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Panel first look

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:40 pm
by waltervolpatto
i saw a presentation fo the advance panel done by Darren Mostyn.

First of all, thanks, the panel needed help.

Then I lost some of the survival hair...

1) can i put the printer light where they where? I use both the num pad AND the printer light all teh time, and now they are crammed in one control.

2) they should also be mappable on the LEFT side: normally you have one hand on the transport and the other on the printer lights and already now i have to either use the same (right) hand or cross over. The new positioning make my left hand useless.

3) I applaud teh killing of the extra memory buttons... BUT, by the same reason, you have the right hand on the transport and the left hand on memories at the moment, eliminate the one on teh left force eithe to use ONE HAND ONLY or worst, cross hands.....

It seems that was thought out by engineers more than operators (neatinness over functionality.)

In general, if the right hand is busy on controls and right side of the panel, the left hand should be able to do something complementary: apply memories/color/printer lights.......

Now I can chop a hand off and I will have the same speed... It’ like put the second half of a grand piano over the first half.....

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:07 am
by Peter Chamberlain
I worked with colorists for the layout, no engineers were harmed in the production

So basically you would like the ability to have timecode entry on the RH panel and Printer lights somewhere easily for your left hand to access?

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:23 pm
by waltervolpatto
For what I understand the top left/ right off the panel are mappeablev with some function, then yes, map the printerlight on the top left. Then somehow. Have the 1/2-1/4 step as well.

The memories seem less doable: if I understood correctly, you removed the left section and left the ones on the right section: that will force a left hand cross the right hand kind of position.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:36 am
by waltervolpatto
Panel Discussion.

Hi Peter.

I will post here instead of the facebook group so we keep one conversation going instead of two/three.

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I got some screenshot from Darren after he posted about the new layout of the panel and that raised concerns on the speed of which the actual task of coloring is executed.

Let’s start with an analogy.
Imagine that you’re playing an organ: you have three main sets of things:

The keyboards, the extra knobs (stops) and the pedals.
The main task of the organist is to play music. This is achieved using at the same time the right/left hands (hi/low keys) and the pedals (let’s call that primaries extra functions.
Then when a change in chord is required, either with the right hand or the left hand a stop is pulled.

At the same time the pedals have some main use and some accessory use; the main one are placed in the center and the less common are placed in the sides.

If you look at the configuration, there is a symmetry of use where the most used element of making a organ music are both accessible and equally divided in left/right hand use: you don't want to have all the keyboards in the right hand and all the stops in the left hand, it will make for a pretty unusable musician instrument.

If you look at a drumset, you have the most used drums pieces in the middle, split between left/right and foot, then the less uncommon/used outside/around it.

So, that comes down to your panel. Like I said, thanks for the overhaul, it was needed!

Which is the main use for the panel? To do a fast and efficient color grading. Now, each colorist has his/her preferred workflow, but we can agree that we don't use the panel for editing…

Let’s start with the most common configuration: T bar on the left, transport on the right. The right hand will be handling the transport for the most part, either with the play/stop/next/pre section or the numpad to either jump to a shot or jump to a node: you want to minimize the number of times you use the mouse if possible.
When you’re not transporting, you’re coloring, either central balls or knobs that are in the center/right of the consolle.

The left hand has the primary task of coloring, balls and center left knobs/buttons of the consolle.

Now, I don't know if you have a statistic of the button pressed by a colorist in a 8 hour shift, if the software can catch that telemetry it could be a great inside of a colorist workflow/mindset.

My preference is dictated by how clients that work with me like to approach the color grading: usually we have a world look, might be a scene look, and the majority of the color is to use printerlights (PL for short) in the logarithmic space of the camera and occasionally do some windowing/secondaries. In doing that I keep switching between the color i’m doing, a reference in the timeline, a reference in a still (or multiple stills), doing some PL/offset/LGG (mostly L-G), jump to another node, do some log correction, moving to another shot, repeat the process, switch between A/C sort mode (all the time), show the group I’m on only vs the whole timeline, occasionally trachink some windows.



I practically never use the RCM, because we manage the color workflow ourselves in collaboration with VFX/Editorial/Dailies and finishing. Some decisions are also dictated by Studios and distributors: like having to deliver a show without LUT in logarithmic for archival and so on. It’s a shame, but it is what it is.

The other action that happens, especially when you start, is to save in the memory different angles of the camera and jump to the next shot, apply the correction, jump, apply, jump apply.
So, in the central portion of the panel you want to tools you use the most, on the left and right the second tier, on the far left/right the one you seldom use, and if a tool you recall will force you in the exact next action to use the mouse, probably that tool should not be in the panel in the first place.

Let’s make a case for this last point first: first group of buttons top left of the new configuration, I see [project] [media] [fairlight] [fusion] and so on: if a function you just recalled it, immediately forces you to to use the mouse, in mapping it hard coded on the panel, you just “wasted” unnecessary panel real estate.

If you press [media] for example, the next thing you will do is using the keyboard and mouse, why you go in the media page otherwise, and you have already both keyboard shortcut and mouse presses to achieve that, same for fairlight / fusion / color / delivery / project settings: on the last item, for example, if your project are set, you don't need the menu, if they are not set you need mouse to change them, and chances are that once you setup the settings you will never change it again for the rest of the week.

Same for the new tracking section: having hard coded tracking means that it is the most important tool we will need all the time (as opposite to have the soft mapping like the previous version): that imply not only that is one of the functions we do pretty much all the time, but also that will never require teh mouse/keyboard, because the moment you need to use the mouse, it start to be pointless to have it hardcoded.
When i track, the chances to NOT using the mouse to refine/delete are pretty slim considering that the order of operations are: halt the color on a shot, realize that i need a shape (usually client request), either having a node already there and select it or make a new node (append or otherwise, depending if you build the node as you go or you have a premade structure), then draw the shape (mouse operation) and while i’m already with the hand on the mouse, [ctrl+T] and track, then refine it. It is really unlikely that after the track finishes, i don't have to use the mouse to refine it.

The days when we used a simple circle and track-it are long gone….

In the bottom there is the section about adding nodes: I (personal preference) don't use it because I have a fixed node structure, so i understand why it is there, but there is a button there that i use ALL THE TIMES: the [disable] node (to show a before/after or to see the grade on off with the client).
Now i don't see it at all in the panel, I assume it changed name perhaps [BYPASS TRIMS], but if that button is gone is a big deal. Same if that button is buried under a shift press or it is on the right panel, remember the right panel (and conversely the right hand) is busy most of the time to transport to another shot/frame/node.

The reference, I switch constantly between gallery, timeline and offline to show the client either what we did in a previous shot, what the master reference i saved was and what the offline look like. Now i have to [shift] to access that, while the reference style and the invert reference I use exactly 0.000… times in the course of a whole month, very usually I set it full frame and forget kind of deal, I always flash between the reference and the current shot, very seldom i do a split between them.

Thanks for the version s and group functionality. The [find in the media pool] seems another button that requires a mouse action after.

Other buttons that look suspicious are [switch timelines], [dual monitor] and similar, if i set them at the beginning of the color session, there is a very good chance that I will never touch it again for the day (or week).

Right panel (I don't have a image of the center panel I will see if i can get one)

Transport. This is what your right hand will work most of the time. Few buttons moved around (more noticeably the loop button) but nothing much different.

Keyframes were streamlined thanks.

Num pad. That is constantly in use and now has a hidden functionality that is a main color correction tool: the printerlight.

Think about this sequence of event:
Go to shot 230
Add 3 point of red
Go to shot 225
Add 1 point of red
Type [230]- timeline-ref on to compare with the shot 230
[ref-off]
Go to node 6 and add 1 point of blu (because there is a window there)
Compare with [still]-[ref on].
Move to next shot
Offset the node 1
Compare to 230 on timeline

And so on.

I do cycles like this for 8 consecutive hours and not only now the PL are hidden, but also the timeline / stills / offline choices are hidden under a [shift] and you cannot transport and do printerlights with two hands because they are both in the right panel.

Move, compare, adjust printer light, move, adjust, compare, move adjust compare… that is what a colorist does especially in the first balance pass for weeks at end.
As an added bonus… If you ever work with DoP like Dickens, printerlight is the only tool you’re allowed to use… (old, OLD school…).

Lets, now talk about memories.
Let’s make a case for it. And it is better if i give you a concrete field example.
For all movies that are shot in 2.39 format, the studio requires a 1.78 pan/scan verison.

I will not probably use the AI tool you introduced in V17, because clients want to have control over it, and, it’s more work and therefore, income…

So, how today is that achieved? Usually if you shot anamorphic, you don't really have anything to “scan” top and bottom (you're at the edge of the sensor), so you zoom the central part until you cover the top and bottom lines and you pan either left or right to center the subject better on the frame.

A way to do it elegantly is to make 7 memories of the pan: full left - mid left - low left - center - low right - mid right - full right and you go stepping in the subsequent shots with your transport hand (right) and apply the closer memory you need with your left hand, so you pre-pan teh shots in a position that allow for a quick review and trimming.

That works well today (transport on the right and memories on the left), but in the new configuration, the memories are solely on the right panel and you are forced to either only use the right hand OR cross hands to use both.
You can try today with the existing panel: try to use transport and memories on the right vs. use right hand for transport and left for applying memories.,

Same is true if I'm coloring and I have, let’s say, 5 POV: total, mid closeup left, closeup left, mid closeup right, closeup right. This is a very common situation for a two person dialogue.

There are plenty of cases where reorder clip doesn't work (multicam or restoration) and therefore the most effective way is to save the 5 memories and jump to the next shot, apply the relative one, jump, apply, jump apply… again is a left hand memory, right hand transport.

Like a musician, you want to always do something with your right hand and something complementary with your left hand.

Is it more clear what I'm thinking?

Thanks for listening.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:50 pm
by waltervolpatto
Also, where is now the "copy node / paste node"? I use it literally hundreds times per day, finally in 16 e had it, now i don't see anymore.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:09 pm
by waltervolpatto
On the panel in V16, if i have [loop on] there is really no indication: can the [loop] button be more illuminated if [loop on] is active in V17?

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 am
by waltervolpatto
My wife found this when i was explain her the panel issues I’m seeing...


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Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:17 pm
by waltervolpatto
If not there, please add the [ripple node change to current group] to the panel, that will save me lots of mouse clicks throughout the day...

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:24 am
by Peter Chamberlain
thanks for posting here rather than FB.

So, let's assume for a moment all your comments are valid and work with the knowledge that while the layout initially does seem to suite you, it has been through multiple iterations with working colorists and.. fundamentally the keycaps are set as they are.

Over all the feedback is its much faster to use but let's see what other options we can add in soft menus to get what you need.

I've already discussed soft menus for printer lights, so maybe we can do some mems too.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am
by waltervolpatto
Peter, I understand the position “it si what it is” because of the (most likely) 10000s caps already printed.

However, that does not stop the idea of switching position of those caps on the board (it’s a firmware change), for example move the memories a-h form the right bank to the left bank in the same general area and just swap the buttons.

If you can answer, where is the [copy/paste node] and [disable node] now? I don't seems to find it anymore in the images I have.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:31 am
by waltervolpatto
Peter Chamberlain wrote:thanks for posting here rather than FB.

So, let's assume for a moment all your comments are valid and work with the knowledge that while the layout initially does seem to suite you, it has been through multiple iterations with working colorists and.. fundamentally the keycaps are set as they are.

Over all the feedback is its much faster to use but let's see what other options we can add in soft menus to get what you need.

I've already discussed soft menus for printer lights, so maybe we can do some mems too.


Thought: even if the key caps are what they are, can they be switched of board position?

Like the memory on the left and the page selection on the right ?

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:34 am
by Peter Chamberlain
Thats not trivial and certainly not in the current plan.

We have added PL to the center panel soft keys to address the workflow where users dont want to use the PL on the num pad. So different to before but right hand can switch between mems and timecode/clip entry, left hand for PL.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:21 am
by waltervolpatto
Peter Chamberlain wrote:Thats not trivial and certainly not in the current plan.

We have added PL to the center panel soft keys to address the workflow where users dont want to use the PL on the num pad. So different to before but right hand can switch between mems and timecode/clip entry, left hand for PL.


Got it. Thanks.

Re: Panel first look

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:52 pm
by waltervolpatto
I was looking again to see if two important things are there:

color ripple node changes to current group (most important)
color ripple node changes to current selection

and nope. no cigar. that would have reduced the mouse use by a healthy chunk....

looking at the panel i wonder if the "macro" have any use.