Brightness / Whitepoint for Fusion titles in Wide Gamut

Hi there,
I noticed when using the new Davinci Wide Gamut Color Space that fusion titles added to the timeline which are supposed to be white are displayed as grey although the color picker shows peak white. I'm not sure if this is a bug or on purpose. Is there a way to get the fusion titles to display as white while using davinci wide gamut?

Best for now I figured was to bypass color management on the fusion title, but that still leaves it at grey, but then I can push the grey to white using the gain control on the color page. But that's not a great or clean solution for titles with transparency or colors etc.

Any input on this is appreciated.

DR Studio 17.1B build 10 for Mac OS M1.

Your expectation of “peak white” doesn’t work the way you think it does when dynamic range compression is done for display rendering. Works the same in ACES too where value 1.0 doesn’t produce white.

You need an inverse of output transform added to graphics so that when they go through output again it produces a no-op. I haven’t tried this in practice with DWG though but principle should be the same.

Hendrik, thanks! Is was just trying some more stuff as I was expecting something along those lines you explained. Turns out you can just up the color values on the fusion titles beyond 1.0. So putting the RGB sliders to 100.0 each I get peak white in wide gamut as it seems. Have not yet tested if this introduces other problems, but it looks okay to me so far.

This is one way to do it but could skew your mids if you do it on graphics due to nonlinear working space.

But yes, in essence this is what an inverse transform would do too. Lets say you want 1.0 to produce max white for rec709 output when working in ACEScc space. If you take value 1.0 and apply inverse rec709 ODT curve to it, you get something like 55.0 out of it (can’t remember what the max actually was). When this goes through forward transform again, it produces 1.0, max in rec709, as you would want.

Okay yeah that makes sense. It's really a bit abstract when working in these bigger color spaces. I noticed a lot of instances where things won't look correct when using ACES or DWG. LUTs of course won't work as intended which is to be expected. But also a lot of the OFX Resolve FX will look wrong out of the box when using DWG for example. I'm curious if in the future things like that will be automatically scaled to bigger color spaces in the background.

There are two a bit different concepts at play here, dynamic range and gamut. When people say “big color space” it is a mashup of the two usually. But this gray white problem is only related to dynamic range, gamut “wideness” has little to do with it. You get same gray whites with rec709 gamut when operating in other ranges. What gamut changes is the saturation of primaries and white point (lets call it tint for simplicity, because white actually means “neutral” here, not white as “absolute value”).

I actually have to make a correction in what I wrote before, the concept is the same but numbers don’t really apply to log space logic because ACEScc is also working in normalized 0.0-1.0 range. My example is better for linear ACES, for example ACEScg compositing environment. But the logic is same, your graphics or generators etc don’t have values high enough to produce max luminance after being mapped to output domain.

In sorry guys.. Since I'm new on color management and color control inside fusion, what's the process to show up a right graphic color (also white peak in text) inside a dwg? Is there a right node to add before the media out node? If yes, what's name? What's parameters should I set? Many thanks!!

Check out this thread regarding muted colors of Fusion templates when using Davinci Wide Gamut: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=130735
Hope this helps!

Thanks Heiko Thies! Yesterday i played following that instructions, but ok, now white graphic is white, but all other color scale are totally bad... I hope that blackmagic design will fix this... I tryed to select "bypass color management" on fusion clip menu using right click mouse but nothing happen..

I'm not sure if this works, but you could try and create a compound clip from the fusion comp in your timeline and bypass color management on that compound clip.

I'm not sure if this works, but you could try and create a compound clip from the fusion comp in your timeline and bypass color management on that compound clip.

Ok! Next week I will try this workaround.... thanks!

I'm not sure if this works, but you could try and create a compound clip from the fusion comp in your timeline and bypass color management on that compound clip.

Just have the same problem.
Your workaround unfortunately don't work correctly. I tested this and it works only, if I disable the clip below. This is very odd!

I think a found solution. Posted in this thread: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=73386&p=726658#p726658

I think a found solution. Posted in this thread: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=73386&p=726658#p726658

Thanks! Tomorrow will test it! But how do you do a graphic fusion comp if this colors are brightness? Should you change timeline color management every single time when you have to create a new fusion comp?

sorry, I can not follow. What is exactly your question?

You have just to grade every fusion comp. Nothing more.

sorry, I can not follow. What is exactly your question?

You have just to grade every fusion comp. Nothing more.

i mean, if you using the davinci wide gamut, when you start to edit a text+ or a new fusion comp, when you apply a color pallete, it will be always brightness...


EDIT: i test it, but it doesn't work. Ok white is white, but ALL color gamma is out of color...

Only real solution to this problem where graphics are comped with other elements is to apply full inverse output transform to graphics, so that it produces a no-op in the end. I haven’t looked into it too deeply but it looks like currently there is no way to reverse all the tonemappings happening in DWG projects (and similar). And it will be a lot of head scratching for BMD to make it actually logically work, it is a nontrivial compound problem to solve, especially because there is no control over where exactly the graphics are integrated to other color managed elements in processing graph.

Only real solution to this problem where graphics are comped with other elements is to apply full inverse output transform to graphics, so that it produces a no-op in the end. I haven’t looked into it too deeply but it looks like currently there is no way to reverse all the tonemappings happening in DWG projects (and similar). And it will be a lot of head scratching for BMD to make it actually logically work, it is a nontrivial compound problem to solve, especially because there is no control over where exactly the graphics are integrated to other color managed elements in processing graph.

Yes exactly. There are just missing options to do that.
But with this you can fix it as a workaround.

This fix doesn’t work when graphics elements need to be comped with other footage and can’t be set on another layer.