Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

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Tom Roper

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Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat Dec 19, 2020 1:00 am

Does Resolve support ICtCp color?
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Jim Simon

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat Dec 19, 2020 3:18 pm

I've never heard of it, so my inclination is to say no.

But...there is still much for me to learn about Resolve.
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat Dec 19, 2020 6:11 pm

If not explicitly natively, conversions to and from can be done with DCTL.
I do stuff.
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Tom Roper

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun Dec 20, 2020 7:57 am

DaVinci Colorspace Transform Language.

I'm not asking if I can support Resolve by writing a program that transforms BT.2020 to ICtCp.

So no.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun Dec 20, 2020 10:39 am

“Support” is a bit vague here because ICtCp is part of larger ecosystem of colorspaces and encodings, at least some of which are supported. What do you need to get done exactly?
I do stuff.
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Tom Roper

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun Dec 20, 2020 4:09 pm

ICtCp color is an exclusive feature of Dolby Vision.
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Olivier MATHIEU

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostTue May 10, 2022 1:39 pm

it seems (I'm might be wrong) that resolve 18b2 is capable oh H265 Dolby Vision File with Profile 5.0
It looks like Ictcp
resolve can't color manage these files !!!
Quicktime player seem to be fine .... but with showing any tags

So many questions raise ....
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Tom Roper

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostTue May 10, 2022 5:42 pm

I was wrong to call ICtCp an exclusive feature of DV. It's supported in x265. If you render an intermediate from Resolve in linear RGB, then x265 can set color matrices to ICtCp without the saturation, hue and luma crosstalk inherent in Y'CbCr.
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Olivier MATHIEU

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostWed May 11, 2022 5:04 pm

Tom Roper wrote:If you render an intermediate from Resolve in linear RGB, then x265 can set color matrices to ICtCp without the saturation, hue and luma crosstalk inherent in Y'CbCr.

Thanks
Can you elaborate please
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostThu May 12, 2022 3:58 pm

Tom Roper wrote:ICtCp color is an exclusive feature of Dolby Vision.

May be you are referring to IPTPSc2 ? seen here ;) :
capture 2022-05-12 à 17.53.37.png
capture 2022-05-12 à 17.53.37.png (36.58 KiB) Viewed 770 times


When Resolve is rendering DoVi profile 5 the "Code points" are absent and should be 9-16-14
14 is for ICtCp
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat May 14, 2022 5:11 am

Use Resolve to render a 4:4:4 linear RGB colorspace intermediate for input to x265. Then use x265 to output an HEVC 10b 4:2:0 ICtCp UHD file compatible with UHDTV Alliance 4k ultra hdr premium.

https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/master/

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat May 14, 2022 5:18 am

And 9-16-14 would be correct, for BT.2020 primaries, PQ (ST2084) transfer and ICtCp matrix coefficients.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat May 14, 2022 8:14 am

Tom Roper wrote:Use Resolve to render a 4:4:4 linear RGB colorspace intermediate for input to x265. Then use x265 to output an HEVC 10b 4:2:0 ICtCp UHD file compatible with UHDTV Alliance 4k ultra hdr premium.

Thanks
What about what I've mentioned earlier ➧ Dolby Vision profile5 in the Deliver page
Is there a difference with what you describe ?
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat May 14, 2022 8:15 am

Tom Roper wrote:And 9-16-14 would be correct, for BT.2020 primaries, PQ (ST2084) transfer and ICtCp matrix coefficients.

I think it is exactly that ... but "9-16-14" aren't written in the file ! :shock:
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSat May 14, 2022 1:01 pm

x265 puts in the metadata. BMD are not exporting a playable-ready DV file afaik.
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Olivier MATHIEU

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun May 15, 2022 7:19 am

Tom Roper wrote:x265 puts in the metadata.

Okay
I'm a "fast learner", if you explained to me "long enough" :lol:
Tom Roper wrote: BMD are not exporting a playable-ready DV file afaik.

Hope this will be fix for the 18 RC
Thanks
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun May 15, 2022 12:00 pm

Tom Roper wrote:x265 puts in the metadata. BMD are not exporting a playable-ready DV file afaik.


They are in 18b02.
Files are recognised (by players which support DV) properly, eg. QT-X works fine.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=151575#p847344
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun May 15, 2022 4:59 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:They are in 18b02.
Files are recognised (by players which support DV) properly, eg. QT-X works fine.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=151575#p847344

In Quicktime Player Color seems OK but info doesn't show any tags
profile5.0.png
profile5.0.png (10.96 KiB) Viewed 629 times

Media info also see no tags
The good news it has Full Levels !!

Davinci resolve can't interpret correctly the file AS a source
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun May 15, 2022 7:59 pm

Ah, you mean QT tags.
Add them with http://mogurenko.com

Full levels is not always a "must have" for DV files. Not sure about those h265 final delivery ones (those may actually need to be full levels), but when you create intermediate DV master as eg. ProRes then better leave levels as Auto (they will end up limited). This is now treated as correct way (compared to old Dolby suggestion of forcing full levels for ProRes).
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostSun May 15, 2022 10:50 pm

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (316.54 KiB) Viewed 604 times
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 1:37 am

DV profile 5 is not required to specify VUI but must use PQ and IPT color space which is basically same as BT2100 ICtCp. BT2100 uses BT2020 primaries. In Dolby Vision context, Profiles/Notes to profiles 2.1.1, Profile 5 is said to use range="full" per ITU-T H.265 with VUI parameters 2,2,2,1,0 with the "2" in the first three parameters said to="undefined," but the first "2" (for the "range" parameter) in ITU-T H.265 actually specifies NTSC which="limited," so this is either in error or very confusing. In regular x265 parlance, range=2 would be "full." In UHDTV HDR10 context, range="limited."


Note from ITU-T H.265
Code: Select all
video_signal_type_present_flag equal to 1 specifies that video_format, video_full_range_flag and
colour_description_present_flag are present. video_signal_type_present_flag equal to 0, specify that video_format,
video_full_range_flag and colour_description_present_flag are not present.
NOTE 4 – Some of the semantics of video signal type parameters associated with video_signal_type_present_flag equal to 1 are
expressed in terms of the properties of source pictures prior to operation of the encoding process, which is outside the scope of this
Specification. This is partly for historical reasons and due to the common general practice of how the indicated data is typically
described in industry publications. The actual intent for providing this syntax in the bitstream is to assist decoding systems to properly
interpret and make effective use of the decoded video pictures, e.g., for use by the display process (which is also outside the scope
of this Specification, but for which having an indication of how the pictures should be interpreted is important).


Since the meaning of full is intentionally ambiguous in ITU-T H.265 (above), I would comment that whether you export in full or limited 10b from Resolve, you are always exporting a 10b result. All you are doing in deciding between the two is whether to set black = to 0 or 64, and white = 940 or 1023, i.e. sub-black and super-white.

My way of avoiding the confusion when grading in Resolve is to set the wfm to "full" and then grade between 64 and 940 while visualizing the overshoots (940-1023) and undershoots (0-64) of super-white and sub-black, then rendering as "limited" with checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites checked."
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 6:59 am

Tom Roper wrote:
Capture.JPG

That confirms what Andrews says. x265 is writing all metadata (even the QT tag).
But I was focusing on QT tags, and they may be aren't needed, are they ?
I need to know more about VUI parameters ... If you have links :)
Thanks
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 7:03 am

Tom Roper wrote:My way of avoiding the confusion when grading in Resolve is to set the wfm to "full" and then grade between 64 and 940 while visualizing the overshoots (940-1023) and undershoots (0-64) of super-white and sub-black, then rendering as "limited" with checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites checked."

Whaaaou :o And you leave The level to "Auto" ??
I need to test it
Thanks
EDIT
I can't reproduce what you've told
I'm misconfused by my understanding of Levels :
The black in the waveform will be coded as 64 in deliver page with video levels and 0 with full levels
The black in resolve is represent in the waveform by 64 with video scale and 0 with full scale

So the 64 in wfm full scale isn't black (for resolve). How can you manage to make it black in the deliver page?
What Am I missing ?
Thanks
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 9:45 am

In Resolve everything is full and don't make your life harder by doing some strange setups.
Work in full (never try to grade to 64-940 in scopes!). Full is what you need all the way up to export.
When you export 95% case leave levels to Auto. Only in some specific case you may want to force to limited or full. Regardless what you chose all be fine. You don't grade to limited because you later export to limited. Resolve internal engine is 1 thing and then export is separate.

DV exports may be confusing as Dolby use to scream that DV is based on full levels. They use to advice to force ProRes to full levels, but this has been revised. Keep it on Auto (which will make it limited). For codecs which clearly indicate levels (like h265, DNxHR) you can use full, but always double check.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Mon May 16, 2022 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 9:51 am

Tom Roper wrote:My way of avoiding the confusion when grading in Resolve is to set the wfm to "full" and then grade between 64 and 940 while visualizing the overshoots (940-1023) and undershoots (0-64) of super-white and sub-black, then rendering as "limited" with checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites checked."


Sounds convoluted to me.
If scopes are set to full and you grade to limited then when you export to limited all gets scaled again (to limited). You have retain super/blacks white so this probably stopping 2nd scale, but then on broadcast check you may fail. You let Resolve to pass any super whites/blacks with this approach. Convoluted and dangerous way in my opinion.
All full and then on export you decide what you want:) Resolve does all needed scaling.
Plain simple and protects super whites/blacks sleeping through when it's important.

Scope full= grade to limited and then export to limited= totally wrong end result. This is no go for sure!

Don't think about limited when you grade etc. in Resolve. When you export then think about it. That's it.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 10:22 am

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:
Tom Roper wrote:
Capture.JPG

That confirms what Andrews says. x265 is writing all metadata (even the QT tag).
But I was focusing on QT tags, and they may be aren't needed, are they ?
I need to know more about VUI parameters ... If you have links :)
Thanks


It's good to have them, but in case of DV core info is in h265 private headers as well and this is what may be taken as priority anyway. It really depends on the playback system. Typically container headers are higher priority than video essence ones. Best if both are there and aligned :)
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 12:01 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's good to have them, but in case of DV core info is in h265 private headers as well and this is what may be taken as priority anyway. It really depends on the playback system. Typically container headers are higher priority than video essence ones. Best if both are there and aligned :)

I understand
Thanks
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 12:03 pm

capture 2022-05-16 à 13.59.50.png
capture 2022-05-16 à 13.59.50.png (73.45 KiB) Viewed 507 times

here's piece o FAQ from Dolby Vision Website
It's answering my questions
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Scope full= grade to limited and then export to limited= totally wrong end result. This is no go for sure!

Don't think about limited when you grade etc. in Resolve. When you export then think about it. That's it.

That is also my understanding
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 12:42 pm

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:I can't reproduce what you've told
I'm misconfused by my understanding of Levels :
The black in the waveform will be coded as 64 in deliver page with video levels and 0 with full levels
The black in resolve is represent in the waveform by 64 with video scale and 0 with full scale

So the 64 in wfm full scale isn't black (for resolve). How can you manage to make it black in the deliver page?
What Am I missing ?
Thanks


The wfm scaling doesn't change what you encode, only how you visualize data. When you render output as "video" or limited terminology as I used earlier (same thing) with the checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites," you are outputting 0-1023 just like full. If you don't check the box, everything below and above 64-940 is hard clipped. People from pal countries often misunderstand this.
There is no difference between full 0-1023 and video 0-1023. When the checkbox is checked, you are including the wfm data below 64 and above 940. When the checkbox is cleared you are not. If this was somehow punching holes in the universe, why would Resolve include it? Don't be swayed by one-way pedants, these options exist for a reason.

If you grade with wfm full, there is possibility, even likelihood that some above black data are being clipped because you can't see below the line.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 1:09 pm

Tom Roper wrote:The wfm scaling doesn't change what you encode, only how you visualize data.

I Agree
Tom Roper wrote:When you render output as "video" or limited terminology as I used earlier (same thing) with the checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites," you are outputting 0-1023 just like full. If you don't check the box, everything below and above 64-940 is hard clipped.

I agree


Tom Roper wrote:There is no difference between full 0-1023 and video 0-1023.

:shock:
Not from the same timeline to the deliver page

Tom Roper wrote:If you grade with wfm full, there is possibility, even likelihood that some above black data are being clipped because you can't see below the line.

I agree
but Those invisible values can be exported with Video Levels with the checkbox ON, no ?
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 2:33 pm

Tom Roper wrote:The wfm scaling doesn't change what you encode, only how you visualize data. When you render output as "video" or limited terminology as I used earlier (same thing) with the checkbox for "retain sub-blacks and super-whites," you are outputting 0-1023 just like full. If you don't check the box, everything below and above 64-940 is hard clipped. People from pal countries often misunderstand this.
There is no difference between full 0-1023 and video 0-1023. When the checkbox is checked, you are including the wfm data below 64 and above 940. When the checkbox is cleared you are not. If this was somehow punching holes in the universe, why would Resolve include it? Don't be swayed by one-way pedants, these options exist for a reason.


When video levels are chosen (and no retain sub blacks/whites) then full range from Resolve main engine is scaled to video levels during export which is key difference to full export (basically pass through).
If you set wfm to full and then try to grade to 64-940 levels ad export as limited (no retain super b/w box ticked) you have very bad end result.
No idea what is has to do with PAL countries.

Retain sub black/white is "dangerous" setting (which is for very specific YUV based renders) and should not be typically use it. Way better to use full range based format.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Mon May 16, 2022 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostMon May 16, 2022 2:44 pm

Tom Roper wrote:
If you grade with wfm full, there is possibility, even likelihood that some above black data are being clipped because you can't see below the line.


Which is in many cases (always for broadcast delivery) not a possibility but even desired/mandated thing.
Your main drive when grading is reference preview not scopes. With scopes things can be one edges and you won't necessarily see it. It's really meaningless. Key thing is what you see.

Preserving super w/b on export should be hardly ever used and it's not a setting which should be touched for broadcast delivery. Do you think you can really keep things within 64-940 on scopes? You have same margin of error as trying to keep it in full scale. Nothing different, but when it comes to final end result it's quite different.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostTue May 17, 2022 6:17 am

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:
Tom Roper wrote:If you grade with wfm full, there is possibility, even likelihood that some above black data are being clipped because you can't see below the line.

Olivier MATHIEU wrote:I agree but Those invisible values can be exported with Video Levels with the checkbox ON, no ?


The invisible values will be exported with the checkbox on instead of hard clipped as with the checkbox off.
Last edited by Tom Roper on Tue May 17, 2022 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostTue May 17, 2022 6:30 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:No idea what is has to do with PAL countries.


It has everything to do with NTSC countries because 7.5 IRE setup was an exclusive characteristic of the NTSC broadcast system. 7.5 IRE is NTSC black; the reason we have 64-940 and 16-235.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostTue May 17, 2022 9:09 am

I’m from PAL country and I deal with it like anyone else. Maybe in the past it was different but today limited vs full is the same “problem” which has not much to do with NTSC vs PAL.
The sooner people forget about IRE and start using proper terminology the better. It just adds more confusion.
Limited vs full is not that big deal anyway unless you trying hard to make a problem of it.
You deal with it your way, others in different. I just don’t think your way is advantageous in any aspect and in the same time it can be a reason for problems.
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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostWed May 18, 2022 3:09 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Tom Roper wrote:
Preserving super w/b on export should be hardly ever used and it's not a setting which should be touched for broadcast delivery. Do you think you can really keep things within 64-940 on scopes? You have same margin of error as trying to keep it in full scale. Nothing different, but when it comes to final end result it's quite different.


Preserving super w/b *should not matter* in theory I think we could agree. The problem is that it does matter because black is never completely black on UHDTV displays. Screen black does not completely align with code black. Some UHDTVs will display shades below code black. This has been well established by Spears and Munsil, Kris Deering, Joe Kane and many others. And there are setup disks, DVE, AVS709, Calman, pluge tests that will demonstrate this as well.

As for a setting that should not be touched for broadcast delivery, there are 29 mentions of "broadcast safe" in the 3,981 pages of the DR 18 reference manual. Tools, methods and techniques are described for complying with broadcast safe. Not one of them mentions your caution for not touching the super w/b setting for broadcast delivery. There is in fact a separate checkbox for broadcast safe levels in the project settings. You can agree to disagree if you want, but in my opinion your warnings about it are unwarranted.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Does Resolve Studio support ICtCp color?

PostWed May 18, 2022 10:48 am

Today's broadcast standard is EBU-R103 and basically all stations require files to be complaint with it.
Resolve broadcast safe option has nothing to do with it as it's outdated and based on IRE and designed for analog signal. It should be removed.
This has been discussed many times.
Read stories from this forum were people have files rejected after ticking this useless box in Resolve :)
You need to keep signal within limited range (+ gamut needs to be respected, but Resolve will do it for you). There are thresholds which signal is allowed to go outside (eg. 20–984 in DPP spec), but you will get overshoots moment you use any compression, so you want to stay within ideal levels during grading. Threshold were designed to cover those overshoots not to purposely go outside levels during grading.
If you don't touch retain super b/w you have guarantee no data will be outside ideal levels and even if you get overshoot due to compression you will be covered by thresholds. R103 has been designed this way on purpose.

If you use retain super white/blacks you have basically guarantee that files will be rejected purely on fact that they may have super w/b data, which for broadcast is big no go (even if it's not causing any issues).
TVs behaviour is meaningless here. Properly set TV will show black for YUV signal at 64 and this is your reference point (regardless if there is a super black displayed or not).

Resolve manual is not a guide how to deliver files to broadcast. It doesn't even cover that well all Resolve own features :)

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