HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

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Brett8883

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HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 12:03 am

What do I need to do to monitor Resolve Studio in HDR on the new M1 Max MacBookPro? I’m using color Management Automatic color management for HDR and outputting HDR HLG.

Would be nice to be able to see what I am doing while grading. Looks great once exported but I can only see in SDR inside of Resolve.

Thanks,
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SteveMullen

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 2:43 am

HLG employs two combined gamma curves: the video signal from 0-percent to 60-percent is a good match for REC.709 televisions. When viewed on a REC.709 display, video will look great which it should because HLG was designed to be compatible with SDR displays.

From 60-percent to 100-percent the HLG signal smoothly segues into logarithmic encoding. On an HLG compatible HDR television, the range above 60-percent will be presented with full, HDR, dynamic range. On an SDR television, this highlight range will be compressed.

What makes an HLG TV? My assumption -- because HGL uses a REC.2020 wide-gamut color space with REC.2100 HLG gamma it has to accept these data. Which means it must switch from REC.709 color space and REC.709 gamma. But I have yet to find if HLG uses any metadata or flag to cause the switch. (YOUtube never claims HLG is HDR which suggests no metadata or flag.)

My guess is while the M1 16" display can show HDR, the software driving the display would need to accept the REC.2020 wide-gamut color space with REC.2100 HLG gamma. This probably can be done with Resolve Studio.

I have found a way to simulate the look of HDR on REC.709 devices and "should" work with HDR TV's. Don't have one, so I don't know. But it looks great on my M1 MBP16. But everything looks great!
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Brett8883

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 2:47 am

To clarify once the video is exported from resolve it shows on the MacBook Pro in HDR just fine. It’s only monitoring in Resolve that’s the issue. No matter what HDR colorspace and gamma I use it’s not viewable as HDR inside of resolve.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 2:54 am

I just figured it out. I had to enable “use Mac display color profiles for viewers” in the general system preferences.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 3:05 am

This guys videos might be helpful too:
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Brett8883

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 3:38 am

Uli Plank wrote:This guys videos might be helpful too:

He’s probably right that it’s better to use one of the reference modes because unless your viewers have the same display it won’t look nearly as good for them but I tell you what the full XDR mode looks delicious and it’s hard not to use that mode.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am

You can't trust the XDR display on the Mac M1 Max. I own one and I'm looking at it right now. It's not good enough for HDR or HLG, and I'm not convinced it's good enough for Rec709. Calibration is still a huge issue.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 4:30 pm

SteveMullen wrote:HLG employs two combined gamma curves: the video signal from 0-percent to 60-percent is a good match for REC.709 televisions. When viewed on a REC.709 display, video will look great which it should because HLG was designed to be compatible with SDR displays.

From 60-percent to 100-percent the HLG signal smoothly segues into logarithmic encoding. On an HLG compatible HDR television, the range above 60-percent will be presented with full, HDR, dynamic range. On an SDR television, this highlight range will be compressed.

What makes an HLG TV? My assumption -- because HGL uses a REC.2020 wide-gamut color space with REC.2100 HLG gamma it has to accept these data. Which means it must switch from REC.709 color space and REC.709 gamma. But I have yet to find if HLG uses any metadata or flag to cause the switch. (YOUtube never claims HLG is HDR which suggests no metadata or flag.)


It’s actually 0 - 50% HLG which has the power function, for which 50% corresponds to 100% SDR (using data levels).

The problem is that HLG, when natively exposed @ 21% IRE, would appear too dark on an SDR display.

If you follow the BT.2408 recommendation and expose at 38% IRE, then this could possibly work as HLG 75% would then correspond to 100% SDR.

But the other issue is that Rec.2020 based encodings interpreted as Rec.709 would appear very dull on SDR screens. Not much can be done about that.

BTW, HLG does have the transfer characteristics flag which is then detected and triggered as HDR on Applications/TVs.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 5:08 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:You can't trust the XDR display on the Mac M1 Max. I own one and I'm looking at it right now. It's not good enough for HDR or HLG, and I'm not convinced it's good enough for Rec709. Calibration is still a huge issue.

Do you mean in terms of brightness or color accuracy?

Never the less it looks amazing
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostWed Dec 08, 2021 8:30 pm

Apple doesn't offer HLG preset for new HDR screens. Not sure why?
Brightness is not a problem at all as it goes way outside 1000nits and proper preset properly clips it at 1000 nits.
You would need to measure and check how far it's from standards if you want to use it for some paid work. Some units are at eg. 6600K, so need adjustment for sure.
Blooming effect is there (specially off-axis preview, where it gets blue tint), but worse is pulsing on scene changes when they go from dark<-> bright. This starts to annoy me a lot during movies.
In the same time Netflix DV graded titles look great, accuracy is good enough for a home screen. It's a joy to watch well HDR graded movies now. We finally moved away from Rec.709 SDR. Still not impressed with some HDR grades- too dark by average. Even when I watch at quiet dark room it's still hard to see some details.

Here are measurements from some well known guy (also done with proper probe- Colorimetry Research CR-300):
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ap ... t-30551191

HDR tracking is not that bad as for home screen (SDR even better).
It includes DEITP values which is new "Delta E"
Delta E values look excellent, but I would like to see side by side view against reference screen.

Portrait Displays has been investigating the differences between DEITP and the commonly used DE2000 metric to help users transition to using the new metric. “DEITP has been proven in recent visual research to be a more consistent predictor of color differences over the commonly used DE2000, especially for high dynamic range (HDR) and wide color gamut (WCG) display technologies. The two metrics have significant differences in how they model the human visual system, which results in notably different predictions of visual color differences,” said Catherine Meininger, Color Scientist at Portrait Displays.

“You can expect DEITP to produce higher numerical values than DE2000, and by consequence, predict larger perceptual differences than DE2000. While it is true that DEITP can overpredict color differences, it is also highly likely that DE2000 has been underpredicting color differences, especially for HDR and WCG scenarios,” continued Meininger.

Catherine Meininger and Tyler Pruitt of Portrait Displays will be presenting a detailed comparison of DEITP and DE2000 at the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) 2019 Annual Technical Conference in Los Angeles, CA. The presentation will be recorded and distributed by SMPTE at a later date.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostThu Dec 09, 2021 3:56 pm

Nice. Well this person seems to know what they are doing and is very complementary of the XDR display.

I’m not expecting this thing to rival purpose built HDR reference monitors used in Hollywood studios that cost 10s or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I do notice the flashing that occurs when you go from black to high nit brightness but I really only notice it when it’s a gradual fade in from black. That’s the only complaint I’ve personally noticed. Everything else seems excellent.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostThu Dec 09, 2021 4:07 pm

For YouTube project those screen are fine and with a switch you get SDR/HDR mode.
You can grade HDR, switch screen to SDR profile and check how QTX tonne mapped preview looks like. Very useful.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostThu Dec 09, 2021 4:43 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:You can't trust the XDR display on the Mac M1 Max. I own one and I'm looking at it right now. It's not good enough for HDR or HLG, and I'm not convinced it's good enough for Rec709. Calibration is still a huge issue.


And you have of course selected the profile you want then? The normal XDR mode can't be used at all.

P
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostThu Dec 09, 2021 4:45 pm

That mode is good to watch already graded movies as then you get tonne mapped versions with 1600 nits peak opposite to 1000 nits. It doesn't really break much a reference look, but it's 'brighter'.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostFri Dec 10, 2021 10:08 am

Brett8883 wrote:Do you mean in terms of brightness or color accuracy? Never the less it looks amazing

It's a great-looking computer display. But it's not good enough for judging final color. Again: calibration is key. Read what Steve Shaw says here:

"Light Illusion: Why Calibrate?"
https://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

Pal Svennevig wrote:And you have of course selected the profile you want then? The normal XDR mode can't be used at all.

Whatever profile I choose has no bearing on the specific panel on the day they made it. Every panel changes, and the OS itself has an effect on how the panel works. There's too many variables: it's like a speaker with 10 different volume and EQ controls... you have no idea what you're hearing since it's being changed so much on the way out.

I've stared at maybe 1000 different monitors in my life for 40 years, and calibration is always a critical consideration I worry about when I walk in the room. There's been days when I've walked in, looked at a gray screen and said, "nope, something's wrong," and I stop down and make the engineer come in and measure it. Sometimes they say, "you're crazy, it's like .5% from perfect," but most of the time they say, "ah, there's a fault here... it's drifted a bit." And they make an adjustment and everything is fine. Digital projectors do it, too.

We worry enough about calibration that we probably spend a couple grand a year on having an engineer drop by with a Klein K-10A colorimeter to check to make sure what we see hits reasonable industry standards. (A DeltaE of 1.0 or less is considered pretty good.) Of course, if you're just learning, if you're just using Resolve as a hobby, if it's not a big deal to you... using anything is fine. I'm just putting out the warning: NO, the XDR display on the MacBook Pro M1 Max is not good enough for grading, especially if you expect consistent results. I don't even think the big $5000 Apple XDR display is good enough for judging color. There are good (and affordable) displays out there that can work, and those have been discussed hundreds of times in other threads.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostFri Dec 10, 2021 10:47 am

When it comes to colors itself or gamma tracking they actually may be fine. They measure to very good values. Stability may be a problem (no one really validate it), but then you just validate them more often.
It's all side effects which can causes issues in real world. Delta E is just some math and a particular probe interpretation of a color. You can have 2 monitors which will measure perfectly, but they will look differently to the eye. Dolby PRM had strange pink tint even if it was perfectly at 6500K and also overall looked like poor PC monitor next to Sony X300 (even if colors were perfectly accurate). Of course this was mainly down to black levels. Even this new screens may get to <1, but then how useable they are with their sizes?
Delta E is getting obsolete anyway. You have DEITP as new measure which is way more sensitive. It's actually now an ITU recommendation:
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/re ... !PDF-E.pdf

I'm waiting for FSI to release their zoned monitor as I think zoned technology is just simply not good enough for reference screens. Fact that it will be UHD resolution means it's based on non-specialised panel and there is no way they can eliminate all problems related to zones (specially when they targeting 5K nits). But let's see. I may be so wrong.
All comes down to managing expectations (same as for Apple machines performance). Don't read YT video tags, be realistic and match product to your actual needs. Internet nonsense with B&W approach (as good as 30K screens, no near reference etc. ) can be left for YT 'experts'. Focus on facts, calibration results and understand screen limitations.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 2:28 am

It’s actually 0 - 50% HLG which has the power function, for which 50% corresponds to 100% SDR (using data levels)...

> Looking more closely, the two curves do diverge at about 55% so the xover point is 50%.

The problem is that HLG, when natively exposed @ 21% IRE, would appear too dark on an SDR display. If you follow the BT.2408 recommendation and expose at 38% IRE, then this could possibly work as HLG 75% would then correspond to 100% SDR.

> If one is shooting HLG on a Sony phone there is no problem with brightness because exposure is greater.

BTW, HLG does have the transfer characteristics flag which is then detected and triggered as HDR on Applications/TVs.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 6:41 am

"It's a great-looking computer display. But it's not good enough for judging final color. Again: calibration is key."

Good enough for what? Judgements -- opinions -- on what other folks should value really are useless here.

Folks who will use the M1 display are very likely targeting viewers who will watch via YouTube and possibly on a phone or on their computer. Bet this is the vast majority of Resolve users who found the original post. This post was about HGL. A very cheap way, if you shoot on a Sony phone or camera, to experiment with HDR.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 7:09 am

It’s actually 0 - 50% HLG which has the power function, for which 50% corresponds to 100% SDR (using data levels).
The problem is that HLG, when natively exposed @ 21% IRE, would appear too dark on an SDR display.
If you follow the BT.2408 recommendation and expose at 38% IRE, then this could possibly work as HLG 75% would then correspond to 100% SDR.

Not a problem for those who shoot HLG on Sony phones.

But the other issue is that Rec.2020 based encodings interpreted as Rec.709 would appear very dull on SDR screens. Not much can be done about that.

Good point. See below.

BTW, HLG does have the transfer characteristics flag which is then detected and triggered as HDR on Applications/TVs.


Looked more closely on a BBC graph and indeed the breakpoint is 50%.


I found this in a UHD Guidelines document:

There are SDR/HDR embedded flags.

Another HDR transfer function defined for use in television is “Hybrid Log-Gamma” (HLG) developed by the BBC and NHK. This is defined as a camera capture transfer curve, or OETF. This curve was designed to provide HDR while maintaining a degree of backward compatibility with SDR/BT.2020 displays.

Content produced using HLG can be displayed on SDR/WCG devices with a degree of compatibility that may be judged acceptable for programs and services according to Report ITU- R BT.2390 [6], and subjective tests performed by the EBU, RAI, IRT and Orange Labs [88]. Backward-compatible HLG is only intended to support SDR/BT.2020 (WCG) displays and not intended for displays which only support SDR/BT.709. See below for a deeper discussion of backward compatibility, including the pros, cons and open questions that apply to various possible methods.

And ass far as "is the M1 display good enough"--Ultra HD Forum InterOp testing has shown that consumer displays vary significantly, especially when different viewing “modes” are selected (e.g., “sports mode” or “movie mode”). Research has also shown that ambient light in the viewing room can have an impact on humans’ perception of a displayed image. Section 6.2 of ITU-R report BT.2390 [6] describes how the display gamma may be adjusted to provide [b]some compensation[/b].

This explains why in other places HLG is described as backward compatible with UHD displays--that support REC.2020. What does that mean when we watch on an M1 display via UT or QT? Isn't it P3?
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 10:49 am

You can’t properly monitor HLG atm. as Apple doesn’t offer preset with HLG gamma (nor ability to create one). Not sure why.
You can watch HLG as SDR but it’s far from accurate. That backward compatibility is more a theory than real thing. It just looks dark and can’t be used for grading nor even for watching. It's more like an emergency mode and it's mainly related to broadcast where they may not have 'time and a way' to convert HLG into SDR when needed.
If you have HLG MOV file you can watch it and it will be converted to current screen profile by QTX and give you 'correct' preview. You can then change flagging for the file to 2.4 gamma (so pretend it's SDR signal) and then you will get SDR preview. You will see that they are quite different. In the same time if you do it to PQ based files then preview is very wrong (we have no degree of compatibility at all as per their naming convention :) ).
In case of H265 there is a way to flag file in specific way (with HLG and SDR gamma), so when screen is HLG capable then it displays HDR and if not it switches to SDR by itself. This is how many TVs work- they auto switch with correctly flagged files.

In most cases it’s Rec.2020 signal, but gamut should be limited to P3 as this is what displays (good ones) can show. If you use full Rec.2020 then you preview will vary depending how many % out of this wide gamut given screen can display. You don’t want it. When you grade HDR you should about always have Rec.2020 output, but with P3 limited gamut. Besides any UHD transmission between devices is based on Rec.2020, so this is what is expected. In file world you can have P3 flagged files, so then it's strictly P3 based file (not Rec.2020 with P3 gamut limit). Due to fact that Rec.2020 is out of reach for current displays and that P3 signalling doesn't exist in transmission standards you have this confusion. Unfortunately in post work even if we have all these standards not everything is very clear and simple :)
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 2:43 pm

So update on this. Wether I set up the timeline in HLG, PQ, or playback in Dolby Vision they all look the same on the XDR display so it must be able to dynamically change the display for whatever content is being displayed. In fact I can have one video playing correctly in HDR on one window and another playing correctly in SDR in another window so it must be able to dynamically change portions of the screen to the correct colorspace for the content.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 3:40 pm

Yes, this is how OSX color management works. Your Resolve setting gets converted to screen profile, so you always see about the same video. It's never exactly the same, but for the eye in most cases it will be. This is fine for watching content. OSX is not switching monitor to desired mode- it converts current video to your selected screen preset, which is not the same thing.

If you want to do grading then you don't want any conversion happening. This is why you have reference presets for HDR, SDR (BT.1886) etc. Lest say you want to grade HDR PQ then you need to switch screen to correct preset. Apple on purpose disables any settings for reference modes- no brightness change, no TrueTone, etc. If Resolve setting matches your preset setting then you have no conversion and this is what you want (this is how it works in proper SDI etc. based setup). You have 1:1 preview. If screen is calibrated to that given standard then you have accurate preview.
Atm. HLG can't be monitored accurately (you will just get conversion to given screen preset) as Apple doesn't provide HLG preset (nor it offers HLG gamma choice in custom preset creator).

Same video exported to different standards can be converted to given screen profile independently, so all will look about the same. This is proper behaviour for home users. You can have eg. SDR grade exported as Rec.709 and also conversion to P3 DCI. If files are tagged properly (and Apple OSX engine understand them- not all possible flagging is recognised by OSX engine) then both files will look basically identical to the eye in QTX. More correct way would be to switch screen to desired mode (based on file headers), but of course then it would be possible to watch only 1 video in correct way. This is more a pro feature and could be restricted only to eg. full screen preview (but then how would we be sure what mode we are in?). It would also require many profiles and each of them to be verified for accuracy.

Just note that in case of HDR to SDR conversion it's tonne mapped one, which means SDR preview can be different to eg. what you could achieve in Resolve. Apple's algorithm is ok and takes into account HDR metadata (if available). It also works similar way if you have Rec.709 SDR file and this goes to Apple XDR P3 profile. It's pure conversion based on math (most likely according to some ITU, etc. recommendations), but still may not be the same as eg. Resolve or other app one. In case of smaller gamut mapping to higher it should be fine, but eg. HDR to SDR will be way more sensitive to chosen method.

For home users keeping default Apple HDR screen profile is absolutely fine.
When I watch Dolby Vision graded titles on Netflix I keep default profile as there is no harm in watching grade for 1000 nits on 1600 nits screen. I'm in brighter environment, so it's more likely even desired way of watching. If you want to be pedantic you can choose HDR PQ reference mode and see it the same way as it was graded (up to 1000 nits). You can also change refresh rate to 48Hz (or 47.97/50) depending of actual video fps (not easy as Netflix doesn't show video fps). This way you get perfect sync between content and monitor (as you would on reference screen). I don't think ProMotion locks to video fps (or its multiply). It could and then this would be a great feature!
For pro users you need to have screen calibrated and then depending on working project you need to choose correct reference profile while grading. Resolve setting need to match chosen screen profile setting (you want 1:1 preview without any conversion). If you do grades in Resolve to eg. Rec.709 2.2 gamma then you can create custom preset based on this gamma. There are few options possible on top what Apple offers by default.
These screens are the first to offer about all what is desired/needed in order to get proper looking SDR/HDR videos on a laptop (like we have on good TVs). Once things are polished it all should work well. No one talks about 100% accuracy, as this is not what is really needed for home device. As long as we see video displayed at proper gamma and with eg. 90%+ accurate colors (+correct refresh rate) it's all good.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 5:54 pm

So what I am hearing is I should just change my output settings in Resolve to be PQ instead of HLG? That’s easy enough. I notice zero difference between the two. Honestly, the only reason I started using HLG in the first place was the waveform monitor in the color page would let me go up to 10,000 nits and PQ would clip at 1000 Nits but I realize now that doesn’t change what actually shows up on the screen.

I upload videos mainly to Vimeo and so I’ve been experimenting with HDR the last few days and watching the videos output in various formats on different HDR and SDR displays on various devices and here’s what I have found.

These are my color Management settings that have worked the best for me. Sweet and simple. I’m using CinemaDNG footage.

F21A87A5-4218-4870-B726-EEC1CA85A002.png
F21A87A5-4218-4870-B726-EEC1CA85A002.png (850.13 KiB) Viewed 694 times


I found what works best is to export as ProRes 422 HQ from Resolve and then run it through Apple Compressor to transcode it to HEVC 10-bit, HLG, Dolby Vision 8.4. Dolby Vision 8.4 seems to be the golden goose for the best universal HDR/SDR experience online. It even looks better in SDR than if I graded it in SDR all the way. This is just my experience experimenting the last few days.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 6:29 pm

HLG is one thing and PQ different.
Use settings as below.
Enable HDR10+
Switch your monitor to HDR Video P3-ST 2084. This is reference mode for PQ 1000nits grading.
After grading is done export to ProRes and tick embed HDR10.
After export, open file in QTX and check its details. It should say HDR10 prepared for 1000nits.
Upload to Vimeo. It will be exactly what Vimeo is asking for here:
https://vimeo.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/arti ... ion-videos
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Brett8883

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 6:43 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:HLG is one thing and PQ different.
Use settings as below.
Enable HDR10+
Switch your monitor to HDR Video P3-ST 2084. This is reference mode for PQ 1000nits grading.
After grading is done export to ProRes and tick embed HDR10.
After export, open file in QTX and check its details. It should say HDR10 prepared for 1000nits.
Upload to Vimeo. It will be exactly what Vimeo is asking for here:
https://vimeo.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/arti ... ion-videos

What does enable HDR10+ do? I thought HDR10 and HDR10+ were different? Even if I don’t enable HDR 10+ it will still show as HDR 10 in QuickTime
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 7:06 pm

Alright I’m gonna try it just as you say and then also upload one using Dolby Vision 8.4 and we can compare the HDR versions, as well as the SDR versions. My experience has been so far that the SDR version created from Dolby Vision was far superior to the SDR version created from HDR 10.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 7:07 pm

For you it just enables ability to write HDR metadata into MOV.
Embed HDR10 shows up in export.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 7:17 pm

Im not entirely sure what HLG+DV export from Compressor does.
It takes your HLG grade, creates some DV metadata and writes all into h265?
When it comes to having also good auto SDR DV should be most reliable.

You want to grade to PQ as this way you have 1:1 preview.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 8:09 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Im not entirely sure what HLG+DV export from Compressor does.
It takes your HLG grade, creates some DV metadata and writes all into h265?.


Yes, that’s my understanding. It works with PQ grades as well but always converts to HGL. I haven’t noticed a difference between feeding it HGL or PQ even when viewing on other devices. It’s the only way to upload Dolby Vision to Vimeo as the metadata has to be embedded. Basically you are giving viewers the DV benefit for SDR and the HDR benefit of HLG/PQ. Obviously you don’t get the dynamic metadata of DV for HDR.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 8:19 pm

According to BBC PQ to HLG conversion gives 100% same end preview (except math rounding errors, but this is irrelevant).
In your case you want to have same Resolve/export/Vimeo preview and also very close match to reference screen (if you had ability to check your master on reference screen). This is the goal.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 8:30 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:According to BBC PQ to HLG conversion gives 100% same end preview (except math rounding errors, but this is irrelevant).
In your case you want to have same Resolve/export/Vimeo preview and also very close match to reference screen (if you had ability to check your master on reference screen). This is the goal.

Yea exactly.

Ok here's a short video I made from clips I took a long time ago that has lots of good high dynamic range that I just remastered in HDR. Added some music for fun.

This is the Dolby Vision 8.4 version
https://vimeo.com/655700096/d6438dae0a

This is the HDR10 version
https://vimeo.com/655699448/c7488f50b1

Honestly the HDR10 version looks absolutely awful in HDR when played on Vimeo, nothing like I see it on my screen even with the correct reference modes. Note the exported video from Resolve doesn't look this bad playing locally on my machine.

In HDR the Dolby Vision version looks exactly like I see on my local screen. The SDR version is acceptable.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 9:12 pm

Exported ProRes should look identical to Resolve preview.
Have you uploaded ProRes to Vimeo?

I noticed one thing. Thumbnails on HDR10 look fine :)
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 11:22 pm

The exported HDR10 looks fine but when it gets uploaded it gets all messed up.

Yea kinda interesting that the HDR10 thumbnails looks fine and DV thumbnail looks messed up but when you play the videos it’s the other way around.

You in theory can upload ProRes to Vimeo but in reality it would take up an unnecessary amount of storage.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSat Dec 11, 2021 11:48 pm

So what do you upload?
If you upload h265 it has to have correct metadata. If metadata is incorrect Vimeo will mess it.
Resolve H265 out of M1 has main tags ok, but it misses HDR display mastering metadata. Maybe this messes Vimeo.
Export h265 to MOV and use this:
https://mogurenko.com
to add display mastering metadata (Metadata Editor tab). There is a preset for P3 D65 there. You just choose it and press Apply in right bottom corner. Changes are done in place instantly.
Even more correct way is to use ffmpeg for x265 encode and specify there all needed mastering info. Both ways should work though.
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Brett8883

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSun Dec 12, 2021 1:17 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:So what do you upload?
If you upload h265 it has to have correct metadata. If metadata is incorrect Vimeo will mess it.
Resolve H265 out of M1 has main tags ok, but it misses HDR display mastering metadata. Maybe this messes Vimeo.
Export h265 to MOV and use this:
https://mogurenko.com
to add display mastering metadata (Metadata Editor tab). There is a preset for P3 D65 there. You just choose it and press Apply in right bottom corner. Changes are done in place instantly.
Even more correct way is to use ffmpeg for x265 encode and specify there all needed mastering info. Both ways should work though.

Yes h265 but the video I uploaded seems to have the correct tags?
71FA95ED-DB4D-4B85-8F40-4E44FF8ED282.jpeg
71FA95ED-DB4D-4B85-8F40-4E44FF8ED282.jpeg (145.63 KiB) Viewed 456 times
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostSun Dec 12, 2021 10:10 am

Ok, must be some Vimeo issue then.
What about content light metadata?
Mediainfo shows it.
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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostMon Dec 13, 2021 6:00 am

I’ve enjoyed the thread. I’m working on the same workflow for YouTube and Vimeo using HDR10.
Here are results:
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: HDR Monitoring on built in M1 Max screen for HLG?

PostTue Dec 14, 2021 12:59 am

Not getting HDR at all in Chrome. Other HDR clips are fine.

update-all good now. It probably was still generating HDR. Now Safari also works after 12.1 update.

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