Blackmagic Forum

Hey everyone!

How in the world can I create a non-square-pixel timeline/project larger than SD resolution?
I have a project shot on the DVX100a and ALL the footage will be from this camera (all SD no mixing of resolutions) however I want the project in a 2k timeline for several reasons (subtitles, and possible "scaling up" to name a few). However every time I select, or attempt to make a "custom" timeline that is outside the "bounds" of what SD non-square-pixel ratio is I loose the ability to select 4:3 as the pixel aspect ratio.

Any suggestions?
To be clear I am attempting to make a:

1. -- 2k timeline with ONLY SD footage
2. -- I want to keep the 4:3 aspect ratio
3. -- I am open to workaround methods or suggestions outside of DR but would prefer to stay in DR if possible.

Thanks!

You need a 4:3 frame aspect with square pixels. Try this setting:

Thanks for the quick reply Peter, But won't square pixels change the entire "shape" of the image from it's original non-square-pixel aspect ratio? OR are you suggesting that by keeping the resolution in the 4:3 aspect ratio it doesn't matter what shape the pixels are?

Please clarify! and thanks!

See here:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=105534

Thanks for the link there Max, and excuse my slow uptake but was the big takeaway from your thread there that it is less about the timeline attributes than it is about the clips attributes? Which btw was a big help for me as I kept looking for a lot of those options/setting in the project/timeline setting, and didn't think about it being in the clip settings.

Am I also understanding correctly that this needs to be done before the clips populate the timeline?
If that is true I am curious how importing a Premiere Pro timeline (via FCP XML) would change this process?

Should I:

1. Make a 2048 x 1556 Full Aperture timeline (Like @Peter Cave suggested) w/ Enable video field processing
2. Set my Super scaling setting for 3X
3. Import my FCP XML from Premiere into DR (this is where I get a bit confused as well as I think doing this DR will try and force the timeline attributes from Premiere right?)
Question -- So as I understand it, I need to change the clip attributes BEFORE populating the timeline with the clips (so for me it would be NTSC DV 23.976 / Allow Deinterlacing / Upper Field) BUT.... how would one do that and keep the edit in tact.

Sorry for being slow but this is a bit confusing for me

I'm sorry Shawn, but I don't know.

Here's what I suggest:
Either try different inputs, or wait for a "specialist" response?

Sorry I don't have a better answer...

You'll end up with window boxing. That's expected when using 4:3 material in a 16:9 world. Just leave the black, don't try to get rid of it.

Jim Simon wrote:You'll end up with window boxing. That's expected when using 4:3 material in a 16:9 world. Just leave the black, don't try to get rid of it.

You misunderstand what he's saying. It's his pixels that have the aspect ratio 4:3, like a 1.33x anamorphic lens, which will project a picture that's squeezed horizontally. The captured image can still be, say, 1920x1080, but if you display it with 1920x1080 square pixels it will look all squeezed.

Now, you can of course unsqueeze it by resizing it to 2560x1080, and then it will look normal, but then you're using 33% more pixels than necessary, and it will also create lines of artifacts where pixels have been interpolated, so that's not good.

The right way to do it is to have a timeline where pixels are 4:3 instead of 1:1.

The question is, how can we do this in Resolve?

msundman wrote:The right way to do it is to have a timeline where pixels are 4:3 instead of 1:1.
The question is, how can we do this in Resolve?

You are correct msundman! that is what I am asking, and actually I never did really find out the best way to do this and put this project aside as I had other work to do but will be revisiting it next week so your timing on this follow-up is perfect.

On top of what msundman clarified keep in mind I NEED this to ultimately be in a 2k+ timeline and while I see you can do a SD timeline for a native 4:3 ratio things get grayed out for the presets above SD and if I simply entered in a HD/UHD 4:3 Ratio that still doesn't account for the pixel shape (whose box is grayed out) Or am I missing something obvious?

Shawn Convey wrote:You are correct msundman! that is what I am asking, and actually I never did really find out the best way to do this and put this project aside as I had other work to do but will be revisiting it next week so your timing on this follow-up is perfect.

Hey, did you ever find out how to work with anamorphic pixels?

Shawn Convey wrote:Hey everyone!

How in the world can I create a non-square-pixel timeline/project larger than SD resolution?
I have a project shot on the DVX100a and ALL the footage will be from this camera (all SD no mixing of resolutions) however I want the project in a 2k timeline for several reasons (subtitles, and possible "scaling up" to name a few). However every time I select, or attempt to make a "custom" timeline that is outside the "bounds" of what SD non-square-pixel ratio is I loose the ability to select 4:3 as the pixel aspect ratio.

Any suggestions?
To be clear I am attempting to make a:

1. -- 2k timeline with ONLY SD footage
2. -- I want to keep the 4:3 aspect ratio
3. -- I am open to workaround methods or suggestions outside of DR but would prefer to stay in DR if possible.

Thanks!

You don't, unless you create a files for web etc., then simply use any chosen resolution with 4x3 proportions.
Please stop creating some made up formats, like non-square HD+ resolution files.

If it's HD, 2K, UHD etc. for broadcast/cinema just insert 4x3 into standard frame sizes and add bars on sides.

Upscaling makes sense if you are producing HD/2K/UHD content and have archive SD footage which needs to go there.
If you just have SD files and want to archive them for future viewings then better to stay with SD (just convert them to square pixels). Even good upscaling gains you not that much (compared to TVs'/players' upscale), except waaay bigger end files (and way longer transcoding). It's just not worth it.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Please stop creating some made up formats, like non-square HD+ resolution files.
If it's HD, 2K, UHD etc. for broadcast/cinema just insert 4x3 into standard frame sizes and add bars on sides.

Ok, but I don't think, and certainly wasn't intending to "make up" formats. And I may have been unclear in my question due to inexperience with working with SD footage but the issue has been revolving around pixel shape and the changing of said pixel shape in different timelines. to be clear - this is NOT a case where I am using 'some' SD footage in a HD project, this is a full film all shot with one SD camera with no other footage than SD footage. this is not stock archival footage but original footage shot by me years ago.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:If you just have SD files and want to archive them for future viewings then better to stay with SD (just convert them to square pixels).

Not the case, I am editing a film for the first time all with SD footage, it isn't for archiving it is for distribution. I am wanting to upscale due to the technological possibilities now seem to suggest it is possible and also because SD is not always accepted and definitely not desired as a format today.

Shawn Convey wrote:Thanks for the quick reply Peter, But won't square pixels change the entire "shape" of the image from it's original non-square-pixel aspect ratio? OR are you suggesting that by keeping the resolution in the 4:3 aspect ratio it doesn't matter what shape the pixels are?

Please clarify! and thanks!

Source clip pixel aspect ratio is not affected by the Timeline pixel aspect ratio.
Only certain SD (and some HDV) formats are specified to have non-square pixels. All other HD sizes and above are specified to have square pixels unless dealing with specific anamorphic workflows.
Basically there is no non-square pixel video format that any player will understand and display correctly.

Thanks but I have the "non-square pixel" type. It was all shot on a DVX100a in 24p.
When I have brought the footage into timelines other than a SD timeline the image has been distorted.

I am very aware that I may be doing something wrong from the onset, which is precisely why I came here in the first place But to be honest I have stated this post quite some time ago and have been distracted with many other projects in-between (and have become more comfortable in DR in the process) so I really need to re-open and explore these file a bit more before I trouble any of you any more with specifics. thx!

Peter Cave wrote:All other HD sizes and above are specified to have square pixels unless dealing with specific anamorphic workflows.

Just because certain ITU-R specs dictate square pixels doesn't mean non-square ones aren't used. A lot of content is shot with anamorphic optics, and it's often desirable to refrain from interpolating the captured data.

Peter Cave wrote:Basically there is no non-square pixel video format that any player will understand and display correctly.

Actually many (most?) popular video players support a wide variety of DARs and PARs, including completely custom ones specified in a variety of ways. Both various bitstreams and most modern container formats support multiple different PAR/DAR forms.

Also, letterboxing (black bars) is pure evil! Even worse than vertical video!

Shawn Convey wrote:Not the case, I am editing a film for the first time all with SD footage, it isn't for archiving it is for distribution. I am wanting to upscale due to the technological possibilities now seem to suggest it is possible and also because SD is not always accepted and definitely not desired as a format today.

I understand that some end delivery may not accept SD, but by upscaling it to HD you are still not creating real HD master. I myself (for our client) rejected such a files recently as supplier simply lied that they are HD originated. It actually end ed up badly for the supplier, so if you do so better to be clear that your HD is coming from SD source. It's quite easy to tell in most cases, so be aware. Also- upscale in Resolve vs. modern TVs/players may end up to be actually inferior not superior, but I understand why you may want to have HD master.

If you have progressive masters than this is good. In case of interlaced sources upscaling result is in 70% linked to the quality of deinterlacing, but you can skip this step.
In Resolve use super upscale and insert into HD project. Make sure source files are properly recognised as 4x3 (set aspect manually in the clip attributes if needed).
Not sure why you insist on 2K project? Are you going to deliver it for DCP projection? In this case you will have to create DCP master which is bit separate process and you can always use your HD master for it. DCP is never 4x3 natively, so again you have to pillarbox. Mentioned 2048x1556 resolution is not a DCP delivery resolution, so not a solution for distribution.
Whatever you do (except standard SD formats) forget about non-square pixel aspect. For distribution you have to use standard frame sizes and there is no way you can escape pillarboxing in this case. It's not a big deal as modern codecs won't waste bits for this black bars anyway.

Make sure that Image Scaling is set for input to "Scale Entire Image to Fit" so your proportions are kept. You need to see properly inserted 4x3 into HD frame with 240 pixels black bars on sides.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Whatever you do (except standard SD formats) forget about non-square pixel aspect. For distribution you have to use standard frame sizes and there is no way you can escape pillarboxing in this case. It's not a big deal as modern codecs won't waste bits for this black bars anyway.

Thanks for the thorough explanation. To be clear I am not against pillarboxing and that is not the issue I had in the past... the image would simply come in distorted (in the past) as the NLE was looking for square pixels in that resolution and I was giving it 24p non-square pixels (because that is what the camera shot) however, as I said a post up or so, I have not played around with this project in about a year (this posting is old) BUT I am going to do so this week so if I run into any specific problems I will of course reach-out... I am excited that DR17b finally has dropdown as that was another issue I was dealing with and finally yes I plan on making a DCP, I have already one feature under my belt which did quite well in the festivals and I hope this will as well. I am in no way trying to fool anyone that it was shot HD or UHD but I do want it to be a uniformly standard resolution to avoid issues down the line. I fully realize that upresing won't make it look better, but it may allow it to project or screen better

BTW my first movie was AMONG WOLVES if you were curious https://mubi.com/films/among-wolves-2016

If you want to make DCP then I assume you can start with DCP flat (1998x1080) project (even if your HD master maps to it at 1:1 pixels, DCP will just have only more blacks on sides). Then export out of Resolve, although there use to be reported playback compatibility issues with its DCP masters. Not sure if still true.
In such a case you can just re-wrap (so you use Resolve pre-encoded JPEG2000) with https://dcpomatic.com.