Monitor solution for P3 grading (with some questions)

1. You don't have to convert. Most cinemas should be able to screen Rec.709 master. P3 is just a safer option. It's all about cinema setup- they should have and in this case use Rec.709 calibrated channel. Colors should be identical regardless you use P3 conversion or not.

2. Don't worry about description on BM cards. It's bit misleading. If you have P3 capable monitor any BM card will do. Color space in this case is just a flag, but you can always set things manually- set Resolve to P3 and monitor to P3 preset. I don't think there is such a thing like P3 flagging in SDI spec at all.

You don't have to transform then to p3: you go straight from rec 709 too xyz. In projection the reverse conversion will be made but targeting p3, that being a bigger color space will encompass rec 709 and therefore it will look about right. (Minus the contrast, the field of view, the maximum brightness, the lack of surrounding.....)

Thanks a lot Andrew and Walter for your replies.

Ok, after reading all your answers, I selected a maximum of 3 solutions (more or less in the same price range):

1. Decklink Mini Monitor 4K + Eizo CG2730 (under 2000 €);
2. Decklink Mini Monitor 4K + Good 10bit TV (something about 2000 €);
3. Quadro M4000 + LG 31MU97Z-B (under 2000 € card + monitor).

At the bottom you will find an image of the little room where I work, in order to ask you the best solution. You can see the dimensions: the room is larger than deep (about 130cm from my head to the wall with the hanging pictures). The Genelec speakers appears perfectly placed (an equilateral triangle with my head).

3rd SOLUTION
PROS: I'd use a single big monitor, i.e. I'd grade on the GUI (without preview monitor) because in the 4K panel I should see both controls and 2K footage (my videos' def) without scaling it. And I can preserve the speakers' position.
CONS: LG backlight uniformity is a considerable issue (like in most of the 10bit monitors at the same price range). Quadro M4000 is 8GB only, and this would limit my current system (3x TitanX 12GB, that would become M4000 + 2x TitanX).

2nd SOLUTION
PROS: I could hang a big TV on the wall (in place of the pictures), having a dedicated preview quality monitor (for Rec.709 at 10bit). And I can preserve the speakers' position.
CONS: I should position the monitor rather high (so as not to cover it with the GUI monitor), and since the short distance between my head and the wall, it could strain my cervical!

1st SOLLUTION
PROS: Eizo quality! Many color space presets! LUTs, calibration, etc. I'd position it side by side of the GUI monitor, so no cervical strain.
CONS: I can't preserve speakers' position (I should move them away when I grade, or remove the Eizo when I do music... what a bore), and the resolution is just 2K (enough just for my current videos, no future-proof).

Please, guys, give me your advices!
Thanks really a lot.

I would go with option 2, just try to calibrate TV as well as you can (and buy one which is known for good accuracy, like Panasonic). Maybe put TV in the corner.

I would go with option 2, just try to calibrate TV as well as you can (and buy one which is known for good accuracy, like Panasonic). Maybe put TV in the corner.

1. For the distance you see in the room, what size do you recommend? under 50"?

2. I admit I know nothing about TVs. Can someone recommend some specific model (Sony or Panasonic, possibly under 2K €) with good accuracy, 10bit, that can be calibrated?

3. Andrew, why do you prefer TV over Eizo?

Really thanks a lot.

Fairly cheap and good is LG OLED B7 series. I think smallest model is 55inch.

TV vs monitor is more related to type of work which you do. If it's mainly for web then monitor is also good. If you also want to do work for TV (or something which will be watched on TV) then I would say TV is better. Eizo is decent brand for sure ( I think I prefer it the most).

Fairly cheap and good is LG OLED B7 series.

Now that B8 series is out (or almost out), old B7 series seems having good price: LG OLED55B7V costs 1600 € or less.

Anyway, in some forum the owners still talk about light uniformity issues, and Mike Weaver (Company 3) speaks about punched greens in highlights and magenta in shadows. Panasonic OLEDs have LG panel, but seems behaving better (he says). Now, the old Panasonic TX-55EZ950E costs 1900 €. So it's in the same price range of LG.
So for a TV around 2K € (i.e. 1600 to 2300 €) do you still recommend LG over Sony or Panasonic? Why?

About LG, two questions:

1. Which is the best setup to work in Rec.709?

2. Which is the method to calibrate the TV?

Again thanks really a lot.

3. Quadro M4000 + LG 31MU97Z-B (under 2000 € card + monitor).

First off, you can use a Decklink Mini Monitor with the LG. It will do 10bit HDMI, it just doesn't advertise that capability in its EDID. Second, the 31MU97-Z has been end-of-life (EOL) for a year now. You can find a more modern panel with basically the same specs in the LG 32UD99-W. The only downside is you lose a few pixels as the panel is only UHD instead of DCI-4K (so 3840 instead of 4096), but you gain HDMI 2.0 support. Also, in my personal experience, production of the 31MU97-Z was moved from Korea to Taiwan, and QA has suffered as a result. I have two of these screens, one from Korea and one from Taiwan (even the boxes they came in have a slightly different colour) and the one from Taiwan (which was produced more recently) has poorer backlight uniformity and a higher dE from D65 in its factory calibration, so it's hard to match them up together.

As for your question about calibration, you can calibrate a 1DLUT for gamma and greyscale tracking, and use a 3D XYZ LUT to create a gamut mapping, and then combine these into a 3DLUT to load in Resolve using DisplayCAL, for free. This is a decent approach and theoretically sensible, but not perfect.

An ostensibly better solution is to use LightSpace, which will make a straight 3DLUT to calibrate the gamma, greyscale tracking, and gamut mapping in one go. Theoretically this should be the same as the DisplayCAL approach, but in practice it leads to a much better result. However, I personally haven't felt like dropping £1125 for the most basic version that will do what I just described, and when I requested a trial version I got a version of the software that essentially did nothing except let me look at the GUI, but when I tried to do anything (like connect a probe) it would tell me I wasn't licensed to do that, so that was completely useless as a trial of any of the functionality.

You may however be able to find someone who will calibrate your screen for you and supply you with LUTs to use with Resolve using their copy of LightSpace, for a fee. That might be the "cheap, yet good" option here. It also helps that you won't have to learn how to calibrate yourself.

First off, you can use a Decklink Mini Monitor with the LG.

Thanks for your reply Micha. Well, I thought Quadro M4000 + LG monitor intending to use it as single main monitor for GUI, simply previewing in the little window embedded in the GUI (in 4K def, the HD footage should be unscaled, and with Quadro card I can see 10bit GUI-and-preview in OSX). Anyway, I've read many opinions even about LG 32" uniformity issues that worried me a bit.

As for your question about calibration, you can calibrate a 1DLUT for gamma and greyscale tracking, and use a 3D XYZ LUT to create a gamut mapping, and then combine these into a 3DLUT to load in Resolve using DisplayCAL, for free. This is a decent approach and theoretically sensible, but not perfect.
[...]
You may however be able to find someone who will calibrate your screen for you and supply you with LUTs to use with Resolve using their copy of LightSpace, for a fee. That might be the "cheap, yet good" option here. It also helps that you won't have to learn how to calibrate yourself.

Well, I admit I'd like to learn how to do it by myself Is there any tutorial/guide to learn the DisplayCAL method?
And, do you think Xrite i1 Dysplay Pro is a toyish solution compared to LightSpace, or could be a good solution?

Thanks for your reply Micha. Well, I thought Quadro M4000 + LG monitor intending to use it as single main monitor for GUI, simply previewing in the little window embedded in the GUI (in 4K def, the HD footage should be unscaled, and with Quadro card I can see 10bit GUI-and-preview in OSX).

In Resolve, the GUI is always 8 bit. If you want 10 bit, you need a Decklink.

Anyway, I've read many opinions even about LG 32" uniformity issues that worried me a bit.

I wouldn't worry too much. No LCD panel is ever perfect, and you don't (in my experience) eyeball big flat areas and absolute black anyway; the scopes are for that. Backlight uniformity is mostly a cosmetic issue, and it'll bother you the most when you're looking at a pure black screen or 2.35 scope bars, but it won't hinder the quality of your grading.

Well, I admit I'd like to learn how to do it by myself Is there any tutorial/guide to learn the DisplayCAL method?
And, do you think Xrite i1 Dysplay Pro is a toyish solution compared to LightSpace, or could be a good solution?

The documentation on the website is very good. If you are ever stuck understanding a subject, Florian, the author, has a good enough grasp on the subject matter that he can explain it clearly to you, and he's pretty active on the DisplayCAL forums, so don't hesitate to ask a question there.

The i1Display Pro (Colormunki Display) is as good as you're going to get without shelling out $5000 for a Klein K-10. The rabbit hole goes deep, and you need even deeper pockets.

In Resolve, the GUI is always 8 bit. If you want 10 bit, you need a Decklink.

Thanks for your quick reply Micha. Anyway, as far as I know, in OSX (and ONLY in OSX) GUI actually can be 10bit, obviously if your card can handle 10bit (having an hackintosh, Quadro is a good choice, while TitanX can't handle 10bit). There's an answer by Andrew Kolakowski about it.

Fairly cheap and good is LG OLED B7 series.

Now that B8 series is out (or almost out), old B7 series seems having good price: LG OLED55B7V costs 1600 € or less.

Anyway, in some forum the owners still talk about light uniformity issues, and Mike Weaver (Company 3) speaks about punched greens in highlights and magenta in shadows. Panasonic OLEDs have LG panel, but seems behaving better (he says). Now, the old Panasonic TX-55EZ950E costs 1900 €. So it's in the same price range of LG.
So for a TV around 2K € (i.e. 1600 to 2300 €) do you still recommend LG over Sony or Panasonic? Why?

About LG, two questions:

1. Which is the best setup to work in Rec.709?

2. Which is the method to calibrate the TV?

Again thanks really a lot.

LG is good choice when it comes to price.

Panasonic TX-55EZ950E is great TV and calibrates crazy well (overall Panasonic TVs calibrate . Look here:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx55ez95 ... 194485.htm

If you mainly want it for Rec.709 then it's definitely great and I would prefer it over LG. Not sure about price and it also has magenta-tinted blacks in bright rooms as well as tiny uniformity issues. Those issues will be present most likely on every TV at this price range (this will be also one of the main differences between Eizo and LG monitors). This is what makes them consumer TVs, not grading. Step up will be http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx65ez10 ... 134477.htm, but it's another price range.
Another option for you would be trying to get eg. FSI monitor (maybe used one).
You may also want to check this info:
https://calman.spectracal.com/lg-autocal.html
which is quite interesting. Now we will have almost pro calibration in LG home TVs.

You definitely want BM card. Resolve GUI preview, even if it can be 10bit on Mac is still not 100% validated for accuracy. Calibration- don't know much about it, but there are many info on the net. You can get eg. ISF service calibration if it's available in your country. If not I assume you can rent probe and calibrate yourself.

Fantastic infos Andrew, very interesting.
Anyway it's all well over my budget range, honestly.

For what you've written, I remain perhaps a bit unsure between Pana EZ950 vs Eizo CG2730:
-they cost the same;
-Pana is more TVish (better for 709 grading), it's OLED (better for deep shadows), and can be placed on the wall (no wasting space on my table), BUT at that price uniformity and magenta issues are unavoidable;
-Eizo CG2730 has good uniformity and no magenta issue, has more presets than 709 (P3 98% is still interesting, at least as a check before a theatrical reharsal), but it's LED, it's HD only, and it's a riot on my table

I think I'll surely follow your advice on basing my grading on 709 and then finishing in the theatre, but just the possibility of doing a P3 check in Eizo, and the lack of magenta issue, make me feel safe.
Of course this means lacking OLED, big screen size (good for checking masks edges), 4K...

So, I'm still not sure which one to choose...

Is there any other detail/consideration/advice that could take me to go for one side rather than the other?

Thanks a lot.

Those OLEDs also have close to 100% P3 coverage.
I'm not sure, but I think I would go for TV. It's just bit different experience to check things on 50inch TV compared to "small" LCD. Somehow I feel that those TVs are accurate enough today for your type of work and offer more than good LCD monitor. As you said it's also UHD and HDR "capable". I don't think that uniformity issue is such a crazy big deal. Eizo won't have this issue, but in the same time it's not perfect either (black level is not that great and you will have small IPS glow also).
Maybe try to get some used FSI or Sony OLED broadcast monitor.

Ok Andrew, I'm sure, I'll go for Pana OLED. I think to wait until june for the new FZ800. They say P3 is even better the former EZ950 (that was up to 97%) and that we are near 100%. FZ800 should be indentical to the other new FZ950, but with poorer speaker, and this could be an advantage for me: having yet a wonderful couple of Genelec 8330A SAM, I can go for the "cheaper" FZ800 (hoping to remain under 2.5K €, otherwise I'd go for old EZ950).

Just two questions:

1. Calibration:
As you know, does Pana require Calman (too much expensive for me) or can I use the cheaper Xrite i1 Display Pro together with a build-in Pana's calibration sw?

2. Wall color and lights:
My room (the picture I've yet uploaded) is completely white: walls, formica table, chair, and behind the chair a white lacquered wood wall cabinet with a white lacquered upright piano inside... As for lights: a 250cm long ceiling led stripe with trapezoidal diffuser (similar to this) for 70W of about 5000K cold white (forniture quality). At the sides: a window and a windowed door (for the joy of reflections). Clearly not the ideal room for grading... Anyway, what could I do to improve the room? For example, I've read that the wall with the TV should be painted with a special grey color. I know nothing about it, is there a particular paint color and brand to buy in Europe? And is it sufficient to paint only the wall with the TV? And about the light: could I add a dimmer, or not?

Thanks really much

For Rec709 grading you will want dim lights but not darkness. For P3 grading you want to be completely in the dark. D50 is okay but D65 is better. In my opinion, it doesn't matter as long as your screen is large enough; your eyes will adapt to the white point of the screen anyway. When grading P3, the screen will be noticeably greenish at first until your eyes adapt. Oh and set your Resolve GUI to true grey instead of the bluish grey that it defaults to (you'll find it in Preferences).

Thanks Micha for your reply.

For Rec709 grading you will want dim lights but not darkness. For P3 grading you want to be completely in the dark.

So it's better for me adding dim option to the light (I should have made a predisposition years ago...) but the temperature (and the very poor CRI) will not change...

D50 is okay but D65 is better. In my opinion, it doesn't matter as long as your screen is large enough; your eyes will adapt to the white point of the screen anyway.

Do you mean it doesn't matter having a grey painted wall? So, I could maintain white color on the wall.

When grading P3, the screen will be noticeably greenish at first until your eyes adapt. Oh and set your Resolve GUI to true grey instead of the bluish grey that it defaults to (you'll find it in Preferences).

I'll surely do.

My current DELL will be the GUI front monitor, but it has a reflective panel. Once the TV will be on the wall, could the reflective DELL be a problem? Could I simply lower the brightness, or you recommend to change it with a cheap non-reflective new monitor?

Do you think a 55" OLED at 120/130cm from me could damage my eyes? (Awfully silly question...)

Thanks really much

Stop being so paranoid about all of those "ideal" conditions in grading room.
Grading is not about "ideal" room- is about taste and some key skills of the operator. Ideal room won't produce nice images, you have to do it. Many very pro rooms are not ideal at all and it doesn't stop good colorists to make nice videos.
No light from window, dimmed room (with diffused lightings) with no fancy color walls will do. Make sure light from GUI monitor doesn't directly hit your TV and this is it- at leats for me.

Like Andrew said, any neutral colour is fine, so black, grey, white is all the same. A darker colour allows you to have more lights without them affecting screen gamma too much. About gamma; if you grade Rec709 in pitch darkness, you'll tend to make blacks too dark, and get complaints from your clients. And conversely, if you grade P3 with the lights on, you'll suddenly notice blacks are way too elevated when you do a theatre screening.

Do make sure all your screens (including GUI) are calibrated to the exact same white point. If your GUI monitor is set to D65 while your reference monitor is DCI-P3 your eyes will end up in a mixed chromatic adaptation state, which is an unsolved problem in colour science.

After almost one year since last replay in this topic, I decided to go for the Pana FZ800 as reference monitor, but right now many articles and videos appears warning about effective burn-in issue on OLED TVs.

The issue affects mainly the bright-and/or-static parts of the frame.
Now, color grading implies working on a sigle frame for a long time, that frame is then static, dangerous for burn-in attitude of OLED TVs.

Then my question: do you still think an OLED TV is a good choice as reference monitor for grading preview? Someone of you has never used an OLED TV as preview monitor? Could you share your experience about?

Thanks a lot.