Multilayer Keyframe Editing is Gone in V20, Unacceptable

I am just on a project.. I wanna integrate new and few AI features (AI audio mixing and timeline voice-over) in my workflow in v20. But then the main drawback—not gonna say drawback.. it should be there from the beginning—it's stopping me from using v20.

Doing my work in v19 as of right now.. until they fix it in the next beta.

This would be a huge waste of screen space. The image I posted a link to earlier would be better.... Each layer would be represented on the side of the screen with options to view or edit that timeline's keyframes (a simple check box to enable disable, not something buried in a right click menu like they seem fond of doing)...

OK, but Resolve's keyframes are not layer based and in Fusion they are object-based where objects exist for a period of time (up to the composition length) and their properties can change over that period.

On the Edit page, the object is a clip (not a layer) and the clip only exists, typically, for a subset of the composition period (i.e., a clip is shorter than a timeline, where the timeline is the composition).

In Resolve, the model for keyframes seems to be based on those properties of a clip (the 'object') over the duration of the clip length.

I'm wondering (to myself, I suppose) what the paradigm would be for a keyframe editor where the duration is the timeline length but each object may only exist for a short period of that timeline - it's not like you would see clips listed in the left-hand column with keyframes per clip object - you'd want the clips on 'tracks' as layers. It just doesn't work... I can't wrap my head around it, that's all - other than to see the keyframe editor morph into a duplicate of the timeline and that looks a lot like the v19 solution where each clip has its own keyframe / curves editor (the reason for the original design, I suppose).

I'm wondering (to myself, I suppose) what the paradigm would be for a keyframe editor where the duration is the timeline length but each object may only exist for a short period of that timeline - it's not like you would see clips listed in the left-hand column with keyframes per clip object - you'd want the clips on 'tracks' as layers. It just doesn't work... I can't wrap my head around it, that's all - other than to see the keyframe editor morph into a duplicate of the timeline and that looks a lot like the v19 solution where each clip has its own keyframe / curves editor (the reason for the original design, I suppose).

Yeah, I'm also seeing the problem you mention with clips/tracks/layers as well. This is one reason why I changed my earlier suggestion of manually assigning clips to an editor in "Stacked View" to it being done automatically, so each track would be assigned to an editor and populated as you selected more clips. Doing clip-based organization falls apart quickly if you have dozens of short clips on a single track after editing. Having to manage parameters for all of these clips individually would be extremely tedious.

I was still mulling over the side panel, but since you brought it up, I'll give my current thoughts on this...

Instead of having the side panel organized by clips, it might work better to group all of the parameters for the selected clips together and organize them based on tracks. If you select 20 clips on the same track that all have zoom keyframes, you would only see the one parameter for zoom under that track which you can show/hide and edit. If there is a clip that doesn't have keyframes for zoom, then there will be no keyframes over that clip. If half of the selected clips have keyframes for blur, then you'd only see two parameters, Zoom and Blur for all of the selected clips on that track.

When you select clips across different tracks, then you'd see a new list for the next track with all the parameters grouped together for that track.
V1
- zoom
- blur strength
V2
- zoom
- blur strength

There could be 50 clips on each track but if you are only keyframing the same two parameters across all the clips, then you'll only see these two parameters in your side panel. That would simplify things a lot and make it easy to work across multiple clips that have the same effects.

other than to see the keyframe editor morph into a duplicate of the timeline and that looks a lot like the v19 solution where each clip has its own keyframe / curves editor (the reason for the original design, I suppose).

The original design also had a lot of problems though. You still had to open/close the editor for every individual clip (this was very tedious), the editors were inserted into the middle of the timeline putting large gaps in between your clips, there was no way to edit multiple clips at the same time in a single editor, etc.

Even if the new editor ends up mirroring the timeline (laid out by tracks), this would be much better than having a separate editor for every single clip on the timeline.

@Tekkerue @Steve Alexander I totally agree with the ideas—but let’s not overcomplicate things right now.

At this moment, the only agenda should be bringing back multi-layer editing. It’s an essential feature for thousands of DR users around the world.

@Tekkerue @Steve Alexander I totally agree with the ideas—but let’s not overcomplicate things right now. At this moment, the only agenda should be bringing back multi-layer editing.

There really isn't anything more to discuss on that point though. If we stop discussing a better implementation then your thread will likely die off. However, I can certainly start a separate thread to continue this discussion if you want.

If Blackmagic wants to copy the code from V19 to add the old curve editor back in until the new editors are ready, they can certainly do that for now as a temporary patch fix. My only request is that they do not put the curve editor button on the clip and have it be enabled via the right-click menu. That old curve editor button was always in the way when trying to select/edit clips, which was very annoying.

The old curve editor was terrible and I for one do not want to see that be a permanent solution, so I think both should be an agenda. Bring back the old editor for people who need it right now and continue discussing a better implementation with the new editors.

@Tekkerue
I think you misunderstood me, brother. What I meant is—they’re probably not going to implement or make any major changes during the beta stage.

But for the sake of getting work done, maybe they can make a minor change just to bring this feature back temporarily.

Like you, and many others, I consider this feature super important. I wasn’t even using V20 mainly because of this:

1. And Indeed I hate the old editor—just like you do.
2. I don’t want it back.
3. Opening a new thread won’t be prioritized unless you're a BMD member.

So yeah, just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.

What I meant is—they’re probably not going to implement or make any major changes during the beta stage.

The new editors feel like they are in a very early stage of development, so right now is the time I would expect the most changes to be made based on the feedback they receive. A lot of key features are still missing (like multilayer editing you brought up), so I think we should keep pushing to get these features implemented into the new editors now.

But for the sake of getting work done, maybe they can make a minor change just to bring this feature back temporarily.

I agree, they can bring the old curve editor back temporarily (and without that annoying curve editor button on the clips), while we continue to discuss how to work in the features that the old curve editor offered into the new editors. Once the new editors are finished, they can totally replace the old curve editor.

All of the things I've mentioned here have been relevant to the topic of implementing multilayer editing into the new editors. When combining multiple clips into a single editor, there needs to be a good system in place to organize, view, edit, etc. all of the parameters, otherwise things could get messy very fast. So these are the things we are trying to work through.

@Tekkerue Totally agree with this point, brother.

Let’s hope BMD also understands how important this feature is—and realizes how they overlooked such an essential part of the workflow.

They should give us the option to choose between the old system and the new system. While the new system is more intuitive for keyframing a single clip (as of right now) and good at many other tasks with micro-adjustment,

the old system under the timeline is good for speed ramping, and we can adjust based on the timeline—because we can see the timeline as we change the value. It supports multi-layer keyframes, and most importantly, it's just fast to add curves for those who don't need advanced-level micro-adjustments for all of their clips.

Please, BMD, give us the option back—with a little tweak. Like, [b]on the old system, the spline button was nowhere to be found if I just stretched the timeline. Instead, add the Spline and Retime Curve buttons to an individual button

the old system under the timeline is good for speed ramping, and we can adjust based on the timeline—because we can see the timeline as we change the value. It supports multi-layer keyframes, and most importantly, it's just fast to add curves for those who don't need advanced-level micro-adjustments for all of their clips.

All they have to do is add spline editing to the new tineline keyframe editor and you'll have exactly the same functionality as before, but it will be significantly better. There is not a single thing the old system could do that couldn't be done better in the new system.

It would be a waste of everyone's time for them to try to fix the old terrible system and it will never be as good as what they could do with the new system. However, I have no problem with them simply copying/pasting the old version back in just for now until the new editors are able to take over the same tasks. I agree they removed the old method before the new one was ready. But I want to stress that bringing the old editor back should only be a temporary patch fix, not a permanent solution.

The new editors are the way forward, that is where Blackmagic should put their efforts.

I completely agree with you...but I want my re time Curve Back...Its was faster to do that in under timeline.
Its great to to have the ability to both, I think, That's all

Hello fellows, I’m certainly new here.
Just giving my introduction — I work at a media company called TAXO Media, mainly focusing on 3D motion for games and movies.

Our workflow heavily involves DaVinci Resolve — for color grading, cutting, matching effects, and post work alongside Houdini.

Recently, Resolve 20 introduced a few features that really caught my eye — especially the new Music Remixer and the long-awaited Keyframe Editor.

But honestly, I’m biting my lip right now in frustration. I’m not able to see multi-layer keyframes, as shown by the author of the announcement post...

This is completely breaking our workflow. I mean — how could such an important update to the Keyframe Editor be released in such an unfinished state? Many editors like myself are now totally stuck, and some are even considering downgrading back to v19.

Yes, the old editor in Resolve 19 had its flaws, but at least it got the job done.

Please, BMD — this isn’t just a request; it has to be a bug or something that will be addressed in an upcoming beta. It’s just not acceptable from my favorite company.

I agree, they can bring the old curve editor back temporarily (and without that annoying curve editor button on the clips), while we continue to discuss how to work in the features that the old curve editor offered into the new editors. Once the new editors are finished, they can totally replace the old curve editor.

Davinci V19 Multilayer Keyframe editing was ok at best, it never allowed for selecting keyframes across more than one layer or more than one clip on the same layer which I have always found very restrictive coming from Avid. You should be able to lasso to select keyframes across multiple clips and layers. In avid you can hide/show these keyframes to the left of your timeline beside the track selector. (I wouldn't put this into a right click menu unless this can be assigned to a shortcut and def not on the clip that was super annoying).

This is the setup on avid which works pretty well, I wonder if something like this could work instead of the keyframe tray still keeping the new fullscreen keyframe editor and panel:

IMG_0211.JPG (341.41 KiB) Viewed 1243 times

I wouldn't put this into a right click menu unless this can be assigned to a shortcut and def not on the clip that was super annoying.

I only suggested that as part of a temporary solution of bringing the old curve editors back just so people have something to use for now.

This is the setup on avid which works pretty well, I wonder if something like this could work instead of the keyframe tray still keeping the new fullscreen keyframe editor and panel:

That is for audio volume/FX automation, which is a different thing entirely. For video effects I would prefer to have the spline editing in the lower panel instead of on individual tracks.

@JHEdit7 I also agree with you — they should at least give us the option to choose.
Both types of panels have their own advantages and weaknesses, but at least with the previous panel, we could get the job done much faster.

Now, since the new one is not fully implemented, we really can’t do much.
If DaVinci Resolve just wants to do zoom effects for clips, then sure — this new keyframe editor works fine for that.

But previously, for speed ramping, the Retime Curve was freaking good!
I at least want the Retime Curve option back.

No offense @Tekkerue, but I just want my Retime Curve back for the time being.
Even though I’ve had a love–hate relationship with the old editor — at least it got the job done.

No offense @Tekkerue, but I just want my Retime Curve back for the time being.
Even though I’ve had a love–hate relationship with the old editor — at least it got the job done.

None taken, I do agree with you that they should bring the old editors back for the time being because the new editors are not ready to take over those tasks. But IMO that should only be temporary while they continue to work on the new editors. And again, I don't want that annoying button back on the clips. That thing drove me nuts. I think right-click menu or even a shortcut for now will be fine until the new editors are finished.

Both types of panels have their own advantages and weaknesses, but at least with the previous panel, we could get the job done much faster.

Currently that is the case but only because the new editors are not able to take over the same tasks yet. However, the way I envision it in my head, once the new editors are finished there is nothing the old curve editors could do that couldn't be done in the new editors (and done way better IMO). So the way I see it, Blackmagic would be wasting time trying to manage another clip-based system for doing the exact same task and it would never be as good.

And like I mentioned earlier in this thread, after the new editors are finished, I would love to see the new keyframe/spline editors replace the editors in Fusion as well. Reusing the same piece of code in multiple places will make things so much simpler for them to fix bugs and add new features since they will only have to change it once. They should be consolidating and making things simpler, not expanding and making things more difficult for them.

I would love to show you what's in my head, but trying to create a video from scratch demonstrating it would be an insane amount of work... best I can do is some MS Paint images to try to get my ideas across.

Grant said that version 20 has a new code. So it's a work in progress.

Ric Marty

@Ric Marty Thanks, finally Some good news

Hey brother, in the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters event), they said Resolve has new code, but no one has acknowledged this in the BMD forums or communications.

I’m genuinely surprised—how could they ignore this? Over 10,000 edits have been affected in our industry. I don’t want to move to version 20 because of this blunder.

Please, BMD, give us the option to use the old methods.

Please, BMD, give us the option to use the old methods.

I will add that the iPad version of DR in V20 no longer has ANY key frames viewer / editor.
The old editor is no longer available via the little button on the bottom right of each timeline clip.

And neither of the two new key frame editor windows are accessible. There is no button to the right of “Media Pool” and “Effects” at the top. And there is no keyframe viewer button in the upper left corner of the timeline viewer, to the right of the pop-up menu of timeline configuration options (such as video and audio track heights).

I know screen real estate is limited, but it is a drag to have NO key frames editor (aside from setting individual key frames in the Inspector).

If I am mistaken, let me know.