60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

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SantenPlu

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60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 3:16 pm

I have shot some clips on the bmpcc 4k with 60fps off speed on a 24fps project.

In Resolve i put the clips on a 24fps timeline and they are playing back perfectly fine in slow motion.
Audio is of course out of sync because audio is playing in real time and picture is slowmo.

Now, i want to playback some of the clips in real time on the 24fps timeline with audio in synch.
I tried to change clip attributes from 24 fps to an other fps which results in "media offline"!!!
(i also encountered this problem some versions before).

Is there an easy way to do it?


Windows 10/ i7 / rtx 2070 / resolve 16.1
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 3:37 pm

After changing the frame rate in clip attributes, it goes offline in the timeline, probably because of timing errors. You just have to edit it in again.

The sound will never be in sync when using off-speed frame rates, even if you change the clip attribute rate to the 60fps off-speed rate.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 3:52 pm

If you don't want speed cane you just drag your 60p footage into 24p timeline (and don't let Resolve to adjust it), but this has side effects.
You have fps mismatch and Resolve needs to interpolate frames. You control this in project setting- you have few choices. Most likely you want motion adaptive interpolation as other 2 will give jerky or blurry results,. Motion adaptive technique is not perfect either as it can introduce side effects as well. In other words- fps interpolation is a tricky business and you should aways shoot in fps which you going to edit and deliver at.
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 3:56 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you don't want speed cane you just drag your 60p footage into 24p timeline (and don't let Resolve to adjust it), but this has side effects.
You have fps mismatch and Resolve needs to interpolate frames. You control this in project setting- you have few choices. Most likely you want motion adaptive interpolation as other 2 will give jerky or blurry results,. Motion adaptive technique is not perfect either as it can introduce side effects as well. In other words- fps interpolation is a tricky business and you should aways shoot in fps which you going to edit and deliver at.


This is not regular 60fps footage -- it's an off-project rate, offered by some BMD cameras. If it's edited into a 24fps timeline and the project rate of the camera is 24fps, it will run at 24fps -- in slow motion. If it's changed to 60fps in clip attributes, it will look more or less "normal" speed in a 24fps timeline.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 4:07 pm

Sorry, this is different then :)
I'm not a fun of those off-speed shooting settings. It just creates more confusion than good things. You can always assume fps at source level.
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bruce alan greene

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 4:13 pm

In the future, if you want to shoot HFR and have the option of playing it realtime in a 24fps timeline, then shoot in a multiple of 24 such as 48fps or 96fps. This will avoid the difficulties with frame interpolation later.
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SantenPlu

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:12 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you don't want speed cane you just drag your 60p footage into 24p timeline (and don't let Resolve to adjust it), but this has side effects.
You have fps mismatch and Resolve needs to interpolate frames. You control this in project setting- you have few choices. Most likely you want motion adaptive interpolation as other 2 will give jerky or blurry results,. Motion adaptive technique is not perfect either as it can introduce side effects as well. In other words- fps interpolation is a tricky business and you should aways shoot in fps which you going to edit and deliver at.


Hi Andrew, thank you for the tip. But we see framerate conversion the whole day when watching 25fps/50i content on pc monitors or cell phones which are at 60 Hertz.
It´s just done in real time with push/pull method by doubling or leaving out some frames.
Thats why i thougt there is just an easy switch in Resolve to bring the footage down to real time.
It´s not perfect but most people don´t notice.

Optical flow or similar is more for fake slow motion and very time consuming and introduces some artifacts as you mentioned.
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SantenPlu

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:14 pm

bruce alan greene wrote:In the future, if you want to shoot HFR and have the option of playing it realtime in a 24fps timeline, then shoot in a multiple of 24 such as 48fps or 96fps. This will avoid the difficulties with frame interpolation later.


Thank you, you are right 48fps or 96fps would make more sense to perfectly match frames.
But how to get the audio back in synch?

I thought there is an easy switch in Resolve because the HFR feature is from there own camera.
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:29 pm

Again, there is no audio sync with HFR, regardless of playback rate.
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SantenPlu

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 5:57 pm

John Paines wrote:Again, there is no audio sync with HFR, regardless of playback rate.


Again, i´m asking for a solution.

If it´s not possible by Resolve settings i would try do it by hand.

Technically the file is a 60fps video with an audio track. Only the meta settings/flags in the video file tell Resolve to play it slow motion. So wouldn´t be a problem for Resolve to play at real time at time line fps (with pull/push) if there were a working setting.
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:02 pm

"Technically"? If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the manual:

NOTE When ‘off speed frame rate’ is selected the audio and video are no longer
synced. This is true even if you set the same project and sensor frame rate. For this
reason, avoid selecting ‘off speed frame rate’ if you want to guarantee audio syncing.


Any kind of sync you can achieve will have to be done manually, section by section, for as long as the adjustments holds.
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SantenPlu

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 6:56 pm

John Paines wrote:"Technically"? If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the manual:

NOTE When ‘off speed frame rate’ is selected the audio and video are no longer
synced. This is true even if you set the same project and sensor frame rate. For this
reason, avoid selecting ‘off speed frame rate’ if you want to guarantee audio syncing.


Any kind of sync you can achieve will have to be done manually, section by section, for as long as the adjustments holds.


This is what i said. Maybe you should read before "screaming quote" things.
Do you get that there is no magic mis-synch. It´s just the meta settings of the file which have to be interpreted differently.
It´t wouldn´t be a problem for Resolve to do it automatically instead telling you do it by hand. It´s an easy operation!
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 7:05 pm

What I said is, and what the manual makes clear, is that there *is* no sync. It will likely drift, even after you "sync" it manually. The only question is how long it will hold, if at all.

But I'm sure BMD engineers will be delighted to learn that what you want is an "easy operation".
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SantenPlu

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 7:29 pm

John Paines wrote:But I'm sure BMD engineers will be delighted to learn that what you want is an "easy operation".


Of course it´s easy and no enlightment needed.
It´s the same than putting normal 60fps (not HFR) in a 24fps time line. Content will be played in real time not in slow mo.
The 60fps HFR file is essentially the same file only with other meta data/flags which tells Resolve to interpret the footage as 24fps slowmo. Thats it.

And therefore i wondered why it cant´t changed easily and the "clip attribute" setting seems to be broke in this case (it works in AE and PR).
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John Paines

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 7:43 pm

Okay, for the last time: it's not the same, as you insist over and over again.

When you record off-speed frame rates, audio is not synced to *any* frame rate. Not the project frame rate and not the off-speed rate. The audio drifts. On what principles, I couldn't tell you. But you don't have to take my word for it. Refer to the manual, which explains that even if the project and off-speed frame rates are the same, the audio won't be in sync when recording in off-speed.
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Intelex

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostMon May 18, 2020 12:36 pm

Here's what worked for me (it's a bit tedious):

1. Create a new timeline with the same settings as the HFR clip(s) (Timeline frame rate = 60)
2. Color grade as needed
3. Export with a 60 FPS timeline
4. Import this new video file back into the original 24p timeline you wanted to use it in. Now audio has been synced

I admit when I did this I hade some weird thing happen. Which is I had to change the clip speed to 120fps as I know for certain I shot it in 120, but the metadata in Davinci kept saying it was 60fps. Either way, worked for me, hopefully it helps someone.
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Intelex

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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostMon May 18, 2020 12:42 pm

Follow up to my last comment:

You can skip the export step all together, and just drag and drop the 60fps timeline right into the actual 24fps timeline you're working in. Any changes you make to the 60fps timeline will auto update the clip you dragged in. Think nesting.
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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostFri Jul 30, 2021 4:15 pm

If you mistakenly shoot HFR 60fps and you wanted it to be correct in 24fps I have found the following solution is quick and works decently.

In FCPX, Detach Audio. Change the speed of the video file (only) to 250%. Then the audio will be mostly synced. If you don't have too much footage to deal with, you should be able to line up the audio correct. You may have to break your clip into short segments and resync it periodically. The "sync" will not hold up for long periods of playback.
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Re: 60fps HFR to 24fps timeline without slow motion

PostSat Jul 31, 2021 1:48 am

Intelex wrote:Follow up to my last comment: You can skip the export step all together, and just drag and drop the 60fps timeline right into the actual 24fps timeline you're working in. Any changes you make to the 60fps timeline will auto update the clip you dragged in. Think nesting.

In Resolve, I'd add that you'll need to experiment with the Retime adjustments on the Config settings. I think Optical Flow + Enhanced Faster will yield acceptable results a lot of the time, if your computer has got the resources. Note that 60fps -> 24fps is kind of a worst-case scenario, particularly if there's a lot of horizontal movement, which can lead to weird strobing and stuttering under some conditions. I think 48fps or 72fps is a safer choice, because as an even multiple, the math is easier for the speed interpolating that needs to take place.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood

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