems. Avid was out of the picture because there support was very expensive and we had bad experiences with them. We chose discrete edit with the matrox card running on an intergraph and it was a great but then it was sold to autodesk they canned it then came fcp and nailed the coffin. Not to mention the dot.com, 9-11 and 2008 crash nearly wiped us out. .

We never went fcp instead tried others we wound up with purple, liquid and cinegy extreme which where ok then change to premiere all the way up to dr 12.5 and have never looked back.

We, and then me never looked into fcp because we never liked apple's business model.. Apple ditched all their pro servers and hardware/software. Though we almost changed but then fcpX came out and it convinced us to stay away, Fcp has become a good editor but i don't want to be in their universe.


Ricardo Marty



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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 10:21 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Dhaylen wrote:gain, not sure how you missed it, but timing is important before telling someone they are 'wrong'.
My prices may be off some, but the point definitely is there...


I have been editing on Avid since 1992 but it was not until 10-15 years later that I actually could afford a system of my own. I'm sure we could compare notes about the old days :) Sorry for any misunderstanding that my post may have generated. All the best.


No problems, can easily happen - especially when discussing tech over 25+ year span. :)

Probably the best way to sum up the time frame would be:
Adobe & Autodesk, (practically), bought everyone out and rule through subs. lol!
(Seriously though - remember Avid SoftImage?
Autodesk swiped them up along with Maya and killed the competition in the 3d realm
) :p
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Dhaylen

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSat Mar 27, 2021 10:31 pm

ricardo marty wrote:* I remember choosing between media 100,

* then change to premiere all the way up to dr 12.5 and have never looked back.

We, and then me never looked into fcp because we never liked apple's business model.. Apple ditched all their pro servers and hardware/software.

Ricardo Marty


* Probably the best choice you made not going Media 100.
We had a producer (before I became one) who highly recommended it - we had nothing but grief with it, and ended up with Avid Symphony (I think it was - been awhile)

* Premiere - I have to admit, i was happy when Adobe 're-released' Premiere.
Back around 97' it was 'cool' to learn how to edit with, but no one would/could use it for broadcast...
It was a cute toy to play with... so when they went all Pro, I was pretty impressed.

Though at that time, I was already invested in Final Cut Pro (Had about 10k in a card alone that let us do real time Chroma key playback without render...)

So - coming back - its kinda odd (not bad) to see how much of a 'staple' it is for most people with PC's.
(Given its humble origins) :)

* Apple servers, dear God... forgot about it, but yes - I agree about the Apple universe.
Im just getting old and forgetting most of why I will not go back to Apple. (Dumping Shake is my summary for it now, when its a lot more - they were on a role, is all i remember, and it kinda... died)

At the end of the day, Im happy for Resolve - hopefully they will keep listening to feedback and make believers out of other editors by giving them what they need... They sold me on the whole ecosystem of 'one app to rule them all'... (What I always wanted Adobe to do back in the days)
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Tim Franks

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSun Mar 28, 2021 2:37 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:Yes you can but as I said, if the work and pay is on Avid, that is what you use. I don't bother with Premiere jobs or FCPX - I would have to if they became the norm. But jobs using those NLEs are below rate and largely non-broadcast.

Interesting, you should get booked for the result and not software you use. ;)

Dhaylen wrote:
* Apple servers, dear God... forgot about it, but yes - I agree about the Apple universe.
Im just getting old and forgetting most of why I will not go back to Apple. (Dumping Shake is my summary for it now, when its a lot more - they were on a role, is all i remember, and it kinda... died)


Well as mentioned in a different thread. Shake was purchased for the technology which is still be utilised in Apples software.
Looking at hardware side I think Apple has proven they defiantly still target the Pro market and how things are going we might see much bigger trend. Let's not forget Macs are still market for content creation.

Dropping the Xserver on the surface definitely was bummer. But with the end of the Xserver it was a easier consolidation into the existing enterprise network. It was around the same time when Snow Leopard was released with Microsoft Exchange support.
It was a given that Apple was never going to replace Linux or Windows servers. What other way to convince any IT department to deploy Macs with easy integration in existing infrastructure. So Apple dropping the Xserve seemed they where giving up on the enterprise. It was actually a bigger step in to dominate the enterprise with Macs for average users.

Also lets not forget it seems Microsoft is also phasing out their on premise solutions. I guess Cloud it is.

Since we already hijacked this thread... I was recently at a small VFX post house and noticed they where using Sonnet racks with Mac Minis and they where pretty convinced and they seemed to spit out the data pretty fast. They called it the Mad Rack Max. :lol:
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Dhaylen

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSun Mar 28, 2021 9:58 am

Tim Franks wrote:
Well as mentioned in a different thread. Shake was purchased for the technology which is still be utilised in Apples software.
Looking at hardware side I think Apple has proven they defiantly still target the Pro market and how things are going we might see much bigger trend. Let's not forget Macs are still market for content creation.

I was recently at a small VFX post house and noticed they where using Sonnet racks with Mac Minis and they where pretty convinced and they seemed to spit out the data pretty fast.


........................................
update:
note: Just to be certain, totally respect you [and other peoples] point of view who may have a good experience with various Apple products - also, I do not deny that there are aspects that may be good/better than others - below, Im merely addressing the 'mentality' that turned me away from Apple.
It's not just Shake - it was the whole momentum drop that 'turned me off'... :)

Thanks for the listen/read...
........................................

Some examples:

Hardware:
* Apple Pismo - [The first laptop to 'edit' DV video] ;)
- Swappable media bays and desktop GPU that could be swapped out [fully upgradeable machine]
vs.

Everything after... not to mention the 'trash can mac'
I know, they tried to redeem it with the cheese-grater mac lol!
[Again, its about momentum, and trust...]

Software:
- Aperature
[At the time, there was rumor they may even get a photoshop app]
- Shake
All the pros, at the time, were waiting for 'Apple Phenomenon' to replace Shake.
[Wouldnt be waiting for that if they actually put all the features into FCPro...]
- Color
[One may argue it all went into FCPRO - but, we see most people would use Resolve Color over FC]

* As mentioned, there was a lot of momentum
With iWeb, people were talking about a Dreamweaver competitor, etc.
... along with other potential apps - (I mean, Autodesk bought out SoftImage and Maya... Apple could have easily scooped up the latter - which, some hoped for at the time.)
But it was all around this time things begin to fizzle out.

At some point, Avid, etc. all lifted their prices on their software a bit, as Apple was no longer king of the Pro media line, nor a potential threat.

Now - this little list wont convince anyone... this is just my own journey, but add in there dumping NVIDIA - even if I wanted to love Final Cut... the line is hard drawn in the sand there.
1: AI/programming [Nvidia - for me, at least]
2: Gaming [Old, yeah - but I game like no tomorrow... and that is NVIDIA only]
3: Video... Nvidia - [those guys... yeah, wish they made their own computer... wait, they did have the Shield] :p

* apple customer service:
When I lived in Atlanta, easy to get to... but - some things never change.
They always have issues with their power adapters.

Remember the YO-Yo, clear adapters - real cool, you could see your wires burned out.
Yeah, recall - I went down and said I wanted it exchanged as its on recall, "nah, bruh - its good"
(Waving it in his face, showing the burned wire) - "uh, ok... bruh, guess I will give you a new one"
* surprised by this customer experience.

Then they updated it! With... opaque white adapters - (transparency is not good)
... and people still had issues and do have issues from laptops to ipads with Apple.

Last but not least - upgradability... that flip from fully upgradeable to [we have to replace the batter] = stingy, and not liking it. [i realize many are fine]

The whole point of this... was to say I agree with the former poster...
ITs not that things are 'bad' - they may be actually REALLY good in some areas... but its that whole eco-system/universe mentality they have... dont trust it. ;)

Here's hoping BlackMagic keeps up the good work.

***
Just saw, in another thread, BRAW isnt supported in FinalCut Pro???
Anyway... [guess I shouldn't be suprised at this point]
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSun Mar 28, 2021 12:45 pm

fiveshorts wrote:Thanks for all the demeaning and insulting and ill-informed responses. Had no idea there were so many self-righteous contributors here.



I think you get what you put out in this case.

I'm not sure people, in general, understand what they are asking their hardware and software to do..., there are endless configurations of hardware that can result in small variances that can make any editing software unstable, and that's just facts. In some cases, your Resolve editing experience can be very unique so the end result is to declare Resolve is "No Bueno for serious work".

Apple optimizes their software like FCP for their computers and then will NOT give Resolve the same optimization support..., this is common knowledge. The Op has invested in BM cameras so why would they expect the Resolve experience to be as stable as a native OSX application?

Apple for the most part gave up on pro editors (Remember FCP7 ?? Even late-night talk show hosts talked about that! ANd now IMO they just sell overpriced hardware for a huge profit margin) Editors who still MACs have a big chip on their shoulders. I get it. It appears the OP is into music production so of course he is a Mac guy and looks down on PCs that are a better overall value.

Today many new filmmakers and editors want their choice of tools to be perfect and do everything for them or even better, they think because it doesn't work for them it doesn't work for anyone so why would YOU use it.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostSun Mar 28, 2021 3:07 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:I'm absolutely sure you can edit very well in DVR but I think it's the weakest link in the whole software. The speed editor and fast edit page particularly seem to hark back to gallery tv edit suites of the 80s/90s which is where I suspect Grant Petty drew his inspiration from. Totally irrelevant and useless to what I and most broadcast editors in the UK do. I just don't think they understand editing needs as fully as in the other areas. Though that is not to say that will not change.


Here's another vote for wishing the Cut page had never happened, and that all the development had gone instead into perfecting Edit, which at the moment is workable but also something of a welter of functions being more cumbersome than they should be and many small impediments. Given the speed of development, this is to be expected and Cut appears to have its fans, but here's wishing....

And all this comes before there could be any thought to introducing the kind of innovations Apple brought to FCPX. In seeking to establish an industry-standard product, BMD wouldn't seem to have that kind of freedom. Unlike Apple, it's main business isn't telephones and related services.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 pm

Dhaylen wrote:........................................
update:
note: Just to be certain, totally respect you [and other peoples] point of view who may have a good experience with various Apple products - also, I do not deny that there are aspects that may be good/better than others - below, Im merely addressing the 'mentality' that turned me away from Apple.
It's not just Shake - it was the whole momentum drop that 'turned me off'... :)

Thanks for the listen/read...
........................................


Yes Apple has dropped application in the past and will do so in the future, we just can't forget that Apple is still a business and make decisions what is in their interest. Like any other Company.
Remember Adobe dropping Premiere on the OSX platform and many many other applications.
BlackMagic Design is also starting to migrate their Application in one package. How I often I heard Fusion users complaining about blotted software .And I could see a subscription model coming soon.

Not sure how iWeb was a competitor to Dreamweaver. The way websites are designed today there is no need for an application for the level iWeb was presented. This was a trend back then and this is one example how the faith was decided on other applications.

The NVIDIA subject is very deep subject. I recall talking to one of the adobe After Effects developers at their after party during the NAB back in 2010.
Issues was more quality control... :?

You will find many threads with no BRAW support as no ProResRAW support in Resolve. :mrgreen:

Cheers ;)
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 1:02 pm

Here's another vote for wishing the Cut page had never happened, and that all the development had gone instead into perfecting Edit, which at the moment is workable but also something of a welter of functions being more cumbersome than they should be and many small impediments. Given the speed of development, this is to be expected and Cut appears to have its fans, but here's wishing....


Having just switched to Resolve from FCP I can happily say "I love the cut page!" It makes more sense if you have the speed editor of course, but its magnetic time-line feels familiar and I like how it eases you into editing which is something that always fills me with dread, initially.
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joe12south

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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 3:38 pm

I made the switch to Resolve from FCPX a little over 2 years ago. While being able to work end-to-end in one system is the right choice for me, I think many here are dismissing the reality that FCPX "just works" - effortlessly - in a way that Resolve, or any other NLE on any other system, simply does not.

A 4K project that doesn't cause a relatively old MacBook Pro to break a sweat with FCPX, is brought to its knees by Resolve - even with all the usual workarounds to squeeze as much performance as possible. With Resolve I have to use a beefy desktop workstation with 2 GPUs to get a LESS smooth editing experience than FCPX on that ol' MacBook.

FCPX engineers likely have access to under the hood knowledge that no 3rd party developer does.

PS. I was one of the poor unfortunate souls that invested in the Media 100 back in the day. There should be a trigger warning before mentioning that thing!
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 4:04 pm

joe12south wrote:A 4K project that doesn't cause a relatively old MacBook Pro to break a sweat with FCPX, is brought to its knees by Resolve - even with all the usual workarounds to squeeze as much performance as possible. With Resolve I have to use a beefy desktop workstation with 2 GPUs to get a LESS smooth editing experience than FCPX on that ol' MacBook.


Are you able to share details? Were you working in Full Quality in FCPX? Also, have you compared the recent versions of Resolve?
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 7:08 pm

Rohit Gupta wrote:
joe12south wrote:A 4K project that doesn't cause a relatively old MacBook Pro to break a sweat with FCPX, is brought to its knees by Resolve - even with all the usual workarounds to squeeze as much performance as possible. With Resolve I have to use a beefy desktop workstation with 2 GPUs to get a LESS smooth editing experience than FCPX on that ol' MacBook.


Are you able to share details? Were you working in Full Quality in FCPX? Also, have you compared the recent versions of Resolve?

I haven't done a comparison between the most recent FCPX and Resolve 17 because I'm wholly invested in Resolve at this point and to switch back and go through round-tripping would be too painful. I don't think I've opened FCPX in over a year.

That being the case, I don't think I can give you meaningful specifics to test...but I can tell you that much of it is related to UI responsiveness, not actual processing performance.

As an example, it is quite common for Resolve operations to make the app "beachball" (sign of a locked UI thread) with no warning. These instances are usually for very brief periods of time...seconds...but they do create micro-interruptions and leave the user with the perception that the whole app could come down at any time. By comparison, it's hard to do anything in FCPX to make the actual UI unresponsive. It just seems to handle internal process/thread management better.

I should put my money where my mouth is, though, and re-test current versions with some tough footage like 8K RAW from the R5. When I do, I'll post back here.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 8:00 pm

joe12south wrote:That being the case, I don't think I can give you meaningful specifics to test...but I can tell you that much of it is related to UI responsiveness, not actual processing performance.

As an example, it is quite common for Resolve operations to make the app "beachball" (sign of a locked UI thread) with no warning. These instances are usually for very brief periods of time...seconds...but they do create micro-interruptions and leave the user with the perception that the whole app could come down at any time.


There are functions I wish were snappier on Resolve, like switching between timelines via tabs, but I don't see anything like this on 9-year old PC hardware. Yours is not the first report of such behavior, but it's not "normal". On a PC you'd look to video drivers or conflicts between two GPU cards.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 10:10 pm

[quote=There are functions I wish were snappier on Resolve, like switching between timelines via tabs, but I don't see anything like this on 9-year old PC hardware. Yours is not the first report of such behavior, but it's not "normal". On a PC you'd look to video drivers or conflicts between two GPU cards.[/quote]


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Time to go back to FCPX

PostWed Apr 07, 2021 10:26 pm

It’s certainly “normal” on any Mac other than maybe a 10k iMac Pro or $20k+ MacPro.

I too made a “commitment “ to Resolve, as I was (am still) extremely happy that I committed to their hardware over the years.

I then committed to learning it properly and accepting that it would have idiosyncrasies and flaws as all paradigms do. I invested in the Editor keyboard, then sold it after a couple of months, then bought the Speed Editor, which is much better.

I went through the entire v17 beta program, holding faith that it’s performance was symptomatic of the major upgrade process. But the full release of 17.1.1 is still no better. Each install was clean, not an update. My machine is used for nothing else.

I can take a single group of 4K ProRes 422 clips with audio, open them in each app (FCPX latest and Resolve latest) and even simple scrubbing and playback is fundamentally better in FCPX. FCPX is butter smooth and effortless. Resolve I have to immediately drop to half res in the timeline playback and even optimize to half size or LT to get close. This is all before the work begins.

And this is on a 2020 iMac i9 with 32gb ram and clean SSDs running over thunderbolt 3 with short, certified TB3 cables.

I’ve been doing this a long time. And despite my gripes, I’m no troll. I actually WANT Resolve to be good. I switched because I was already roundtripping (with difficulty) to Color and to Logic.

It seems my only choice now is to abandon Macs and to endure the virus-infested, grotesque world of Windows and the build-your-own (cross your fingers) PC. A sad prospect I’ve managed to avoid for my whole career.

Ironic and suspicious that it’s Resolve that Apple uses to demo on its site more than their own FCPX.

Tough times.


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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 7:12 am

fiveshorts wrote:
It seems my only choice now is to abandon Macs and to endure the virus-infested, grotesque world of Windows and the build-your-own (cross your fingers) PC. A sad prospect I’ve managed to avoid for my whole career.

Ironic and suspicious that it’s Resolve that Apple uses to demo on its site more than their own FCPX.

Tough times.


Used Apple (professionally) from 93' until a few years back...
(owned a lot of shares for many years as well - point is... was a believer)

Few years ago, got my first PC with windows 10...
Now have my second, both with nice juicy NVIDIA cards...

I will NEVER buy another apple computer again.
Unless they put NVIDIA back in - I may consider... unlikely.

The whole Windows Virus meme is 'old' - I mean, you mentioned that you dont do anything with your mac but edit - so there is like "0%" you would get a virus. :p

The whole Mac interface is better - well, look at iOS after Steve passed away to see they copied Android to get a 'bigger' market of Android users who wanted that look on their new iOS devices. (Which they bought to 'look cool' as Apple was going main stream)

Point is... Apple - not the same company... I mean, they still are over priced.
I remember my Apple laptops - (always pro top end) were crap compared to PC laptops...
They put mediocre parts in there at best, and you can no longer truly customize it like with the Pismo (thats back in 99)

I mean, Im sure they still 'get some things 'right' - some of you are really still on about Final Cut being better - and I wont argue its not, but - just not worth it.

Programming with Python/C++, art/video, GAMING - all on my sweet NVIDA chip -

* I know exactly what its like to be an Apple fan boy and to toss comments out about Windows... but you know - its not necessarily the issue many make it out to be.

Sure, I know my mother-in-law and neighbor got viruses on their PCs and probably would have been protected on their ipad, etc - but they literally think that everything that can be clicked on must be.
Again, you wont have to worry about that, Im sure... ;)

All the best - and yeah, if they are advertising Resolve that is funny...
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 11:44 am

fiveshorts wrote:It’s certainly “normal” on any Mac other than maybe a 10k iMac Pro or $20k+ MacPro.

I too made a “commitment “ to Resolve, as I was (am still) extremely happy that I committed to their hardware over the years.

I then committed to learning it properly and accepting that it would have idiosyncrasies and flaws as all paradigms do. I invested in the Editor keyboard, then sold it after a couple of months, then bought the Speed Editor, which is much better.

I went through the entire v17 beta program, holding faith that it’s performance was symptomatic of the major upgrade process. But the full release of 17.1.1 is still no better. Each install was clean, not an update. My machine is used for nothing else.

I can take a single group of 4K ProRes 422 clips with audio, open them in each app (FCPX latest and Resolve latest) and even simple scrubbing and playback is fundamentally better in FCPX. FCPX is butter smooth and effortless. Resolve I have to immediately drop to half res in the timeline playback and even optimize to half size or LT to get close. This is all before the work begins.

And this is on a 2020 iMac i9 with 32gb ram and clean SSDs running over thunderbolt 3 with short, certified TB3 cables.

I’ve been doing this a long time. And despite my gripes, I’m no troll. I actually WANT Resolve to be good. I switched because I was already roundtripping (with difficulty) to Color and to Logic.

It seems my only choice now is to abandon Macs and to endure the virus-infested, grotesque world of Windows and the build-your-own (cross your fingers) PC. A sad prospect I’ve managed to avoid for my whole career.

Ironic and suspicious that it’s Resolve that Apple uses to demo on its site more than their own FCPX.

Tough times.


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I use both, Mac and win, from ... 1991 (yes I’m old)
I would remember to you that are many pro builder for windows workstation from hp to Boxx which is focalized to pro workstation for windows from since 25 years.
I suggest you to NEVER build your pc, it’s not a simple put together piece and hope, you should study very well architecture to build a good workstation to have good performance.
Windows is not hell (sometimes) but if you work like pro you build and use like pro is not a bad system (like is not a good system... But never exist perfect work machine).


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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 12:33 pm

i can't speak for more recent mac's, but running hp workstations alongside, and now exclusively, i've found them to be more reliable than i remember my macs being.

of course there are fanboys on both sides, extolling the praises of their respective boxes, whilst damning the others... nothing is ever going to change that. however, if you buy a stock 'pro' system, and use it exclusively as an nle, it's highly unlikely you'll ever have hardware or virus problems, unless of course, you go looking for them ;-)

i've always been of a mind that as soon as you start squeezing any system to get that 'little bit' extra out of it, you generally lose it to troubleshooting...
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 1:27 pm

John Paines wrote:
joe12south wrote:That being the case, I don't think I can give you meaningful specifics to test...but I can tell you that much of it is related to UI responsiveness, not actual processing performance.

As an example, it is quite common for Resolve operations to make the app "beachball" (sign of a locked UI thread) with no warning. These instances are usually for very brief periods of time...seconds...but they do create micro-interruptions and leave the user with the perception that the whole app could come down at any time.


There are functions I wish were snappier on Resolve, like switching between timelines via tabs, but I don't see anything like this on 9-year old PC hardware. Yours is not the first report of such behavior, but it's not "normal". On a PC you'd look to video drivers or conflicts between two GPU cards.

The items I'm talking about aren't "glitches"...they are the result of how the app has been developed. A great example is backing-up a database: Instead of any indication that a lengthy process that can't be interrupted is in progress (of which there are several ways to indicate, even if the length of time is "indeterminate") the UI simply locks. Is it working, is it crashed? Who knows. How long will it take? Who knows.

That's an obvious, extreme example, but the UI is littered with minor examples. Resolve COULD feel a lot more smooth and solid if the dev team would make a pass through it protecting the UI thread and giving the user more indication when something heavy needs to happen.

Then there are the weird UI decisions that thumb their nose at any OS's patterns. Click and drag over multiple nodes on the Color page and copy. Are multiple nodes copied? Nope. Just one.

I could go on and on, but the net result is that Resolve offers up a lot more "friction" than FCPX. When you spend 8-16 hours a day in an app, these micro-agressions add up.

To put it yet another way: I use Resolve because I NEED to. I used FCPX because I WANTED to.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 pm

John Paines wrote:
joe12south wrote:The items I'm talking about aren't "glitches"...they are the result of how the app has been developed.


I'm not here to defend the product, I have my own quarrels with it, but you're the guy who was complaining about "beachballs".... How you concluded that this behavior, which to the best of my knowledge is not the norm, "even on Macs", is the result of "how the app has been developed", I don't know. I guess it's true in the literal sense -- whatever goes wrong is self-evidently "how the app has been developed", but you seem to mean something bigger and grander than that, based on limited personal experience and an imperfect grasp of how things work, blame who you will for the confusion.

I conclude it because I've been doing software development for 30 plus years, including two stints as a CTO. I've been an Apple Developer since System 6.

When an application beachballs, but is actually still working, that is almost always because of poor threading. A heavy task has been left on the same thread as the UI. It's not a "bug", it's a design choice. (Or the lack thereof.) If the operation can still cause the app to become temporarily unresponsive or for some other reason you need to not allow the user to interact while something completes, then it is good form to inform the user of as much, and MacOS guidelines provide several standard ways to do this. To put it more simply, Resolve still has room for optimization.

I can't say that reconnecting a database ever caused me any grief, it never occurred to me to try to connect to the Projects folder, but there's no fighting against a user's experience. If it happened to you, it would doubtless happen to others. OTOH, it's an application which assumes a certain, well, "application".

Because an app is for "pros" is no excuse for a bad user interface. It is not reasonable to expect an end user to both remember the name of a db and know to choose the parent of the parent of the parent of the parent of the folder that contains the db, not the db.[/quote]

Meanwhile, your generalities don't help the developers.

I gave a very specific, very common example: backing-up a db. How is that not helpful? if someone from the dev team wants to contact me and work on these issues, I'd be happy to spend the time to list all of the other times the app behaves similarly.
I wouldn't dispute that there are many "microagressions" in a day's work, needless small frustrations, but this is the way of the world....

Micro-aggressions are a term of art in the UI discipline. Resolve is full of them, and someone on the team should be devoted to excising them. When the same action is needlessly different on the edit page vs the color page vs the fusion page because that's how the inherited code works, not because it's what's best for the user...that's a micro-aggression. That's friction. When an app needlessly deviates from the standards of the OS it is running on, that's a micro-aggression. They are tiny cues that tell the end user that the software doesn't care enough about their experience. And these are the sort of things that when Apple is on their game, they excel at eliminating.

You can't have it all, unfortunately. Or until that happy date when you can....

Well, you can get close. You just have to want to.

All this said, I am truly thankful for all of the hard work that the Resolve team does, and I rarely hesitate to recommend it to someone starting out or looking to switch. When I critique the app, I do so with the hopes to make it better, not to tear it down.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 4:24 pm

Joe, you may have noticed, I took down my post, before you responded to it -- on the delayed conviction that these discussions are more apt to bring out the pontifical in everyone, rather than help in actual product development.

What's useful, in my view, is making a list of your discontents. And then wait for half the regulars here to tell you how wrong you are.

The developers can probably manage without the larger pronouncements, views on software design, etc.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 5:14 pm

John Paines wrote:Joe, you may have noticed, I took down my post, before you responded to it -- on the delayed conviction that these discussions are more apt to bring out the pontifical in everyone, rather than help in actual product development.

What's useful, in my view, is making a list of your discontents. And then wait for half the regulars here to tell you how wrong you are.

The developers can probably manage without the larger pronouncements, views on software design, etc.

It's really easy for anyone to ignore any of this if they aren't interested. ;)
Hardcore developers tend to focus on under-the-hood performance that they can measure, not perceived performance which is difficult to quantify. It's not a bad thing for a more "product" or UI focused voice to chime in beyond the usual bug reports & feature requests.

I think this discussion is germane because the Resolve team clearly cares about how Resolve performs compared to FCPX, and rightfully takes pride in the great strides they've made. But for whatever reason, they haven't yet addressed many of these "soft" issues that make FCPX *feel* more performant.
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 7:39 pm

Seriously though - remember Avid SoftImage?
Autodesk swiped them up along with Maya and killed the competition in the 3d realm


I remember when Softimage was not avid and you needed a full blown Silicon graphic Onyx just to start that sucker!!!!

I loved softimage and the little Eddie compositor....
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostThu Apr 08, 2021 8:17 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:
Seriously though - remember Avid SoftImage?
Autodesk swiped them up along with Maya and killed the competition in the 3d realm


I remember when Softimage was not avid and you needed a full blown Silicon graphic Onyx just to start that sucker!!!!

I loved softimage and the little Eddie compositor....

Ah SGI, good old days.
Remembering the coffee table Onyx 2 and PowerAnimator and Maya.
Isn’t Google now where SGI HQ used to be?

BTT, I was wondering what Hardware we are taking, cause from my experience FCPX performs much smoother then DaVinci. 8-)
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 3:30 am

Oh, the granddads having a chat? Count me in. Actually, Microsoft first laid their hand on Softimage just to prove you can do 3D on a PC. Once they had shown that to the public, they sold it to Avid, who killed it off slowly and painfully. I loved it on SGI (Eddie too).
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 4:10 am

Uli Plank wrote:Oh, the granddads having a chat? Count me in..


time to go back to sony bve 3000...
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Re: Time to go back to FCPX

PostFri Apr 09, 2021 4:38 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:If I didn't choose to use Avid, I would get no work. It helps that muscle memory and familiarity have made it very comfortable for me but that's the way it is.


So true, thank you for pointing that out.
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