uncompressed format question: advice please

brand new to DR, having come from a mac system to a pc system.

i'm usually supplied with prores or proreshq (an example of the format follows at the end of this post) and am asked to deliver in both uncompressed and prores. my thinking is that, to meet these requirements now, i should export from DR as uncompressed and make a prores copy from that in a third party, probably apple, application. the uncompressed would, in this case serve as both intermediate (to make the prores) and deliverable (to meet the request for uncompressed).

the prores shouldn't be a problem. my question comes from observing the MANY uncompressed choices i have, even in the free DR version i'm learning on. which one is most appropriate for this scenario? i used to pretty much just have apple uncompressed 10 bit as a choice. now it seems there are many more.

thanks. i appreciate and look forward to any help,
g

here's the file info:

Code: Select all

Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   0000.00 (qt  )
File size                                : 78.2 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 22 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 136 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2017-10-22 19:12:53
Tagged date                              : UTC 2017-10-22 23:49:16
Writing application                      : FFmbc 0.7
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422
Codec ID                                 : apcn
Duration                                 : 1 h 22 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 133 Mb/s
Width                                    : 2 048 pixels
Height                                   : 1 152 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.358
Stream size                              : 76.9 GiB (98%)
Writing library                          : Apple
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2017-10-22 23:49:16
Tagged date                              : UTC 2017-10-22 23:49:16
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : in24
Duration                                 : 1 h 22 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 1.33 GiB (2%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2017-10-22 19:12:53
Tagged date                              : UTC 2017-10-22 23:49:16

Why would you want to use an uncompressed format, are you sure that is what is required?
It really does not make any sense.

Probably the easiest would be to export using some DNxHx variety.

yep. uncompressed and prores. those are the things we deliver.

thanks,
g

yep. uncompressed and prores. those are the things we deliver.

Wow, that's about one terabyte for a video that has a bitrate of only 136Mbps All-Intra!

But I suppose the customer is always right!

Uncompressed RGB 10 bit will be highest quality (and also largest file).

[Peter Chamberlain]

Actually 16bit floating point EXR is the premium format but why not just ask the customer what he needs and what he plans to use it for?

It's quite common in the Pro market to use uncompressed and storage is cheap compared to production and post costs.

A common format would be 10 bit DPX. Industry standard world wide for well more than a decade.

thanks for all the info!

i was looking at "uncompressed yuv 422 10bit" and wrapping it in a quicktime container. thinking it sounded like the best match for the apple uncompressed 10bit i was getting out of final cut in the past. does that make sense? i was thinking that, since the prores is yuv, that would be an apropriate codec to match it but not sure about the color space of the apple uncompressed. i'd like to try to keep things consistent with what's been done in the past as i move forward with DR. if it's not possible that's another thing but, if it is, i'd like to try to keep things consistent.

thanks again,
g

Actually 16bit floating point EXR is the premium format but why not just ask the customer what he needs and what he plans to use it for?

It's quite common in the Pro market to use uncompressed and storage is cheap compared to production and post costs.

A common format would be 10 bit DPX. Industry standard world wide for well more than a decade.

Hello Peter, with this in mind - what would you recommend for the best least lossy workflow when delivering ProRes. As of now I render out of Resolve @ uncompressed RGB 10-bit and then go to ProRes in media encoder. This is fine for final delivery but lets say I want to send a shot to a VFX house and they request ProRes but I want to maintain the bit depth of the raw file (most shots I work with are 12-bit) so I would not want to go to uncompressed 10-bit before going to ProRes. Of course I can do EXR out of Resolve but in the remote age file size sometimes is more important. Any thoughts would be great, thank you.

Compress exr is the best, every time you di something to the file you lose some quality

Just bear in mind, as has been touched upon that chroma subsampling is a form of compression too, i.e 4:2:2. So for VFX, compositing, keying etc. a visually lossless (DNxHR, ProRes HQ or compressed EXR as Walter said etc.) intraframe compressed 4:4:4, aka RGB codec would be better than an uncompressed 4:2:2 codec for that work, for the same bit depth. As said, these days, EXR, DPX etc. 16 bit uncompressed non chroma subsampled outputs are the best of all worlds, if you have the space.

As said, these days, EXR, DPX etc. 16 bit uncompressed non chroma subsampled outputs are the best of all worlds, if you have the space.

Use lossless compression for exr-s, there is no reason to bloat the files just because. And depending on content, even lossy DWA compression can be good choice, for example if footage is very clean, denoised or some kind of graphics/animation.

Use lossless compression for exr-s, there is no reason to bloat the files just because. And depending on content, even lossy DWA compression can be good choice, for example if footage is very clean, denoised or some kind of graphics/animation.

Good advice Hendrik, since that is your work but I'm not the OP. I made no recommendation just that chroma subsampling is a form of compression too and echoed what is the ultimate output. So the compressed codecs you recommend are better than any uncompressed 4:2:2 codec, for that work.

i'm usually supplied with prores or proreshq (an example of the format follows at the end of this post) and am asked to deliver in both uncompressed and prores. my thinking is that, to meet these requirements now, i should export from DR as uncompressed and make a prores copy from that in a third party, probably apple, application. the uncompressed would, in this case serve as both intermediate (to make the prores) and deliverable (to meet the request for uncompressed).

I think you could go with a perceptually lossless format like DNxHR 444, and then use that as a mezzanine format to transcode to ProRes on a Mac. You're not going to see any kind of real difference -- even on scopes -- but I would keep a close eye on levels and make sure that there's no gamma or video/full data level issue.

Another potential uncompressed format would be DPX, which is pretty simple to work with, but the storage is enormous: DPX is about 10GB per minute, so a half hour of material would be 333GB (give or take). Also, some machines choke when trying to render uncompressed material, because it's very stressful on I/O. Smoke used to come out of my old Trashcan Mac whenever we had to deliver DPX, even running it at 5fps.

You could just rent or borrow a powerful Mac system and render it out directly on ProRes on that system. It might be worth a half-day rental, provided you can get a good deal or find somebody locally who would do it for you at a modest fee.

Good advice Hendrik, since that is your work but I'm not the OP. I made no recommendation just that chroma subsampling is a form of compression too and echoed what is the ultimate output. So the compressed codecs you recommend are better than any uncompressed 4:2:2 codec, for that work.

I simply added that lossless compressed exrs are better than uncompressed because exr decompression is pretty easy for any decent cpu, I agree with everything you said. Personally I frequently use dwa exrs for denoised plates, their size is comparable to jpeg sequences when dwaa level is 45 but with all exr benefits.

You need to ask more about this uncompressed or make "guesstimate" what they want.
If it's high end production going for further work then EXRs, DPX etc.
If it's less demanding production (and your master will be used to do some final delivery files for VOD etc.) then in many cases 10bit uncompressed YUV (v210, which is 4:2:2) in MOV is your best bet.
Other uncompressed option is mentioned 10bit RGB, which is the same as v210, but RGB based so 4:4:4.
If you are supplied with ProRes then anything 444 makes less sense as your source is already 4:2:2.

No probs Hendrik, I get you now What colourspace do you use for VFX normally (because I suppose that could be another crunch) or does it just depend on the final delivery format?

Andrew makes a valid point because re-reading this thread, the OP is talking about delivery formats that are mostly 4:2:2 (In TV, my world not features I should add, before I get pounced on ) . It was Scott who mentioned VFX delivery, where 4:4:4 is preferable.

Actually 16bit floating point EXR is the premium format but why not just ask the customer what he needs and what he plans to use it for?

It's quite common in the Pro market to use uncompressed and storage is cheap compared to production and post costs.

A common format would be 10 bit DPX. Industry standard world wide for well more than a decade.

All of this is true only for high-end productions and post work around compositing, grading etc.
Once you pass this stage most common format are intermediate codecs (with ProRes requested by far most often).
Fact that George is supplied ProRes as a start already suggest no need for EXRs or even DPX. Even v210 is bit pointless, but some places have strict workflows based on single formats for simplicity and reliability, so sometimes there is no choice.

No probs Hendrik, I get you now What colourspace do you use for VFX normally (because I suppose that could be another crunch) or does it just depend on the final delivery format?

Andrew makes a valid point because re-reading this thread, the OP is talking about delivery formats that are mostly 4:2:2 (In TV, my world not features I should add, before I get pounced on ) . It was Scott who mentioned VFX delivery, where 4:4:4 is preferable.

Depends on what the inputs are, but whatever it is, it should be linearized before stuffed into exr, because there is (although in practice rather theoretical) loss from storing log encoded data as floats. 16 bit half float can’t store 12bit integer log ”as-is” (straight int>float datatype conversion only) with all the precision due to how float precision works. In non-aces project exrs usually are in some kind of universal intermediate colorspace like linearized with srgb gamut or alexa wide gamut, for aces aces2065-1 (ap0 primaries and linear transfer function). Linearization isn’t always maybe the correct term, for example in case of purely display referred source footage like rec709 stuff, but ”straightening” is still beneficial for float storage.

For intermediate as video file, prores4444 or its xq variant beats any uncompressed video format in my opinion, I just don’t see the value in having a behemoth file with zero practical benefits. Dpx has the same problem, I don’t see it having any edge over exr-s, it is less flexible and produces bigger files in most cases, at best 10bit dpx can compare with 16bit exr. If client requests something specific it is another story ofcourse, then delivery is what was asked.

For intermediate as video file, prores4444 or its xq variant beats any uncompressed video format in my opinion, I just don’t see the value in having a behemoth file with zero practical benefits. Dpx has the same problem, I don’t see it having any edge over exr-s, it is less flexible and produces bigger files in most cases, at best 10bit dpx can compare with 16bit exr. If client requests something specific it is another story ofcourse, then delivery is what was asked.

I agree, just I would vote for XQ mode. 3-4x compression is golden ratio for me. Smaller yet preserving all what is really useful and needed. Rest of the bits is just useless noise anyway.