23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

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Annaël Beauchemin

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23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 10:04 pm

Hello!

I'm trying to find a way to export 23.976 pojects to 29.97 dropframe MXF OP1a 422 50mbit master files.

I can do this easily, but blindly by selecting 29.97 (3:2) and checking "Drop frame". If my file starts at 10:00:00;00, everything works fine.

Problem:
The problem is that I need to export broadcast with leaders before 10:00:00:00. Most of the time, they are just a bit more than 1 min so the program of the exported 29.97 MXF will NOT start exactly at 10:00:00;00, but at 10:00:00;02 because of dropframe timecode.

What I've tried:
- removing 2 frames from the leader in the 23.976 sequence so that the show starts at 10:00:00;00 once exported to 29.97 DF. Problem: The show now starts at 09:59:59;29 field 2.
- Nesting my 23.976 timeline in a 29.97 DF timeline. Problem: Resolve doesn't add a proper pulldown and I found no way of doing this.

Of course, I could export a 23.976 master and add pulldown/convert to MXF using Avid or Premiere, which is what I do now, but this workflow is slow.

Has anyone ever found a solution to this?

thanks
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Marc Wielage

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 11:07 pm

Start the show in black with a fade-up, and they'll never see it. Or build in a one-second piece of black prior to the start of the show (10:00:00:00). See if QC will accept that. It's a known issue with DF timecode.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 3:37 pm

Problem is not DF only, but also pulldown.
At 10th hour you should always get 10:00:00;00 as DF counting rule drops frames every minute, but not every 10th minute though.

In 23.976 project:
Start timeline at 09:58:30:02 and put main programme at 09:59:59:22
After export with pulldown you will get desired 10:00:00;00 DF start.
It's all about start TC vs. number of frames to programme start. Some specific combinations give desired result, other won't.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 5:49 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:Start the show in black with a fade-up, and they'll never see it. Or build in a one-second piece of black prior to the start of the show (10:00:00:00). See if QC will accept that. It's a known issue with DF timecode.


The thing is that I can't really decide if the show starts with a fade-in or not. Also, some broadcasters specs ask that the pulldown pattern begins at 10:00:00;00 (sometimes referred as the "A" frame) so that the first frame is always progressive. The way I've been doing it all those years with Avid works fine since Avid's pulldown pattern follows that logic.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Try not going over 1 minute for extra bits in-front (so DF engine doesn't kick yet).


Once again, I have to follow specs, and if the broadcaster asks for more than a minute of leaders (I know, pretty strange in those days of digital file masters...), I am forced to do it.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:In 23.976 project:
Start timeline TC at 09:59:30:01 and put your main programme at 10:00:00:01.
Once you export with pulldown you will get main programme starting at 10:00:00;00 DF TC.


I'm not sure why +1 frame would be the way to go. Drop frame TC always skip 2, no?

Anyway I'll try this and report back.

Thanks!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 7:38 pm

I edited my first post, so your quotes are "old" :)
There is something strange in Resolve.
It translates start TC from 24 frames TC to 30 frames DF, but it all seems to bee wrong.

If you use start of 09:58:00:00 then in final DF file this shows up as 09:57:59;28 (as there is no 09:58:00;00 DF). Looks like it freaks out as if anything this should be rather 09:58:00;02.

There is even worse case if you use 09:57:30:00 as start TC. Then in final DF file it shows it as 59:57:30;01. Why, if 09:57:30;00 is perfectly valid DF timecode and 00 should translate to 00 frame?

Then 09:58:30:00 ends as 09:58:30:00 DF. Go figure :)
Then 09:56:30:00 ends as 09:56:29:29 DF. WTF?

10:00:00:00 translates properly to 10:00:00;00 DF (as there is no DF correction in this case I guess).

24 base Strat TC vs. 30 DF final (just frames bit):
01=01 DF,
02=01 DF
03=02 DF
04=03 DF
05=04 DF
07=08 DF
10=11 DF
...
13=14 DF
14=16 DF
15=17 DF
...
22=26 DF
23=27 DF

Looks like pulldown (or DF) is messing with it. For me it looks very broken (Resolve 17.3 build 14).

Time to try 17.3.1 :D
update: same problem. Once DF flag is off then things seems to look correct.

So in current Resolve state:
In 23.976 project:
Start timeline at 09:58:30:02 and put main programme at 09:59:59:22
After export with pulldown you will get desired 10:00:00;00 DF start.
Don't ask why though :lol:
Best to report to BM.
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Glenn Sakatch

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostSun Sep 19, 2021 3:17 pm

I do this all the time, with no issues.

In a 23.976 project, output a 23.976 master file of your show.
Bring that version back into the same project.
Create a new sequence, changing the sequence settings to 29.97 df
drop your bars at (in my case) 9:59:30:00, slate at 9:59:45:00, and show start at 10:00:00:00
Go to delivery page and create your render.

Create a 29.97 project to check your file, and you should see your show start at 10 hours and be drop frame.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostSun Sep 19, 2021 4:47 pm

Yes, but this is exporting two times.
There is no need for it. You can do it directly from the 23.976 original project- there are just bugs in Resolve, which make it more difficult than it should be.
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm

Glenn Sakatch wrote:I do this all the time, with no issues.

In a 23.976 project, output a 23.976 master file of your show.
Bring that version back into the same project.
Create a new sequence, changing the sequence settings to 29.97 df
drop your bars at (in my case) 9:59:30:00, slate at 9:59:45:00, and show start at 10:00:00:00
Go to delivery page and create your render.

Create a 29.97 project to check your file, and you should see your show start at 10 hours and be drop frame.


So you are able to add a proper 3:2 pulldown on the 23.976 clip in the 29.97 timeline? How to you do that?
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:So in current Resolve state:
In 23.976 project:
Start timeline at 09:58:30:02 and put main programme at 09:59:59:22
After export with pulldown you will get desired 10:00:00;00 DF start.
Don't ask why though :lol:
Best to report to BM.


If I do that, the programme actually starts at 09:59:59;29 field 2.

I'm on 17.3.1 Mac, if that changes anything. Btw, I think that the issue exists since a long time.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 5:25 pm

Annaël Beauchemin wrote:
Glenn Sakatch wrote:I do this all the time, with no issues.

In a 23.976 project, output a 23.976 master file of your show.
Bring that version back into the same project.
Create a new sequence, changing the sequence settings to 29.97 df
drop your bars at (in my case) 9:59:30:00, slate at 9:59:45:00, and show start at 10:00:00:00
Go to delivery page and create your render.

Create a 29.97 project to check your file, and you should see your show start at 10 hours and be drop frame.


So you are able to add a proper 3:2 pulldown on the 23.976 clip in the 29.97 timeline? How to you do that?


It's in export options if your timeline is 23.976:

Image
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 5:27 pm

Annaël Beauchemin wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:So in current Resolve state:
In 23.976 project:
Start timeline at 09:58:30:02 and put main programme at 09:59:59:22
After export with pulldown you will get desired 10:00:00;00 DF start.
Don't ask why though :lol:
Best to report to BM.


If I do that, the programme actually starts at 09:59:59;29 field 2.

I'm on 17.3.1 Mac, if that changes anything. Btw, I think that the issue exists since a long time.


For me it's clean progressive frame.
Where do you check it ?
I checked in Switch player and in Premiere (both can show fields).
I've checked again and definitely fine.

Does your final file show 09:58:30;03 start TC ?
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 6:18 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Annaël Beauchemin wrote:
Glenn Sakatch wrote:I do this all the time, with no issues.

In a 23.976 project, output a 23.976 master file of your show.
Bring that version back into the same project.
Create a new sequence, changing the sequence settings to 29.97 df
drop your bars at (in my case) 9:59:30:00, slate at 9:59:45:00, and show start at 10:00:00:00
Go to delivery page and create your render.

Create a 29.97 project to check your file, and you should see your show start at 10 hours and be drop frame.


So you are able to add a proper 3:2 pulldown on the 23.976 clip in the 29.97 timeline? How to you do that?


It's in export options if your timeline is 23.976:

Image


I was actually responding to Glenn who said he was converting from 23.976 to 29.97 DF inside the timeline, not via the Deliver page, if I read correctly.

That would be my preferred way of doing the conversion, since you can check timings of leaders, bumpers and of the show in 30 DF TC instead of guessing them in a 24 TC sequence.
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 6:36 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Annaël Beauchemin wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:So in current Resolve state:
In 23.976 project:
Start timeline at 09:58:30:02 and put main programme at 09:59:59:22
After export with pulldown you will get desired 10:00:00;00 DF start.
Don't ask why though :lol:
Best to report to BM.


If I do that, the programme actually starts at 09:59:59;29 field 2.

I'm on 17.3.1 Mac, if that changes anything. Btw, I think that the issue exists since a long time.


For me it's clean progressive frame.
Where do you check it ?
I checked in Switch player and in Premiere (both can show fields).
I've checked again and definitely fine.

Does your final file show 09:58:30;03 start TC ?


I realize that I'm not using the same TC start (09:58:40;00) so that's probably why we have different results. I'll try again with the same TC start and report back.

Thanks!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 6:39 pm

You can't use any combination- it has to be exactly one above :)
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Annaël Beauchemin

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You can't use any combination- it has to be exactly one above :)


So I took your numbers and I do get a proper 10:00:00;00 start on a progressive frame. But it's going to fail QC because the file starts at 09:58:30;03 and not 09:58:30;00.

If I take my 23.976 sequence and remove 2 frames at 09:59:30:00 (where the TC drop happens), the programme now starts at 09:59;59;29 field 2 once exported with a 3:2 pulldown. My guess is that 2 frames at 23.976 becomes 3 frames at 29.97. So that is normal (well, mathematically correct), but it also makes it impossible to export a proper broadcast master from Resolve using the Delver page's 3:2 pulldown when the leader has more than 1 min of duration.

I think I am going to send a feature request to BMD so that they add a Insert Pulldown feature so that we can simply export 23 sequence nested in a 29.97 sequence.

Thanks again for you help!
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 23.976 project to 29.97 DF master

PostMon Sep 20, 2021 11:19 pm

It’s all broken and needs proper fix from BM side.
When you set eg 09:58:30:00 start TC then this should be the same for final DF file. I don’t understand why it gets changed. For me it’s a bug.

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