A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

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Peter Chamberlain

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A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 19, 2020 5:25 am

Resolve 16.2.2 introduces a new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A which is compatible with how Apple frameworks handle Rec.709 Scene (1-1-1) tagged QuickTime files.

If you have a clip stored with the 1-1-1 profile and are using Resolve Color Management, please tag the input clip in media pool with the new Rec.709-A option.

If you are not using Resolve Color Management, you can set the timeline to Rec. 709-A.

The Resolve viewer should then match the QuickTime Player output. Please make sure “Use Mac Viewer Color Profile” in Preferences is enabled.

This new option can also be used for the output color space and will generate 1-1-1 tagged QuickTime files which should look the same when viewed in QuickTime Player. You can continue to use the 2.4 gamma as well, but it might not be compliant with some 3rd party apps which do not handle the 1-2-1 color profile tag.

Additionally there is a new preference to automatically tag clips Rec.709 Scene clips added to the Media Pool as Rec.709-A. This option will set the input color space of Rec.709 1-1-1 tagged clips as Rec.709-A and will match the look on products such as QuickTime player.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 19, 2020 10:05 am

Problem is that by using 2.4 gamma you are grading to proper standard gamma, but by using Rec.709-A you are grading to 1.96 gamma which is custom value to make OSX preview matching Resolve. It's again way more like a hack than a real solution.
As far as I understand it, Rec.709-A should be never used if you have proper monitoring setup and grading for TV etc. It has no meaning there and will be simply wrong. Maybe there should be a warning about it.
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cameraguysi

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 19, 2020 12:59 pm

Just as a clarification point, is this fix in response to the gamma shift issue experienced by Mac (in particular iMac) users for some time now? Im using a kind-of fix by uploading my content to online channels using Firefox, which strangely bypasses the tags that form part of the file and cause the issue.
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Rohit Gupta

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 19, 2020 1:25 pm

You can always render to 2.4 gamma, and the clip will be viewed consistently on a broadcast monitor, and also Quicktime Player (as it handles the 1-2-1 tag with 2.4 gamma correctly).

The only reason to render to Rec.709-A gamma (which is tagged as 1-1-1) is for compatibility with apps on macOS which don't handle the 1-2-1 tag correctly (some Mac only NLEs don't support it correctly and if you are still using a workflow where you need to round-trip out from Resolve you might need this).

Again, this is an option, and you are not forced to use it. Rec.709 2.4 gamma and also Rec.709 (Scene) are still available.

On the input side, you need this if you want to have the starting point the same as what Quicktime Player X, and other Mac apps show.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Yes, another option, but I can already see it can be a dangerous/misleading one.
I rather preferred Apple to step-in in and solve math behind their OSX color engine, as real problem is there, not in Resolve.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostWed May 20, 2020 6:38 am

Peter Chamberlain wrote:The Resolve viewer should then match the QuickTime Player output. Please make sure “Use Mac Viewer Color Profile” in Preferences is enabled.


Hi,

Thank you for the update and the info. Just to make sure I understand. In order to see the same color and gamma in QTX and the Resolve viewer (on any page) I need to have the following:

1. Set "Use Mac Viewer Color Profile" in general tab of the settings
2. Set Timeline Color Space to "Rec.709-A" (by the way what is the A for)
3. Export

Bonus question I have a project that I worked on with the previous version of Resolve (before 16.2.2) I open the exported h264 master in QTX and compare the Resolve viewer when the Timeline colourspace is set to Rec.709-A and they don't look the same. Difference is notable by eye. So does this not work for already exported material or am I not understanding something here?.

Thank you Peter.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostWed May 20, 2020 7:25 pm

Hi. Thank you for the updates!

We have working with several combinations, several months with 709 2.4... also sRGB, and finally, with version 16.2.1, got the correct matching color from DaVinci, Quicktime, and Wistia! Our final screen is the internet.
Tag 1-1-1 was the answer, and Rec.709 (Scene) the only way for matching, deactivating the use of system profile in DV preferences, and avoiding 10bits viewers.

Nor 1-2-1, 1-4-1 neither 1-13-1 tags working... in Wistia.

I installed 16.2.2 yesterday. Checked Rec.709-A but doesn't match, although it was exported as 1-1-1 tag.
But curiously the color of HEVC H265 8bits differs of a H265 10bits file. Both in 709 and 709-A.
I can understand it since compressed file may change. But it's quite different from older versions results...

In the other hand my MacBook 16" with AMD Radeon Pro 5300M 4 GB and T2 chip jumped from rendering 10u HEVC .mov at 1fps to 47fps in UHD (from a ProRes 422 HQ UHD 25fps) but not matching 709 Scene.
iMac i9 with Vega 48 is not using this implementation.

I also noticed that automatic profile is unfortunately assigned when importing files from Pocket 6K, based in metadata I guess. :roll:
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 4:00 am

Thank you for the updates! Lovin' DaVinci, learning new things everyday, the Quicktime gamma thing is a bit of a nightmare, I've kinda given up, but this looks promising.

Just curious, has Black Magic Design ever thought of just releasing their own player so we can all ditch quicktime? I mean the RAW player works great!.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 8:26 am

This color space was much needed for an FCPX workflow. In addition I have seen that whatever FCPX shows, Youtube/Vimeo shows in different browsers, whereas rec-709 output (or even sRGB) from DaVinci resulted in gamma shifts with YT. So Apple must be tagging something right.

I noticed that though colours now match in davinci & quicktime/fcpx viewers exactly (finally!) when entering the full screen viewer (by hitting P in a single monitor setup) the gamma seems right but the colors are overly saturated. Use mac color profiles is enabled, and the timeline is set to rec709-a. Any ideas if there's a way to fix this (or is it a bug)?
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 8:56 am

RUBEN SALAZAR wrote:Hi. Thank you for the updates!

We have working with several combinations, several months with 709 2.4... also sRGB, and finally, with version 16.2.1, got the correct matching color from DaVinci, Quicktime, and Wistia! Our final screen is the internet.
Tag 1-1-1 was the answer, and Rec.709 (Scene) the only way for matching, deactivating the use of system profile in DV preferences, and avoiding 10bits viewers.

Nor 1-2-1, 1-4-1 neither 1-13-1 tags working... in Wistia.

I installed 16.2.2 yesterday. Checked Rec.709-A but doesn't match, although it was exported as 1-1-1 tag.
But curiously the color of HEVC H265 8bits differs of a H265 10bits file. Both in 709 and 709-A.
I can understand it since compressed file may change. But it's quite different from older versions results...


For me it matches perfectly all the way from QT/FCPX through to youtube, but only when the DaVinci viewer is not full screen. Perhaps you're exporting with "Retain sub-black and super-white data". For me exporting with data levels Auto
CS&Gamma Tag -> Same as project
and the timeline settings are at rec709-a (non color managed)
"Use mac display color profiles for viewers" enabled
and automatically tag rec709 scene as 709-a enabled.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 8:59 am

Here is the issue with screenshots:

Image
Image
Image
Image
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Vit Reiter

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 2:08 pm

Great! Now there is no reason not to return back the Transfer Characteristics parameter for Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 export, right? Can we count on it in future versions? Thank you.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 3:45 pm

Full screen looks not color managed :) Probably a bug.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 7:55 pm

This is working perfectly for me for having my exports match quicktime/vimeo/youtube etc! However I notice that importing screenshots do not look the way they originally did and no amount of colorspace management settings finagling seems to fix this.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 21, 2020 10:16 pm

bradhillproduction wrote:This is working perfectly for me for having my exports match quicktime/vimeo/youtube etc! However I notice that importing screenshots do not look the way they originally did and no amount of colorspace management settings finagling seems to fix this.


Ok so converting the input color space of the screenshot to P3-D65 sRGB Gamma (on my macbook P3 display) either through colour management or a colorspace transform node seems to fix this.

Though in the process I noticed that imported footage into Davinci Resolve takes on a slight green cast in comparison to how it looked in quicktime/final cut. This isn't a big deal as it retains this green cast when exported from Davinci Resolve so you can easily color correct for it. It is odd though but again easily worked around.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostFri May 22, 2020 9:16 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Full screen looks not color managed :) Probably a bug.
Color Management in Full screen mode works correctly on my Mac.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostFri May 22, 2020 4:02 pm

THANK YOU! THANK YOU, Blackmagic for creating Rec. 709-A and listening to the feedback from your users! This fixed that horrible gamma shift when exporting my files on my iMac. Now my files look exactly the same on quicktime as my Resolve viewer! You guys are awesome!
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 6:13 am

kronikstudio wrote:Here is the issue with screenshots:

In some rare situations that i can not really explain for myself, when i take screenshot from Resolve UI or from Fullscreen preview, Resolve intercepts macOS color management system ICC profile and use sRGB instead of display profile for screenshot.
I guess difference may be only in screenshots, but it reality.
But it also could be a bug in resolve viewer. It really should be tested further somehow.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:27 am

Thank you for this, however it is not the case here, since I visually see exactly what the screenshots have captured. The full screen over saturated (but with correct gamma), and the rest of the views/exports proper.

Dmitry Shijan wrote:
kronikstudio wrote:Here is the issue with screenshots:

In some rare situations that i can not really explain for myself, when i take screenshot from Resolve UI or from Fullscreen preview, Resolve intercepts macOS color management system ICC profile and use sRGB instead of display profile for screenshot.
I guess difference may be only in screenshots, but it reality.
But it also could be a bug in resolve viewer. It really should be tested further somehow.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 12:36 pm

Thank you BMD for REC.709-A! It helps a lot!

But one thing drives me crazy. Have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Source video file opened in QT doesn't match to DVR Viewer.

Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.18.41.jpeg
Project Settings
Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.18.41.jpeg (69.94 KiB) Viewed 1169 times


Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.19.02.jpeg
General Settings
Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.19.02.jpeg (69.72 KiB) Viewed 1169 times


Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.27.47.jpg
Source file and DVR Viewer comparison
Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.27.47.jpg (502.49 KiB) Viewed 1169 times


There is obvious difference in contrast. Tire on the right is darker.
On every new project with such settings I experience that trouble. DVR Viewer shows more contrast image than QT Player.

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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 4:39 pm

Amsterford wrote:Thank you BMD for REC.709-A! It helps a lot!

But one thing drives me crazy. Have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Source video file opened in QT doesn't match to DVR Viewer.

Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.18.41.jpeg


Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.19.02.jpeg


Screen Shot 2020-05-23 at 15.27.47.jpg


There is obvious difference in contrast. Tire on the right is darker.
On every new project with such settings I experience that trouble. DVR Viewer shows more contrast image than QT Player.

iMac 2019 i9 Radeon Pro Vega 48 8GB


Maybe it is the change from Rec.709 to Rec.709-A. Gamma is different. So I guess you must check and change the Color Space for the clip after activating Color Managed.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:04 pm

Amsterford wrote:Source video file opened in QT doesn't match to DVR Viewer.


If your goal is for Resolve to match the source files in the viewer when Mac Display Profiles is enabled, then Rec709-A as a timeline setting will only match QTX if the source file is tagged 1-1-1 (you can check this in Get Info in the Finder, there's a section on colour information).

Color Profile.png
Color Profile.png (23.64 KiB) Viewed 1123 times


If QTX is showing the picture lighter with those settings, then I suspect the file has a Gamma 2.2 tag (1-4-1), which QTX shows lighter than 1-1-1 for some reason/bug.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:19 pm

Thanks for reply, Tom.
Yes, my goal is to see the exact same image on any step: import/edit/export.
Just checked it out, color profile is 1-11-1. Sony A7 III video file.

color_profile.jpg
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm

11 means xvYCC, which is wide gamut video based on IEC 61966-2-4 format. Sony like to use this format more than anyone else.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Sat May 23, 2020 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostSat May 23, 2020 8:35 pm

Nikos, the thing is exported file matches DaVinci Resolve Viewer now, it's ok here. I've got a mismatch when I compare original video file opened in QT Player and image in DVR Viewer.

As I was told it's something unique thanks to Sony. :|
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue May 26, 2020 11:50 am

kronikstudio wrote:
RUBEN SALAZAR wrote:Hi. Thank you for the updates!

We have working with several combinations, several months with 709 2.4... also sRGB, and finally, with version 16.2.1, got the correct matching color from DaVinci, Quicktime, and Wistia! Our final screen is the internet.
Tag 1-1-1 was the answer, and Rec.709 (Scene) the only way for matching, deactivating the use of system profile in DV preferences, and avoiding 10bits viewers.

Nor 1-2-1, 1-4-1 neither 1-13-1 tags working... in Wistia.

I installed 16.2.2 yesterday. Checked Rec.709-A but doesn't match, although it was exported as 1-1-1 tag.
But curiously the color of HEVC H265 8bits differs of a H265 10bits file. Both in 709 and 709-A.
I can understand it since compressed file may change. But it's quite different from older versions results...


For me it matches perfectly all the way from QT/FCPX through to youtube, but only when the DaVinci viewer is not full screen. Perhaps you're exporting with "Retain sub-black and super-white data". For me exporting with data levels Auto
CS&Gamma Tag -> Same as project
and the timeline settings are at rec709-a (non color managed)
"Use mac display color profiles for viewers" enabled
and automatically tag rec709 scene as 709-a enabled.


The handicap in our case is Wistia. After several uploads the 1-1-1 tag is the only one that works. Previously we tried 1-13-1, from sRGB. No problems matching DV with QT despite the profile used.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostWed May 27, 2020 12:35 am

I guess I'm both a little dense and inexperienced, but can anyone explain exactly what problem this was designed to fix? Perhaps they could just point to a Link that explains it.

Also what is Tag 1-1-1 as opposed to 1-2-1 , 1-4-1, 1-13-1 etc.?
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostWed May 27, 2020 8:21 am

Not dense Leonardo. It's hardly intuitive but a quick search of this forum and an even quicker google will reveal all. Enjoy.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostThu May 28, 2020 2:18 pm

Leonardo Levy wrote:I guess I'm both a little dense and inexperienced, but can anyone explain exactly what problem this was designed to fix? Perhaps they could just point to a Link that explains it.

Also what is Tag 1-1-1 as opposed to 1-2-1 , 1-4-1, 1-13-1 etc.?


Check the picture attached.

In Quicktime, from MacOS, you can see the code. For example, REC709 gamma Scene is 1-1-1, sRGB gamma sRGB is 1-13-1, REC709 2.4 is 1-2-1, sRGB 2.2 is 1-4-1,...

In VLC you can see detailed Color Primaries, Transfer Function -gamma- and Colour Matrix info.

Not all platforms can read the tag in order to show and match the same color.
Attachments
QuickTime NCLC TAGS.png
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostFri May 29, 2020 3:09 am

Thanks Reuben , I don't understand all of that, but I get enough and can see how to learn the rest.
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostTue Jun 02, 2020 11:53 pm

Trying to wrap my head around this. For me, I’m using ACES and my viewer matches QTX perfectly. Yet opening the same file in VLC and I see slightly different gamma. Same thing happens once I’ve uploaded to YouTube. What’s going on here?
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Re: A new colorspace/gamma option named Rec.709-A

PostWed Jun 03, 2020 12:22 am

AlexWalker47 wrote:Trying to wrap my head around this. For me, I’m using ACES and my viewer matches QTX perfectly. Yet opening the same file in VLC and I see slightly different gamma. Same thing happens once I’ve uploaded to YouTube. What’s going on here?

It is always a difference between color managed (Quicktime, Safari, macOS, iOS) and non color managed (VLC, Firefox, Windows, Androd) video players/browsers. This difference is not directly related to Rec.709-A.
Read Final Explanation of Gamma and Color Shift Problems viewtopic.php?f=21&t=101253
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