Final Explanation of Gamma and Color Shift Problems

Apologies for my ignorance, but I'm still confused about a central point. Let's say one has done everything right - graded on a hardware calibrated monitor fed by the signal from an appropriate BMD box, then applied the proper NCLC tags. Will the resulting video file look the same when played back on platforms subject to Apple color management and on windows platforms not subject to Apple color management? I know that people will be watching on all sorts of messed up screens in all sorts of viewing environments, there's nothing we can do about that, but put that aside. If we take the same screen, viewed in the same environment, and feed it a video file played by an Apple color managed app running on an Apple device, and then feed it the same video file running on a non-Apple device, will the image on the screen look the same both times?

Apologies for my ignorance, but I'm still confused about a central point. Let's say one has done everything right - graded on a hardware calibrated monitor fed by the signal from an appropriate BMD box, then applied the proper NCLC tags. Will the resulting video file look the same when played back on platforms subject to Apple color management and on windows platforms not subject to Apple color management? I know that people will be watching on all sorts of messed up screens in all sorts of viewing environments, there's nothing we can do about that, but put that aside. If we take the same screen, viewed in the same environment, and feed it a video file played by an Apple color managed app running on an Apple device, and then feed it the same video file running on a non-Apple device, will the image on the screen look the same both times?

giving the right tags, it will be "close enough".

giving the right tags, it will be "close enough".

And with Display color managed player on both Side
VLC isn't Display color managed by default ➧ client's VLC state

Display Color managed = Taking account of NCLC tag's to colormanage to Display "ColorSpace/Profile"

If color in not managed then pure fact that Mac displays are about P3 gamut gives you oversaturated colors.
It has to be color managed preview.
You can't have perfect preview without color management on the display as we are not anymore just within Rec.709 gamut. Content and displays use bigger gamuts today, so it's about impossible get 1:1 mapping without management.

giving the right tags, it will be "close enough".

My project was graded in a dim room on a monitor calibrated to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 with a brightness of 100 cd/m2 (it also looks fine viewed in a brighter environment on the same monitor calibrated to Rec. 709 Gamma 2.2 with a brightness of 120 cd/m2).

Is there any consensus at this point about which tags would be properly read by the largest number of applications within both Apple and Windows environments to generate an image that wold be "close enough"? Is the best bet the 1-13-1 tag suggested by Danielle Siragusano, which I believe identifies an SRGB image with 2.4 gamma? My understanding is that he recommends this tag because it will look correct in color-managed applications, and is also more likely to look ok in non-color-managed applications since most screens out in the world are SRGB.

1-13-1 as any other tag is basically pointless as YT will overwrite it to 1-1-1 anyway.
Grade to calibrated screen to 2.4 or 2.2, export with standard 1-1-1 tag and that's it. No much more you can do if you want "global settings".
On Mac you can suggest to users to watch it over copy of ref BT.1886 mode with brightness which suits them (100nit is way too dim for home use).
I don't think most screen today are sRGB. TVs won't be, Macs are not and no idea about PCs.

Will the resulting video file look the same when played back on platforms subject to Apple color management and on windows platforms not subject to Apple color management?

Due to Apple's color managed interpretation of Rec.709 tagged video and the lack of comparable color management in SDR on the PC/Android side, it is not possible to get a Mac and a PC to deliver the exact same image on YouTube. As others have noted, getting relatively close is as good as it gets. In general, the same YouTube image on macOS/iOS displayed via a color managed browser/app, is generally going to appear with slightly higher gamma and slightly less saturation relative to its appearance on an unmanaged sRGB display on PC.

1-13-1 as any other tag is basically pointless as YT will overwrite it to 1-1-1 anyway.

Thanks Andrew! But I'm primarily interested in commercial streaming platforms other than YouTube. Are other platforms likely to overwrite or ignore a 1-13-1 tag? I'm thinking not only of the bigger ones like Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Tubi, but also smaller niche streamers.

In general, the same YouTube image on macOS/iOS displayed via a color managed browser/app, is generally going to appear with slightly higher gamma and slightly less saturation relative to its appearance on an unmanaged sRGB display on PC.

Thanks Jamie! However, I thought it was the other way round. If I compare the same video file on my Mac played on the QuickTime viewer (color managed by Apple Color Sync) and played on VLC (not color managed), it appears a bit darker and with significantly higher contrast when viewed on VLC. Apologies if I'm confused; you know a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Thanks Jamie! However, I thought it was the other way round. If I compare the same video file on my Mac played on the QuickTime viewer (color managed by Apple Color Sync) and played on VLC (not color managed), it appears a bit darker and with significantly higher contrast when viewed on VLC. Apologies if I'm confused; you know a lot more about this stuff than I do.

What you see in VLC on macOS on Apple's display hardware is not what you would see on a PC. But even then, what you are seeing tracks — the same Rec.709 tagged file when color managed on macOS appears brighter and less saturated than when it is not color managed on the same display (though some of the extra saturation in the case of comparing managed to unmanaged on macOS is also a result of Apple displays being P3, which adds to the appearance of saturation when Rec.709 is displayed unmanaged).

Although these videos have already been posted more than once in this thread, I will post them again and highly recommend watching both as they are the clearest and most detailed explanation of SDR video display on both macOS and unmanaged PC/Android.

1-13-1 as any other tag is basically pointless as YT will overwrite it to 1-1-1 anyway.
Grade to calibrated screen to 2.4 or 2.2, export with standard 1-1-1 tag and that's it. No much more you can do if you want "global settings".
On Mac you can suggest to users to watch it over copy of ref BT.1886 mode with brightness which suits them (100nit is way too dim for home use).
I don't think most screen today are sRGB. TVs won't be, Macs are not and no idea about PCs.

I will follow this advice: 1-1-1, and forget about it.

Someone once told me: “if Apple, Disney and netflix did not fix this problem, you at home are not going to fix it.”

Someone once told me: “if Apple, Disney and netflix did not fix this problem, you at home are not going to fix it.”

I completely agree that as individuals we have little hope of solving all this.
As for Disney, Apple and Netflix, those companies don't have to worry about even trying to fix web video because they have their own mobile/TV apps and other OTT delivery systems to be able to control the image on consumers screens. As far as I've seen, those apps deliver a correct image on Apple devices.
It is those delivering only (or mainly) to YouTube who get bitten by these problems of NCLC tags and web/computer video.

What % watches Netflix etc. on TVs vs laptops?
I don’t even have TV in my new house

What % watches Netflix etc. on TVs vs laptops?
I don’t even have TV in my new house

I still do, i have a 65” but i will get a 77” with full 5.1 sound…

It’s nice, couch, beer and all…

What % watches Netflix etc. on TVs vs laptops?
I don’t even have TV in my new house

According to the most recent stats I could find, an overwhelming majority are watching Netflix on a TV, with the remainder a roughly even split between phones/tablets vs desktops/laptops.
https://truelist.co/blog/netflix-statistics/

On that browser based viewing, I have to run a test to be sure, but it looks to me like Netflix is adding a transform to the stream sent to the browser to account for the difference between BT.1886 and the 2.2 gamma of virtually all computer displays, including Apple's. That doesn't fully account for the transform that ColorSync applies to 1-1-1 input, but its not near as much difference as what happens when people are managing for 2.4 gamma in the Resolve GUI and viewing that image directly against 1-1-1 on YouTube in a browser on Apple devices.

I still do, i have a 65” but i will get a 77” with full 5.1 sound…

It’s nice, couch, beer and all…

As it should be. Right on. For the 77" are you going with tried and true WOLED, or with one of the newer QD-OLED?

What % watches Netflix etc. on TVs vs laptops?
I don’t even have TV in my new house

I still do, i have a 65” but i will get a 77” with full 5.1 sound…

It’s nice, couch, beer and all…

TV lies and there is about nothing new and nice on Netflix

I still do, i have a 65” but i will get a 77” with full 5.1 sound…

It’s nice, couch, beer and all…

As it should be. Right on. For the 77" are you going with tried and true WOLED, or with one of the newer QD-OLED?

Not sure yet, I like the new sony a95L, but also the C3 LG are really good…

TV lies and there is about nothing new and nice on Netflix

Did you tune in FoxNews?

News? It's not news anymore- it's politics
There is a news and on every channel it sounds differently based on who supports/rules given station.
I'm sure USA isn't any different, neither is BBC etc. It's all regime TVs, just a modern version

Life without a TV is better place

Sure, with all that YT crap?

I see us all going to get OT, so we can soon celebrate the 20th page of this thread with the word "final" in its title

(Because we can't let this thread die out until it reaches at least 20 pages...)

As mentioned previously, I'm preparing to export a feature-length documentary to a streaming aggregator. I obviously have no control over or knowledge of how the resulting file will be viewed - via a web browser or via a proprietary app, on a PC, on a Mac, on a TV, etc etc.

Having spent a lot of time with this thread, after grading on an Eizo monitor hardware calibrated to Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 viewed in a dim room and fed by an Ultra Studio Monitor 3G box, I'm planning to simply export a ProRes 422HQ Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 file tagged 1-1-1. It will look like cr*p when viewed on any Mac application managed by Apple ColorSync, but that's just the way it goes. Before I send out the file however, I wanted to check with more knowledgeable folks that the discrepancy I'm seeing between the file played via Quicktime on a Mac and the file played via Resolve or virtually any PC application is no worse than what you'd expect. If there does seem to be a bigger discrepancy than usual, then there may be a problem with my workflow.

Here's a screen shot from the exported file played on Quicktime on my Mac. It appears comparatively washed out as one would expect:

Screen Shot from exported file played via Quicktime on a Mac

Screen Shot 2024-04-11 at 5.20.16 PM.jpg (711.99 KiB) Viewed 319 times

And here's a screenshot of the same file played in Resolve. This matches almost exactly what I see through the UltraStudio 3G box into my reference monitor, as well as when I view the file on a PC plugged into my reference monitor using Windows 11 Media Player or uploaded to Youtube and viewed through any Windows browser.

Screen Shot from exported file played via Resolve on a Mac

Screen Shot 2024-04-11 at 11.41.27 PM.jpg (662.71 KiB) Viewed 290 times

It's a bit hard to tell given the small sizes of the images and the bright white surround (and yes the foreground figures are supposed to be in near-silhouette), but does the the QuickTime screen shot look flatter than you would expect, or would you say the difference is about normal?

Thanks for any feedback!