Creating a new master source?

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penbotsu

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Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 8:22 am

Hi @ll. Let's say I have some 20 captures of a game. Of course gameplay is not perfect so I will edit and merge the files it in Resolve. If done, I want to render a new "master source" for further edits in the future and delete the original files.

What is be the best way to do that?
Some additional questions about it:

- Since there will be a quality loss naturally, how can I have only a minimal one (without going uncompressed)?
- If the source has 120.000Mbit/s, should the new master have the exact same bitrate or does it need to be higher because of that quality loss when rendering?
- Any suggestions for good formats for further edits? (Also I want to be able to watch the file with MPC.)
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Uli Plank

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 11:43 am

On a PC, you can use DNxHR or Cineform. No visual quality loss and much smaller than uncompressed.
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peterjackson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 1:27 pm

I would not do this workflow. Use media management to trim unused footage.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 2:54 pm

I’d normally suggest that too. But since gameplay recordings often are VFR, he might be in for bad surprises.
@penbotsu:
What are you using for recording?
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penbotsu

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 5:48 pm

First of all many thanks for the suggestions/advices. I appreciate it. :)

@Uli Prank
Thanks a lot, I will try out this with a smaller file right now! Cool.

@peterjackson (please release Braindead uncut remaster soon :lol:)
I actually record only in CBR, so that's not an issue. I tried to cut the files via avidemux/LosslessCut to stay with the originals but unfortunately you can only cut on keyframes and not milliseconds or even frames accurately. Without this possibility I would have some second lost or doubled (when merging the files together). And...

*edit
Wait a second. ... I just checked a YouTube video about your mention, the media management in Resolve. And.. is it just doing the EXACT thing I'm searching for? Cutting files perfectly and saving them again without re-encoding and loosing quality? :shock:

Oh man, I will test this all today and give you feedback later.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 10:43 pm

CBR just means the bitrate is constant, not necessarily the frame rate.
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penbotsu

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 07, 2021 11:59 pm

@roger.magnusson
That's correct, yes. Thanks for the info. I always capture with constant 60fps.

@Uli Plank
Sorry, I forgot to answer your question before: I capture with an Avermedia GC573 (PS5) and/or "Action!" or OBS.

@all:
I tried some things today. I created an intermediate file from a 1h long gameplay (1080p60). Original file is about 6GB, the rendered now has a whopping 400GB. :lol: Well.. it's fair compared to the numbers in this list:
https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/13/compare-50-intermediate-codecs/

So it worked but I think it's too big for my requirements. I think I would rather make the final movie out of the source file (with the edits) and use proxy in the future, if I would have to work with it again.

I tried also the way with trimming. It LOOKS awesome in Resolve, but unfortunately it comes to the same issue as with the other trim apps. The example following is not perfect, I just want to show you what I mean:

1. In Resolve the cut looks like this:
https://streamable.com/odymat

2. But after trimming the result looks like that:
https://streamable.com/6dbrz5

See the difference? That's not time accurate so it's not usable for me. :(
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 am

Any app that does lossless trimming of H.264/H.265 can only do so on I-frames (non-interpolated frames). If you have that kind of source material there's no way around it unless you recompress. Maybe you can capture with all I-frames but then your file size will go up significantly.

If you have the project file it won't matter that the trimmed source material isn't trimmed at the edits, as the project will still be correct after trimming (might require proper timecode in the source files, I haven't tried without timecode).
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Uli Plank

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 12:59 am

VBR is not a problem at all, Variable Frame Rate would be. Don't expect frame accurate Media Management if that is the case. You'll need to convert it then or find better recording software (something like iShowU, but AFAIK that's Mac only).

One more thing, which I just checked: even with CFR, Media Management will extend to the next I-frame.
So, it’s not an option for GOP codecs in your case, as Roger already explained.

AFAIK you can use Xaymar's plug-in to record directly into ProRes with OBS.
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penbotsu

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostMon Dec 20, 2021 10:57 pm

Hello again. After much reading and some trial and error, I have found the following way for me:

Record with (too) high bitrate -> Convert with Handbrake via CRF.

So far, so good. But it confuses me a bit.

1. if I render/convert a 8bit video with 8bit (Handbrake or Resolve), I get a lot of banding. If I render with 10bit instead, the transitions are like the original. Why? And most importantly, is it a disadvantage if the files are now 10bit?

2. for h265, RF12 (medium Preset) is lossless for me. At 13 I start to see some loss in details. But I don't understand the Preset options. There are ultrafast to veryslow and according to instructions and in terms of quality, you get the best results with veryslow.

Okay, this reads to me first as if I either get the exact same quality under veryslow as with veryfast but with a smaller file or the quality is higher while the size remains the same.

The more disappointing is now that both happens. I have converted a 2min sequence. And while you can see the visual difference between veryfast (lower) and veryslow (higher), the size is just as different (veryfast=smaller, veryslow=bigger).

So.... what's the point then? I thought for quality I have the RF value? Why does the Preset also change that? It seems to me like I can get the same end result (quality & size) no matter if I say (example):
RF12 -> veryfast
or
RF14 -> veryslow


Can someone explain this to me in more detail?
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peterjackson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 21, 2021 12:41 pm

For your use case really spend the few dollars on TMPGEnc Smart Renderer. It does support frame accurate trims and reencodes the affected GOP using x264/x265.
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penbotsu

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 22, 2021 12:44 pm

Not answers my question unfortunately. But maybe it is the wrong forum to ask about Handbrake or ffmpeg settings.

And every software does frame accurate trims as long as you reencode, right? So I'm not sure what would be the advantage of this compared to use Resolve for that.
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Andy Mees

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 22, 2021 12:57 pm

Any reason you're not intersted in the first suggestion, to create your new masters using a high quality codec?
Appreciate you don't want to go full uncompressed, but ProRes, Cineform etc would provide compression with visually lossless results and hard drive space is not expensive.
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peterjackson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 pm

penbotsu wrote:Not answers my question unfortunately. But maybe it is the wrong forum to ask about Handbrake or ffmpeg settings.

And every software does frame accurate trims as long as you reencode, right? So I'm not sure what would be the advantage of this compared to use Resolve for that.
Man, it only reencodes a few frames of the cut GOP group, not the whole file. You really seem to make no attempt even at trying to understand things. It's like Resolve media management trim, but frame accurate.
Last edited by peterjackson on Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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peterjackson

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 22, 2021 1:05 pm

Also your FFMPEG and encode questions are so basic, did you even bother to look at FFMPEG H264 / H265 pages?

Yes, use 10 bit CPQ 12 for visually lossless and no preset slower than medium. Slow and very slow only exist for academic reasons.

But then again, what's the point, TMPGEnc Smart Render exists just for your particular use case. Either use the right tool for the job or suffer and waste your life time. Your choice.
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penbotsu

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostTue Dec 28, 2021 11:05 pm

@Andy Mees
I tried it a bit and felt the files with DNxHR (ProRes not applicable (PC) and Cineform is not offered to me by Resolve?) are too big. The list here gives it quite well what to expect:

https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/13/compar ... te-codecs/

However, this applies to 24fps, I have 60fps. With about 20 hours of playtime for a game, the intermediate file gets huge. Therefore I wanted to convert it with Handbrake, which offers me (for me) visually lossless compression, but with smaller file sizes.
Thanks for the suggestion anyway. I will consider it again.


@peterjackson
Man (...), there's no need to answer annoyed? I was just asking a question. And even though you say the question is very basic, it remain unanswered. I've read through the pages on ffmpeg (and it doesn't say that "slow(er)" in principle brings nothing). And sorry that I didn't immediately understand how the program works, not everyone here has the same level. I'm pretty new to this and thought a post in a forum is the right thing to do after I read about something, test it, and can't find answers to my questions. My fault.

"You really seem to make no attempt even at trying to understand things."
Rude. =/

Thank you anyway for the tip. Fortunately there's a demo so I'll try first.



@ll
Have a great new year.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Creating a new master source?

PostWed Dec 29, 2021 12:27 am

A demo for what? ffmpeg is free.

I suggested DNxHR or Cineform, since they are easier on the machine when editing. True, file size for H.264/265 are much smaller, but if your hardware is not up to decoding those at 60 fps, it'll be no joy.

Regarding Cineform, you don't see this? It won't be much smaller than DNxHR, though.
Bildschirmfoto 2021-12-29 um 07.25.40.png
Bildschirmfoto 2021-12-29 um 07.25.40.png (27.6 KiB) Viewed 93 times
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
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