Blackmagic Forum

First, I'm loving r17 so far, even with the bug report I just filed. Thats to be expected.

Please help me understand though why Timecode entry now requires me to go click the timecode or choose a menu option? As an editor with experience in ENG and fast turn around this makes zero sense. I get a script with timecodes for sound and can bang through a couple of minutes of material in a few seconds before.

Now every entry requires going and clicking over and over and over to enter timecodes. Before it was just type my TC (numpad) and enter, in point, outpoint, overwrite. I can not stress how big of a step backwards this is if you cut the way I and many other editors do. Please give us a means to activate timecode entry on the active window by typing! Perhaps a menu option? Something... please.

Thanks! r17 is great, and I appreciate the work that has gone into it and how the team tries to make it more efficient for everyone, and I understand WHY they thought this would help, but it most decidedly does not.

Austin Reeves
Cinematographer

As a workout, for those of you in the same boat as me, I suggest mapping the numpad '=' key for instance to the shortcut for GO TO TC. Resolve does differentiate the keypad and standard keys, so this at least gives you a logical keyboard shortcut to enter the TC.

Press = to enter time code, or +/- to offset it.

austinreeves wrote:Now every entry requires going and clicking over and over and over to enter timecodes. Before it was just type my TC (numpad) and enter, in point, outpoint, overwrite. I can not stress how big of a step backwards this is if you cut the way I and many other editors do. Please give us a means to activate timecode entry on the active window by typing! Perhaps a menu option? Something... please.

+1 for a menu option or User preference to use number keys for timecode entry without having to press a shortcut first. As a finishing editor I'd much rather have this over extra shortcut keys.

Rohit Gupta wrote:Press = to enter time code

Oh, that's no good. = without modifier should be the Zoom In function, with - being the Zoom out function.

Zooming is something done quite often. Using a modifier requires the right hand coming off the mouse. That's just not workable.

Jim Simon wrote:

Rohit Gupta wrote:Press = to enter time code

Oh, that's no good. = without modifier should be the Zoom In function, with - being the Zoom out function.

Zooming is something done quite often. Using a modifier requires the right hand coming off the mouse. That's just not workable.

All these shortcuts are configurable

I haven't been able to make it work, though.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=125298

GRRRRRRRR !!!!

Pease keep, like the old way, to type the t/c directly from the keypad with the use of + and/or - !!!

All non linear system work directly with numeric keypad !

Less hits, better editing and time is money !!!

Jim Simon wrote:I haven't been able to make it work, though.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=125298

The numberpad + and - keys are separate from the main keyboard + and - keys, you can have the numberpad for timecode and the normal +/- for zoom still, no modifier required.

FWIW I've been able to assign the timecode entry command to an F key -- many thanks to help from fellow lister Tom Early!

Inside the keyboard customization window, it's Application>Playback>Goto>Timecode.

I know, it's an extra keystroke, so not really solving the problem, but I remapped it to my F16 key, which is at least over my numpad and not an = key which I'm used to having do other things.

Yes, a workaround, but if it needs be, at least you can put it somewhere safe for the moment.

Best
Chris

I'm hoping this is a bug?
If not. Resolve will never be an editorial NLE.
This is enough for many editors to jump ship. Including myself. The keypad MUST be active without modifiers.
01010000 should take the playbar to hour one one minute zero seconds and zero frames.
+12 should be 12 frame forward
-12 should be 12 frames backward
+100 should be forward one second.

This is IMPERATIVE for editorial.

Now, one can't even type in numerical trimming on clips? So this is a MAJOR regression.

Editorially (Edit Page), 17 is a disappointment.

brediknight wrote:+12 should be 12 frame forward
-12 should be 12 frames backward
+100 should be forward one second.

This is IMPERATIVE for editorial.

Now, one can't even type in numerical trimming on clips? So this is a MAJOR regression.

+/- work as they always did in 16, if anyone can't trim numerically then it's a bug but it's fine on my system.

The only actual change since 16 (unless default shortcuts changed which I don't use anyway) is that you have to press a key before typing in numbers to go to a specific timecode value. That's the only thing that should be discussed here.

Denis Pilon wrote:GRRRRRRRR !!!!

Pease keep, like the old way, to type the t/c directly from the keypad with the use of + and/or - !!!

All non linear system work directly with numeric keypad !

Less hits, better editing and time is money !!!

+1000

Agreed. No pro would use this if those keys didn't work as they always have.

Tom Early wrote:+/- work as they always did in 16, if anyone can't trim numerically then it's a bug but it's fine on my system.

The only actual change since 16 (unless default shortcuts changed which I don't use anyway) is that you have to press a key before typing in numbers to go to a specific timecode value. That's the only thing that should be discussed here.

Not being able to punch in timecode whiteout a modifier, regardless of actual TC time or + or - is relevant to editorial navigation by numbers/numerical keypad.

for me, neither work. So I hope its a bug.

Bring it back, please!

Tom Early wrote:The numberpad + and - keys are separate from the main keyboard + and - keys, you can have the numberpad for timecode and the normal +/- for zoom still, no modifier required.

I did in 16.

Not working in 17. I'm guessing because of the new 'requirement' to hit a key before timecode entry.

REALLY not like that. Why add the extra work? Why deviate from decades long SOP used by every major NLE?

I was convinced that my keyboard was broken, because I cannot fathom why this would be an intentional change. Truly baffling, and please restore to how it was before. Having to press an extra button for TC manipulation is a major nuisance.

eikonoklastes wrote:Having to press an extra button for TC manipulation is a major nuisance.

Yup.

100% in agreement. This must be fixed or my department won't be able to use Resolve 17 for online conforms or QC.

Denis Pilon wrote:All non linear system work directly with numeric keypad !

Less hits, better editing and time is money !!!

+1000!

eikonoklastes wrote:Truly baffling, and please restore to how it was before. Having to press an extra button for TC manipulation is a major nuisance.

+1000

jayers wrote:100% in agreement. This must be fixed or my department won't be able to use Resolve 17 for online conforms or QC.

It's very important for me, too

+ and - to modify timecode does NOT work for me in 17 either. Please fix in next release.

Ondřej,

If you're not using the default Davinci Resolve keyboard configuration, you will need to manually set + and - to the actions "Playback > Timecode > Increment/Decrement timecode" from the keyboard customisation dialog.

On the same topic, while the default timecode entry hotkey is '=' (mapped to the Playback > Go To > Timecode action), the keys for all three timecode actions can be customized in the keyboard customisation dialog.

Regards
Shrinivas

Customizing that shortcut isn't what's wanted and needed here, Shrivnas.

Removing it is what we're calling for.

Typing numbers on the keypad should be all that's required here. No additional keypresses or clicks.

This has been SOP in every NLE since forever. Why on earth would you guys mess this up?

Jim Simon wrote:Customizing that shortcut isn't what's wanted and needed here, Shrivnas.

Removing it is what we're calling for.

Typing numbers on the keypad should be all that's required here. No additional keypresses or clicks.

This has been SOP in every NLE since forever. Why on earth would you guys mess this up?

+1000

Wow. Really? This isn't a bug? Its on purpose?!@#!@

Very disappointed in v17 Editorially.
With this type of change and response, I don't have faith in BMD's understanding of Editorial. Especially with resources going into the Cut page.

brediknight wrote:With this type of change and response, I don't have faith in BMD's understanding of Editorial. Especially with resources going into the Cut page.

I love the speed editor though. I hope it's still available in two weeks when I get my money.

I'm sorry, but IS THIS A JOKE? Fix it ASAP!!!!
Pure frustration! Editing speed is severely compromised with this "design".

BMD should at least add a checkbox in preferences for this "feature" to turn off.

BMD, fix this or you will NEVER get seasoned editors to move to Resolve for Editorial. I know many, that will drop the "Resolve as editorial" experiment just because of this.

This is miscalculated, misguided, and shows a lack understanding of how professional editors work.

The Next beta should revert back to the industry standard. If it doesn't, then BMD isn't listening.

Glad to see so many others as frustrated as I am.

Beta 5 dropped and WE STILL CAN"T TYPE IN TIMECODE to navigate our footage.

SO YOUR NOT LISTENING? WHY BOTHER WITH THESE FORUMS THEN? HOW ABOUT A TICKETING SYSTEM????


Professional Editors LIVE in timecode. Dailies, Reference cuts, Transcripts, VERBAL etc. etc.

HAS BMD NEVER SAT IN A SUPERVISED EDIT SESSION?

FIX THIS OR YOU WILL LOSE PROFESSIONAL EDITORS!!!!!

APPARENTLY BMD IS RACING TO THE BOTTOM INSTEAD OF RISING FOR PROFESSIONALS.

17 IS SO DISAPPOINTING!

Changing this is like changing Spacebar for Play/Pause.

It's such an industry standard behavior that if you don't do it the same, then you're just doing it wrong.

I have to agree with the sentiment shared here. There are many things I like about Resolve 17 but this one issue is killing me...

Jim Simon wrote:Typing numbers on the keypad should be all that's required here. No additional keypresses or clicks.

This has been SOP in every NLE since forever. Why on earth would you guys mess this up?

I just fired up Final Cut Pro X and it has increment (+ or =) and decrement (-) timecode but it appears you have to mouse click to type an absolute timecode. (Though it does appear to have a "Paste Timecode" option, which is cool.) So not all NLEs just let you type numbers on the keypad.

As you say, a toggle (that defaults to off) makes sense for those whose job it is to type numbers and jump around a timeline to exact locations.

For the rest of us, hitting keypad = (absolute), - (relative decrease), or + (relative increase) is mnemonic, intentional, and is an easy reach.

A potential advantage of = could be for more convenient correction of mistakes. It doesn't currently work this way, but if + or - or = would clear any partially-entered timecode before entry, you could just hit = a second time if you make a mistake and then type the correct timecode, rather than hitting Escape or hitting Enter to jump to an incorrect location in order to start over. (Currently = and - and + are ignored when entering timecode so there's no advantage there.)

wfolta wrote:I just fired up Final Cut Pro X

Macs don't count. (Silly rabbit. )

Think different

Jim Simon wrote:

wfolta wrote:I just fired up Final Cut Pro X

Macs Adobe don't count. (Silly rabbit. )

Fixed the typo for you.

wfolta wrote:Final Cut Pro X and it has increment (+ or =) and decrement (-) timecode

FCPX is iMovie Pro.

FCPX said FU to the Facilities that invested in FCP, SHAKE, COLOR, FCPSever, XSERVE etc. etc.
Apple pissed off the facilities and studios and they went back to Avid or Premiere.
FCPX WILL NEVER BE IN THE PROFESSIONAL FACILITY or STUDIO AGAIN!

BMD you are following FCPX? That explains the resources to the Cut page, dev time for 13 inch Macbooks and Minis. Do you really think pro's care about running Resolve on a 13inch Macbook or Mac mini right now?

BMD you are racing to the bottom, not up.

BMD Please respond to this. We need and official statement regarding this and the reasoning. Just "changing it" is an FU to your existing editors, only to appease your FCPX low end market.


Oh and BTW, your free beginner /Cut page market doesn't buy your SDI products or high end panels, let alone quantities of them. Pros do.

While people are venting, I'll add that the title and initial premise of this thread -- that you needed to use the mouse to enter timecode -- is completely false and misleading and it doesn't take but a second to confirm it.

Having to type an extra keystroke is a legitimate complaint for folks who need to do that operation as a core part of their job. Not trying to minimize that. But the absolute hysteria that the initial title and post generated -- and continue to inspire even when comments are otherwise reasonable -- has sucked a lot of credibility out of the thread

brediknight wrote:FCPX is iMovie Pro.

Um, no.

brediknight wrote:FCPX said FU to the Facilities that invested in FCP, SHAKE, COLOR, FCPSever, XSERVE etc. etc.
Apple pissed off the facilities and studios and they went back to Avid or Premiere.
FCPX WILL NEVER BE IN THE PROFESSIONAL FACILITY or STUDIO AGAIN!

True, Apple totally screwed up the transition to FCP X. Shake was evidently a pig in a poke -- a messy code base that couldn't be improved or maintained. It was a big mistake for Apple to have even bought the product. You only have to look at Logic Pro to see a similar professional product that has stayed at the top of its game and been continuously improved. Apple made a previous error, but they're not trying to sabotage things.

I can understand if studios feel burned. Though FCP X does currently have the production features it was missing at launch and is in fact used by a lot of professionals and in professional facilities.

Personally, I feel about Premiere as you do about FCP. I used Premiere 1.0 and watched how they abandoned the Mac for two or three years while they worked on the PC version, and pretty much treated Mac users as fourth- or fifth-class forever. I switched to FCP the moment 1.0 came out and never regretted it.

BMD Please respond to this. We need and official statement regarding this and the reasoning. Just "changing it" is an FU to your existing editors, only to appease your FCPX low end market.

They obviously changed it to free up numbers for shortcuts for things like multi-cam edits and to be consistent with the + and - you already have to type to do incremental timecode entry. It's one additional keystroke and the key is directly adjacent to the number keypad.

Not saying it's a good move for many studio users. Just saying it has obvious theoretical merit. It's not some crazy imagined change for the heck of it.

wfolta wrote:They obviously changed it to free up numbers for shortcuts for things like multi-cam edits and to be consistent with the + and - you already have to type to do incremental timecode entry.

It doesn't add any consistency, because it was already 100% consistent before. The old way, everything operated the way it does in your head. If you want to go to a timecode, you just type it in. If you want to increment it, you type + then type it in, similar for negative. NOW, if you want to go to a timecode, there's an interruption in the process, because now you have to press a button before typing timecode. First and foremost, the numbers on the keypad are numbers, not shortcut keys, and so in a professional NLE, they are timecode entry, it's as simple as that. Don't make us have to activate them as actual numbers before we get to type them in!

And freeing up keys for extra shortcuts is NO excuse. If you are going to do something as disruptive as that, MAKE IT A USER PREFERENCE, or else have some other trigger like Printer Light Hotkeys (and have the user preference be that this defaults to on/off; I'd prefer it as a simple user preference though rather than menu item toggle). You have this in MacOS where function keys can either be for system functions, or deferred to be application specific.

For those who do not have a number pad then sure, I get the need for having a timecode entry shortcut because at any rate, using the number row keys on the main keyboard for timecode isn't going to be a fast process anyway and yes it would be good to enable them for shortcuts, but for people who have a spare set of numbers, please don't hinder us in this way! And seriously, let's not overestimate the number of people doing multicam edits.

Tom Early wrote:

wfolta wrote:

@Tom - Exactly. There is a reason why we have keyboard presets for FinalCut, Avid and Premiere. This is a global philosophical change by a Software Engineer and NOT a professional editor.

@wfolta - some good points and you verified my fear about chasing FCPX. Your right, this thread isn't correctly representative. Without derailing it further into FCPX (my fault). I'll say a few things.
1. FPX was based on iMovie. The bins , the linking and the container method. It literally was based on iMovie. Engineers making editing software.

2. It isn't just about bad or outdated code. Other vendors deal with this all the time. It's about understanding an industry and keeping their software a solution to industries, not just individuals. Avid, Autodesk, Foundry alike, all had to migrate code to intel, to 64bit. to OS9 to OSX etc. etc. now m1. We could always upgrade our project forward. With Avid, you could open up a ten year old project and have your timeline in place. One would "Promote" a title forward if you wanted to or leave it alone. Apple doesn't not share this philosophy. They update at will and you can't go back. You can't even roll back OS installs or iOs install if it reeks havoc on your software or hardware. They really, shouldn't be in the creative space at all. They should be a platform for developers or spin it off like Filemaker Pro.

Apple bought Shake, and studios had thousands of composites based on Shake. including scripts. Once apple shut it down, studios couldn't restore their projects. In many cases, the composites had to be redone when HD mastering. For us personally, we had a project with over 600 Composites in Shake with scripts. We had to redo them later when changes were made to the project years later. Its more than just apple killing products moving forward, it caused a TON of pain in archived projects. Can you imagine a facility with all Media Assets in FCP Server? Yeah. Not cool. They completely boned the Studios and the studios havn't forgotten.

Anyway. I'm always for giving user preferences, but this one is a biggie. At least put it on FCPX Keyboard Presets.

Personally, I curse BMD while editing in v17 every-time I have to hit the = key to jump to a line from a transcript. It slows me down. (as if all the clicking, selecting and deselecting while editing didn't already).

Editorial has always been lacking in Resolve with promises it will get better. I was hoping v17 would address many of the Editorial shortcoming. This however, is a fundamental step backwards and shows a lack of understanding of the Professional and legacy workflows.

Thus, the comparison to Apple and FCPX - who tried to reinvent editing from an engineers point of view. Its worrisome and troublesome that BMD is showing the same signs of chasing the low-end and not the high end.

What really threw me off is that I was using a custom keyboard layout from Resolve 16 that carried over to Resolve 17 and hence the +/- keys and = where not assigned correctly (and so entering timecode didn't work at all). With the default Resolve keyboard, the behavior is improved - but this is a huge cluster. Shouldn't have happened, IMO.

I hear you, you were burned by Apple. On a much smaller scale (a two-man shop) I was burned by Adobe with Premiere, and I wouldn't use Premiere again if it were the last editor in the world. I used After Effects because that team had a much different attitude -- or maybe because I had no alternatives -- but once I tasted Nuke and now have found Resolve/Fusion, I would never again use After Effects.

In some ways I think FCP X's magnetic timeline is like nodes. People who are familiar with layer/effect based composition -- such as AE -- think nodes are crazy-complicated and confusing. I was just part of a thread in these forums where a new guy was duplicating inputs instead of running multiple wires from one input, because that "duplicate the layer and comp it back in" attitude is so muscle-memoried. I look at fixed video tracks that way, and the magnetic timeline is a bold move towards a way of working that's way way faster and more efficient (for the editor).

This wasn't a decision that Apple made because some software guy figured they could iMovie it. My fuzzy memory is that the FCP team was actually working on the idea before iMovie and that the iMovie folks saw the benefits of simplification for consumers and adopted it and shipped it first. (Just as the iPad was actually designed first, but its concepts shipped in the iPhone first.) And my fuzzy memory says that the FCP team had experienced editors and consulted with Hollywood-level editors. (My memory is very fuzzy, and probably colored by my opinions, so I could be totally wrong on this.)

They totally blew it, though, in deciding that they needed to rip the bandaid off in one fell swoop and push everyone from FCP 7 to FCP X. As you point out, Apple has done that a lot and it helps them, but can burn institutional users badly.

First, it was too different for many people to accept. Second it didn't have the capabilities to integrate into workflows. For example, exporting multi-track audio for my Protools guy to work on.) They assumed that 3rd parties would immediately fill the gap and it didn't happen.

So there were months -- probably more than a year, maybe two -- where FCPX broke established pipelines. That was stupid and arrogant on Apple's part and they deserve full condemnation for that.

But the different way of editing truly is powerful and very fast. Dedicated video tracks are a holdover from A/B editor days, which is essentially your iMovie Pro argument with just the names changed: a poor choice dictated by taste rather than the actual task at hand. (I bought a Media100 back in the day: two dedicated video tracks A and B and a dedicated Title track. Yep, what was designed that way because of physical tape/film and computer limitations, not because it made sense in the world of motorcars.)

Dedicated audio tracks are also not a good idea except in two cases: 1) a one-man operation where you do everything and don't want round-tripping for audio, or 2) a very sophisticated tool like Resolve that supports high-caliber network Collaboration (which didn't fully exist back then). Most other pipelines involve round-tripping to Protools or Logic, so Apple's Roles -- which weren't there for quite some time -- may be the right answer. A DAW guy needs dedicated tracks because they route and do effects for tracks and tracks are what tie clips logically together across time, an editor doesn't need this, and when you look at how audio jumps from track to track as you move video, that's an indication that the idea is broken.

In terms of Shake, that was a disaster as well. But as far as I understand -- and I could be wrong -- the code base was literally a pile of junk and basically unmaintainable. Apple had been sold a bill of goods and after some initial "make it look Apple" changes it was impossible to move forward. Again, contrast that with Logic which evidently had a good code base, which they've been able to build on for years. And that doesn't excuse Apple's overconfidence in what they had and over-selling thereof.

I hadn't thought of the situation like you experienced where assets in the bank became useless with the death of Shake. Yikes. Yeah, I could see never using Apple again after that.

Not going to argue any more Tom. Your point is valid: it changes things, breaks muscle memory, and makes you much less efficient since even little extras add up to considerable losses over the course of a day.

I'm disagreeing with your argument, which says it's not logical or consistent. It is logical: plus makes larger, minus makes smaller, and equals sets the same. Logical. That doesn't mean it works for you, and you're right to push back against it. But calling it illogical, and thoughtless, and attributing possible other ridiculous reasoning to why they did it just muddies the waters and dilutes your actual (strong) argument.

In fact, there's precedent for your position: Color can use the keypad to do printer points, but you have to toggle it into that mode with CMD-Opt-tilde. And that's essentially what you're asking for: have a mode where it's just a timecode entry keypad, and non-editorial user might find the mode where the keys do other things more useful. Bravo.

The keypad allows for very logical mappings of stuff, like printer points, since keys are directly over each other. So in Color keypad 7, 8, and 9 raise cyan, magenta, and yellow, respectively, while the keys directly below (4, 5, 6) lower them. Enter resets (I think). 3D software I've used take advantage of the grid nature of the keypad to do Left View (1), Top View (7) and Right View (9), with intermediate keys rotating the view.

The keypad is quite useful for physical attributes like that, instead of the keyboard's jumble of diagonal keys, mnemonic keys, etc. So BMD is quite right in trying to maximize its use. But you have a strong argument that some people have no need for that and even just a single extra keystroke for them is disastrous. Sort of like if an editor had to hit enter each time before using JKL to navigate the timeline.

Please fix this asap... I'm very frustrated. As others have said before, timecode should just be typed in, without having to press any other keys before.

moved to

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