608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

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MLanghausen

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608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 4:03 am

Having issues getting closed captioning embedded as 608 or 708 when using MXF OP1A XDCam MPEG2. This used to be an option in 17 and then it was taking away in versions after 17.

This is still persistent in 17.2.2

This is a must for broadcast delivery.


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Last edited by MLanghausen on Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 6:03 am

From my experience. Davinci Resolve has never been able to embed BOTH 608 and 708 in MPEG2. Are you referring to typical XDCAM HD 422 10bit? If so, I am certain this has never worked in DR.
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608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 6:10 am

IsraEliteMedia wrote:From my experience. Davinci Resolve has never been able to embed BOTH 608 and 708 in MPEG2. Are you referring to typical XDCAM HD 422 10bit? If so, I am certain this has never worked in DR.
I'm not not looking for both to be embedded. Just one format. Updated post to make that more clear. Thank you.

The options were there in 17 and prior but didn't work. The embedded 608 or 708 options disappeared in 17.1 and were replaced with something else and only sidecar.

And yes, standard 10bit XDCam HD 422 as Resolve calls it MPEG2


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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 8:07 am

We do not support embedding closed captions for XDCAM clips. The option to embed captions in that clip type were incorrectly available in 17 and as it did not function they were removed to avoid confusion.

They continue to work for the other formats.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 1:56 pm

Thanks Peter for the clear explanation. I don't understand why you aren't supporting XDCAM as ALL of my broadcast clients ask for XDCAM HD 422 for delivery.

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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostMon Jul 05, 2021 2:15 pm

We r looking into it further
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 6:11 am

Great to hear that it is on the radar!
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SOLVED - 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 5:35 am

This issue has been addressed in 17.3
I have completed a test render and all looks to function as intended.
I will be sending files to air within a week or so and will report back should there be any QC issues.

Thanks again for all your hard work and for listening to your customers.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostSun Aug 22, 2021 5:30 am

WOWZA! @ MLanghausen

I wouldn't have tried because it wasn't mentioned in the change log to 17.3

Really interested to hear more about this. I have spot deliveries on a weekly basis so I will probably take a test drive also.

Thanks for updating us.

Erik
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostMon Aug 23, 2021 3:48 pm

Erik,
Here is the note from the 17.3 list.

*** Support for embedding MPEG2 bitstream captions in XDCAM clips.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostFri Aug 27, 2021 8:05 am

Missed seeing that. Thank you! How are your tests going so far?
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.3.1

PostFri Sep 03, 2021 12:36 pm

I have an update on closed captioning in XDCAM 422 for Davinci Resolve 17.3.1

It is great to see that work has been done on moving forward with the implementation of closed captioning embedded in XDCAM 422 files. This is for many the standard delivery format for broadcast television content.

That said, my results today are that there are still problems with the implementation.

1- The best I can tell, it isn't possible to embed BOTH 608 and 708 captions in a single file. All of my clients require BOTH to be embedded so it's a guaranteed two passes just to attempt embedding both but I'm not certain if it is at all possible. Right now you can choose if you want 608 or 708 but not both. For me this means still doing the encoding of final master in Premier Pro.

2- There is also still something funky happening with the encoding of the stream. Even playing back in Switch (see attached screenshot) you can see that there are problems with the black background behind the text. Also, when viewing in other software such as Premier Pro the stream has a simple white text only stripped down look to it.

Curious to see if anyone else can describe their experience as well.

Thanks,

Erik
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Closed Captioning Problem.gif
Closed Captioning Problem.gif (570.65 KiB) Viewed 230 times
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.2.2

PostTue Sep 28, 2021 5:53 pm

I'm following, note:

According to: "TOS Short Form" (PDF) at:
https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/red-book/

Closed captions must include both 708 and 608 compatibility bytes embedded within MXF per
SMPTE 436M

and as a fallback:
PBS and NETA also accept captions via .scc sidecar file

I believe .scc isn't supported either.

For me there is also value in having the GUI distincting "608", "native 708", and "608 over 708", as laid out in this sheet, because it seems to me the naming is ambigous. It would help me to choose.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.3.1

PostTue Sep 28, 2021 6:11 pm

IsraEliteMedia wrote:I have an update on closed captioning in XDCAM 422 for Davinci Resolve 17.3.1

It is great to see that work has been done on moving forward with the implementation of closed captioning embedded in XDCAM 422 files. This is for many the standard delivery format for broadcast television content.

That said, my results today are that there are still problems with the implementation.

1- The best I can tell, it isn't possible to embed BOTH 608 and 708 captions in a single file. All of my clients require BOTH to be embedded so it's a guaranteed two passes just to attempt embedding both but I'm not certain if it is at all possible. Right now you can choose if you want 608 or 708 but not both. For me this means still doing the encoding of final master in Premier Pro.

2- There is also still something funky happening with the encoding of the stream. Even playing back in Switch (see attached screenshot) you can see that there are problems with the black background behind the text. Also, when viewing in other software such as Premier Pro the stream has a simple white text only stripped down look to it.

Curious to see if anyone else can describe their experience as well.

Thanks,

Erik


Best to test in final playback system.
Switch is not necessarily a 100% accurate player.
It has bugs as well.
I personally hate those outdated (over done and complicated) formats. As complained many times- broadcast is typically so outdated.
It's 21st century and things like subs should be piece of cake. We have complex codecs, HDR etc. yet still struggle with such a simple things like subtitles.
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Re: 608/708 Embedded Closed Captioning 17.3.1

PostTue Sep 28, 2021 9:27 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I personally hate those ... and things like subs should be piece of cake.

This kinda puts my frustration into perspective. After the last 4 hours of failing conditions, silent errors and bad workarounds, my solution was indeed to get a Tiramisu from round the corner.
That worked. On first attempt.

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