Rolling shutter

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Fedorov Vitaly

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Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 3:03 am

Is there a rolling shutter fix plugin in Davinci?
A'm concerned about rolling shutter issue before buying Sony A6300/6500.
Thanks.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 4:38 am

Where are you located? If you are in LA, I have access to an a6300 you can test out. But obviously the trick is to not do fast camera moves in the first place.
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Fedorov Vitaly

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 3:38 pm

I'm located in Saint-Petersburg in Russia :D
There are many negative reviews about A6300 rolling shutter on Youtube.
Do you think it's not an big problem with this camera?
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 4:36 pm

Just accept that it's a thing and embrace the rolling shutter. Any post digital fixes are going to be wonky to different degrees and might create more issues than they solve.
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Christopher Dobey

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Yes moving from the A6500 to the URSA MIN as I didI\ was wonderful in respect to rolling shutter to global shutter. No more getting sick during editing watching so much jello rolling shutter footage.

Using a wide lens significantly cuts down on the rolling shutter effect. I rented the Canon XC10 and the rolling shutter is beyond severe at 89mm but very usable at 8.9mm. I remember at 89mm (considering the 1" sensor is 240mm which is very long) rolling shutter is even noticeable if someone in the center of the frame turns their head too quickly.

I used the rolling shutter reduction in the early versions of final cut pro x but that was so long ago the results wouldn't be relevant.

Stay clear of fences and telephone poles if shooting from a car. Move with your camera instead of panning on a tripod head. Preventive technique can really keep rolling shutter effect to a minimum.
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PeterMoretti

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 8:46 pm

For many subjects, the camera is amazing. Great low light, kind of usable autofocus, the little ******* Sony 50mm 1.8 OSS lens is actually AWESOME.

Overheating IS an issue. What I did was get a cage and then mount thermal conductive silicone to transmit heat off the body and on to the cage. I also added some memory heatsinks to the body. I'll post a picture, it totally solved that problem. I was able to shoot in direct LA sun for hours w/o one overheat.

Another issue is battery life. Get the real Sony batteries. They are more expensive, but they last longer and they work better with the battery meter. But be warned you are going to be changing batteries like rolls of film, lol.

Just don't film fast moving subject or whip pan the camera and you should be okay. I've found with reasonable care, rolling shutter is mostly a non-issue.

I would rank it a distant third behind overheating and battery life.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 5:20 am

Any photographic camera has rolling shutter when used for video.
The A7S (not mark II) is the best when used in windowed mode. All the rest is pretty awful.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Marc Wielage

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 6:40 am

Uli Plank wrote:Any photographic camera has rolling shutter when used for video.

Not the global shutter cameras. There are always exceptions.

The Alexa was the first camera I've ever seen that came up with some tricks to minimize rolling shutter to the point where it doesn't bother me.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 3:03 pm

I was talking about photographic cameras with double use as video/cine cameras. All big digital cine cameras are much better in this respect (and quite a few others).
Which photo camera has no rolling shutter?
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Dermot Shane

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 4:07 pm

NewBlue has a rolling shutter fixer OFX, works as long as the shot is not too bad,

the worse the roling shutter, the worse the atifacts created in the fixing process
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Jason Tackaberry

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 4:57 pm

Dermot Shane wrote:NewBlue has a rolling shutter fixer OFX, works as long as the shot is not too bad
Does that work in Resolve 14? I tried the demo but it didn't show up in the OFX list in either Edit or Color pages so I assumed it wasn't supported.
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Dermot Shane

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 7:53 pm

i am not on v14, i have real world deadlines to meet...
it works in 12.5
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Douglas Beechwood

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostThu Jun 27, 2019 12:23 am

I found that optical flow, under optical flow menu in fusion tools totally knocked out some bad jelloey mountains from a fast tilt up on a recent project. 20 minute render for a 10 second clip -- but it worked perfectly!
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Sam Steti

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostThu Jun 27, 2019 7:01 am

Since you've created a 2 years "outdig" of this thread, could you please elaborate on what you specifically did (though I personally don't have any RS issue, it may be interesting) ?
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Jun 29, 2019 7:28 am

I spotted a technique for minimizing Rolling Shutter artifacts in Adobe CC, but not Resolve per se:

https://www.4kshooters.net/2017/07/29/h ... fectively/

As far as I know, neither BorisFX, Sapphire, Red Giant, or any of the other usual suspects have plug-ins to solve this problem. There are some ways to manually dig into After Effects that can work to a point, but even there it's dicey. (I would bet there are similar fixes in Fusion.)

My best advice for people who run into this problem is not to use cameras with severe rolling shutter problems, like DSLRs or the Sony A7 & A6500. The rolling shutter issues with current Red, Alexa, Sony, and BMD cameras is pretty mild compared to the way it used to be.

If there's a way to use Optical Flow to do this in Resolve, I'd love to hear the step-by-step.
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deBabba

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostTue Dec 17, 2019 5:39 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:....
If there's a way to use Optical Flow to do this in Resolve, I'd love to hear the step-by-step.

Any news on this topic?

I would really like to see some kind of a CMOS Fixer in Resolve as provided along with Mercalli 4 and higher.
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ColtSuperbolt

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 11:41 am

Gonna open up this conversation once again.

Now that Resolve 18 got the gyro stabilization update to BM cameras, could BM use the same Gyro data to do rolling shutter fix for their cameras too? Anyone heard them working such a fix? Especially P6K has very noticeable rolling shutter on full resolution even on modest movement.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 1:27 pm

Well, the gyro stabiliser does a pretty good job reducing RS too, so it should be possible.
But nobody else than BM can tell you if they are working on something – and they won't tell.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Jim Simon

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 2:45 pm

ColtSuperbolt wrote:could BM use the same Gyro data to do rolling shutter fix for their cameras too?
Rolling shutter is caused by a reading out the sensor over time, rather than all at once (global shutter).

I don't believe Gyro changes the readout speed, so I'm not seeing how Gyro can affect anything on this front.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 3:37 pm

Try out gyro stabilisation vs perspective in DR 18.
Gyro results look much better than the ones from optical analysis. Obviously the software can discern distortions by RS from true movement, having the actual motion data.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Dermot Shane

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 8:07 pm

gyro only works on bmd camera's?

i just tested the newblue OFX i mentioned five years ago on v12.5... still works in v18.0.1
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Joe Shapiro

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 8:39 pm

Does it do a good job now on rolling shutter?


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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostFri Aug 12, 2022 8:50 pm

You can do gyro stabilization with Gyroflow, save the file and use it with their plug-in in DR.
This way you can treat any camera that has a gyro (actually an IMU) or use an external device.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Dermot Shane

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 3:01 am

i had a distant memory of Gyroflow, took another look..

98% of the camera's used for what i grade (Alexa, Venice, Red anything) are not on the list

i really don't see much footage from the prosumer cameras listed as supported, but worth having around for when it is needed and can be used

the newblue rolling shutter fixer gets used a few times a year, nothing else to compare it to, it gets marginal shots through QC

send anything challengeing to VFX
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 4:57 am

Well, those cameras shouldn't have too much of RS. But you can use Gyroflow, albeit it's a bit complicated.

– Shoot with a device like a GoPro or a phone fixed to the camera.
- Generate a proxy of the same size as your original footage with a codec read by Gyroflow.
- Sync it with the clip from the other device, normally Auto Sync works.
- Make lens profiles if you don't find them on the net (Gyroflow can do it).
- Tell Gyroflow the readout time.
- Stabilise and export the Gyroflow file.
- Use that on the original footage in DR.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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Sean Nelson

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 6:40 am

Jim Simon wrote:
ColtSuperbolt wrote:could BM use the same Gyro data to do rolling shutter fix for their cameras too?
Rolling shutter is caused by a reading out the sensor over time, rather than all at once (global shutter).

I don't believe Gyro changes the readout speed, so I'm not seeing how Gyro can affect anything on this front.

Gryo data can record which direction the camera was moving as the frames were captured. If you know what direction and how fast the camera was moving, and you know the readout speed of the sensor (and also the focal length), then you can adjust the scan lines to compensate for the rolling shutter.

For example, if the camera was quickly panning left or right, then successive scan lines would be offset horizontally in the image, which means that verticals in the image would appear slanted. Those lines could be shifted back so that vertical edges in the image remain vertical. To do this, you'd have to trim black areas from the sides of the image, similar to the way stabilization works.

But I'd expect that vertical motion would be harder to correct, as would vibration that causes the camera to significantly shift direction or speed during the capture of individual frames.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 7:07 am

That’s going to depend on the number of samples you get from the IMU for a given time.
I found the level of RS compensation quite impressive for all three gyro solutions I tried (BM, Sony and Gyroflow). Even vertical motion is compensated pretty well.
That might be the reason why your image is getting cropped more than with other stabilization solutions.
The software may be free, but the hardware needed for smooth performance is not.

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flipnap

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 2:17 pm

I actually just tested this on a BMPCC6k pro. I did a few whip pans and I cannot believe it. using "gyro" stabilization the RS is almost completely gone, like 99 percent better. I only set the stab amount at like .008 for very little cropping, just to test if "more is better" and it works at that low of a setting. I cannot believe I didnt think about this before but I figured it would not make a difference on RS at all.. thought that it was just for XY stability. Im actually floored. Experimented with BRAW 6K with 180 shutter at 24 FPS, 50mm prime lens.

**EDIT** just a quick edit to this post for those who are new to the gyro stab. you MUST shoot BRAW and if you're using a zoom, you MUST input your focal length setting in the BMPCC that you'll be using. If you zoom to a new focal length, re input the lens data. Also no IS lenses. turn everything off.
Last edited by flipnap on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Simon

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 2:25 pm

Sean Nelson wrote:you can adjust the scan lines to compensate for the rolling shutter.
OK, I'm following now.

John's test above seems to confirm this theory.

That's good news!
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flipnap

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Re: Rolling shutter

PostSat Aug 13, 2022 3:23 pm

So an update. I shot with a FAST shutter to kill motion blur. Used the gyro stab 1st to kill RS and then compounded all the clips and ran the regular stabilizers (transform) on the compound clip. Brought it into fusion and ran an "optical flow" node into a "vector blur" node to get the motion blur back and my goodness. it looks amazing. The handheld shot looks almost like a global shutter on a gimble or tripod. Im usually not much of a "stabilizer addict" but im blown away with what this looks like. ran the final through a CST in color page into the cineon film look LUT in resolve and it's just gorgeous. its a good day

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