color shift in ACES between edit and fusion

i'm getting a slight contrast/gamma/color change whenever i switch between the edit and fusion page. i'm working with R3D files. My project is set to acescc. There doesn't seem to be a color/gamma shift between the pages when i set the project to davinci YRGB.

I can't really find the cause for this, any idea's?

Can't resist... what does the manual say about color transforms to-from Fu page in ACES projects?

page 1001 says

If you’re using RCM or ACES color management, then all images coming into the Fusion page via MediaIn nodes are automatically converted to Linear, and all images leaving the Fusion page via MediaOut nodes are automatically converted back to the currently selected timeline color space. No user intervention is required to make this happen, and this sets you up to apply all necessary compositing and effects operations properly within a linear gamma, giving you the best results.

a few pages later it tells something about the viewer lut and aces:

With RCM or ACES enabled, the Managed option shows you the currently viewed node as it appears within the currently selected timeline color space. You can turn this LUT button off to view the linear image directly, but you can’t change the color space being viewed.

so if i understand correctly, in an aces-timeline, you should be able to see the exact same image in both the fusion and edit page when selecting the managed lut in the viewer (fusion page) however it still shows a different image. (A little brigher, and the whites are blown out) the mediain node color/gamma settings are set to auto. i was experimenting by setting it to ''space'' and acescg which came close, but still not the same. Also if i view the media out on my reference monitor (decklink), it shows a complete crushed image.

i guess it's probably something pretty logical, but i just can't find correct settings.

Can someone test/confirm the same behaviour for me? It would help me out a bit

Manual says it all and yet says nothing useful.

Converting to "linear" is the equvalent of "my image is 72dpi". What gamut does image data have on Fu page is not explicitly stated. One can deduce project working space is simply linearized and thus it is AP1. Is it?

Managed does not manage viewer in ACES projects properly, why it is stated like this in manual, I don't know.

Manual says it all and yet says nothing useful.

Converting to "linear" is the equvalent of "my image is 72dpi". What gamut does image data have on Fu page is not explicitly stated. One can deduce project working space is simply linearized and thus it is AP1. Is it?

Managed does not manage viewer in ACES projects properly, why it is stated like this in manual, I don't know.

Isn't aces in fusion Acescg? Like in nuke?

Manual says it all and yet says nothing useful.

Converting to "linear" is the equvalent of "my image is 72dpi". What gamut does image data have on Fu page is not explicitly stated. One can deduce project working space is simply linearized and thus it is AP1. Is it?

Managed does not manage viewer in ACES projects properly, why it is stated like this in manual, I don't know.

Isn't aces in fusion Acescg? Like in nuke?

Fusion is Linear. ACEScc/ACEScct is ~2.6 gamma. Both are AP1.

Sounds similiar to this: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=112957

Isn't aces in fusion Acescg? Like in nuke?

Probably it is, but unlike Nuke you don't have it explicitly stated anywhere. In Nuke you open comp color settings and there it sits, plain and clear. Nuke rather has a problem with default color system which uses the same half-witted "linear" notation and can cause problems with Alexa WG footage for example.

Fusion is Linear. ACEScc/ACEScct is ~2.6 gamma. Both are AP1.

Sounds similiar to this: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=112957

Linear what? Linear by itself says only half of what one needs to know. ACES2065-1 is also linear, maybe Fu page uses AP0 primaries? ACEScc and cct use logarithmic curves so power curve can not even approximate it because power curve behaves radically different depending on input value being <> 1.0

My suggestion to BMD is to add a more complete description of color pipeline relative to Fu page to manual and also fix the managed viewer lut for aces. And also to very clearly state changes done to color management system in release notes, together with color system versioning so that projects don't break out of thin air because someone decided to change some internal conversion in blend modes or whatnot. If there are implicit conversions done, they should be described in detail, not in generic "conversion is done so it works properly" style.

Yep, ACEScc/ACEScct is not ~2.6 gamma. It is LOG gamma.

https://community.acescentral.com/t/ace ... scct/485/2
https://mixinglight.com/color-tutorial/ ... es-part-4/

Sorry my bad. 2.6 was earlier DaVinci ACES Implementation.

Fusion and ACEScc/ACEScct both use AP1 primaries (aka ACEScg primaries)

Only place where AP0 (ACES2065-1) is used is for the IDT in ACEScc/ACEScct or when explicitly selected via RCM or in Color Transform

That Resolve ACES with 2.6 gamma was a funky thing fortunately it died off.

i'm really trying to follow everything, but what is the solution? what tool/transform should i use to get the exact same image in the fusion page as in the edit page?

Bump

Also interested. I'm sure someone from BMD can demonstrate how this is meant to work... or is ACES+Fusion page combo acknowledged as buggy?

another bump. Is someone able to get an identical image in the fusion page compared to the edit page in aces?

Have you tried with OCIO?

The difference you see is because Fusion is not including an RRT, whereas ACES does.

When using ACES via RCM, it's the same behaviour as Fusion.

The difference you see is because Fusion is not including an RRT, whereas ACES does.

The question that arises from this is why does Fusion not apply the same color pipeline as other pages when in ACES project.

The difference you see is because Fusion is not including an RRT, whereas ACES does.

The question that arises from this is why does Fusion not apply the same color pipeline as other pages when in ACES project.

The Million dollar question

I suspect because Fusion has been a Linear workflow and integration with Resolve came after...

so there are still areas that are bolted on and not seamlessly integrated... this being one of them.

Have you tried with OCIO?

The difference you see is because Fusion is not including an RRT, whereas ACES does.

When using ACES via RCM, it's the same behaviour as Fusion.

you mean the ocio colorspace? i tried some settings, no luck so far. i also tried the ACES transform. The RCM is interesting, i get the same results in both fusion as edit, but it kind of defeats the reason why i want to use ACES.

Eventually i want the aces/acescct colorscience setting to work for both pages.

edit: just saw your last post

so there are still areas that are bolted on and not seamlessly integrated... this being one of them.

I suppose that could be true. but that would be so typical...

I remember a year or 2/3 ago, a new audio function in the compressor popping up (sidechain). after hours of struggling and googling and making sure i did nothing wrong, i saw somewhere on a forum that it just did not function yet. it was there, but it did nothing. the function was in the manual, and there was no single clue to find why it shouldn't work. but it just didn't. No warning message in the manual, no warning next to the concerning checkbox, nothing. Thats just one example. It really makes you want to pull your hair out

With an ACEScc workflow, the trick is to add the OCIO ColorSpace in a separate chain just before the MediaOut (or alternatively just add it to the end of MediaOut), then disable LUT Views.

You also need to download OCIO-Config and point Fusion to the relevant ACES version config.ocio file...

https://github.com/colour-science/OpenC ... s/tag/v1.2


For settings, use:

Source Space: ACES - ACEScg (ACEScc & ACEScg use the same AP1 primaries)
Output Space: Output - Rec. 709 (or whatever your ODT is)

Imho this is all dentistry throught the arse, elegant solution would be that managed view lut would handle ACES project and set it up so that viewers would get a transform from Fu page working space (that should be a separate setting in project color management) to view space.

I just edited my post to make note that you can also add it to the end of MediaOut... this is perhaps the most elegant option with the current limitations

Is someone able to get an identical image in the fusion page compared to the edit page in aces?

Maybe.

The Fusion page won't show any adjustments made in the Color page, which I expect. So when I Bypass Color, the image does look very similar on Edit and Fusion. But it's difficult to be sure without a side-by-side. The Fusion image might be a tad brighter.

Is someone able to get an identical image in the fusion page compared to the edit page in aces?

Maybe.

The Fusion page won't show any adjustments made in the Color page, which I expect. So when I Bypass Color, the image does look very similar on Edit and Fusion. But it's difficult to be sure without a side-by-side. The Fusion image might be a tad brighter.

It's already established the images will look different, because there is no RRT in the Fusion pipeline.

The current working solution is noted a few posts up.

In fusion, if you add the resolve [ofx ACES], you should be able to set the input color space (aces or aces game) and output color space rec709/whatever, and that should include the RRT/ODT (only for viewing purposes.)

In fusion, if you add the resolve [ofx ACES], you should be able to set the input color space (aces or aces game) and output color space rec709/whatever, and that should include the RRT/ODT (only for viewing purposes.)

I remember I tried that some time ago and it didn't look right back then. Just gave it another go again and it worked!

Beats fiddling with OCIO

In fusion, if you add the resolve [ofx ACES], you should be able to set the input color space (aces or aces game) and output color space rec709/whatever, and that should include the RRT/ODT (only for viewing purposes.)

Its not working for me. neither for the other pc's/macs i tried

This is how the image looks in the edit page:

Screenshot (340).jpg (611.2 KiB) Viewed 3812 times

this is in the fusion page by default:

fusiondefault (3).jpg (389.84 KiB) Viewed 3812 times

this is with the acestransform set to acescct (because of my project settings):

fusionACES (2).jpg (447.92 KiB) Viewed 3812 times

I played around with other settings like ACEScc, ACES, etc, but no luck

ACEScc is the wrong setting. Use ACEScg as Fusion is Linear. Also deselect the LUT View.

Don't pipe the ACES Transform output to MediaOut unless you want your footage will look really wacky everywhere else. Fusion does an ACEScg to ACEScc/ACEScct conversion when outputting back to Resolve and is expecting the input of MediaOut to be ACEScg.

See example below.

aces_fusion.jpg (261.05 KiB) Viewed 3806 times

that absolutely aced it.

that absolutely aced it.

EXCELLENT!!!!!

still not ideal when you constantly want to view seperate elements in your node tree. and for compositing that's like all the time. anyway, it's something.