Blackmagic Forum

I don't know if it's a bug or if there is something to configure, but the white of the titles is... grey with Davinci YRGB Color Managed - Davinci Wide Gamut and the other colors are "muted".

EDIT:
For those who are coming on this thread, I got a response that work for me here : viewtopic.php?f=36&t=130735#p709513

You must reconsider what “white” actually means in high dynamic range data context.

Hendrik Proosa wrote:You must reconsider what “white” actually means in high dynamic range data context.

I was thinking about that... I find color grading SDR content on the color page so much better with this.

The thing is, when I edit in photoshop, ... AdobeRGB... or ProPhoto RGB, or sRBG.
Whites are white, and some of the very saturated colors are naturally less saturated on the monitor.

Why is it not the same here? (it's a question from a total noob on the subject). The output is set to rec 709.

I'm asking because of this (at 4:52)


(there are other problems with this mode with the new Resolve FX "Transform" anyway, when the Motion blur is set to something else than 0)

The value you consider white in your graphics does not produce maximum possible value in your output (rec709) because it is not bright enough. In natural scenes this is because there are possible luminance values way-way above ideal diffuse reflector surface that “white” is usually understood as, that should still be separable in output and not just clamp (within reasonable limitations). In synthetic graphics reason is usually either in wrong data interpretation or preparation. So to circle back, you must force your graphics to brightness high enough to produce maximum value in output.

I had the same problem recently on a small project with white text in davinci wide gamut. If you have value fields for the RGB values available, you can enter numbers bigger then 1.0 to increase the brightness. It does not seem to help with color picker fields where you can only pick full white through the system color picker settings.
Another way that seems to work is after selecting davici wide gamut, go back into the dropdown and select custom instead. That opens up all the settings. So you can set color space to davinci wide gamut and the brightness levels to SDR 100 (assuming you still want to grade Rec.709 SDR but use the wide gamut). Also this opens up the setting for the graphics white level. I'm not sure if this has any influence for SDR grading or just for HDR output, but try to play with that values and see if it changes anything.

Heiko Thies wrote:Also this opens up the setting for the graphics white level. I'm not sure if this has any influence for SDR grading or just for HDR output, but try to play with that values and see if it changes anything.

I think this may be the key. The default may be that titles are made at 100% SDR brightness, but that's not very bright at all if you are working in an HDR workspace. And since you ask for it to show you brightness as it will appear once mapped down to SDR (i.e. your delivery space), that measly SDR 100% gets mapped down to less-than-full brightness to leave space (in SDR) for truly bright stuff.

So you need to tell the Text, etc, that they need to make HDR-brightness stuff. (And "HDR" simply means brighter than SDRs 100 nits, and it can range from 500 nits to 10,000 nits depending on what flavor of HDR you're using and other factors.) It might make sense for the defaults to automatically change if you change your different spaces, but that could trigger other side-effects, not to mention that you have multiple choices for how you fit your HDR material down into SDR for delivery and for several of them Resolve can't really reverse-engineer your thinking to set intelligent defaults for graphics you create.

Resolve can handle more complex combinations of input, output, working, and displayed spaces than any other software I'm familiar with, but that also unfortunately means we need to know more to use it. (I struggled mightily trying to figure out my workflow from Mac to Youtube that would be more neutral when viewed on PCs, TVs, and phones and not just look great on a Mac. With more power comes more responsibility.)

Heiko Thies wrote:I had the same problem recently on a small project with white text in davinci wide gamut. If you have value fields for the RGB values available, you can enter numbers bigger then 1.0 to increase the brightness. It does not seem to help with color picker fields where you can only pick full white through the system color picker settings.
Another way that seems to work is after selecting davici wide gamut, go back into the dropdown and select custom instead. That opens up all the settings. So you can set color space to davinci wide gamut and the brightness levels to SDR 100 (assuming you still want to grade Rec.709 SDR but use the wide gamut). Also this opens up the setting for the graphics white level. I'm not sure if this has any influence for SDR grading or just for HDR output, but try to play with that values and see if it changes anything.

Thanks for that!! I just tried it and ... white is... white on the titles I really appreciate the tips.

But isn't a problem? I mean my regular rec.709 footage look the same and colors are no different when I go from Davinci YRGB and Davinci YRGB Color Managed with Davinci Wide gamut.

I still don't get why the other elements are not treated the same way, especially when Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 is chosen for the output color space.

I'm out of my league here, so maybe my "logic" doesn't work in this case ... (or does it?)

Anyway, what your response helped a lot. I just tried to grade something, it works the same way as before, but with the titles (and other generators/colors) that look like how they should look like

The configuration in the screenshot is what I use now

Happy I could help!

I'm not sure if this works as intended right now as this is the very first time BMD implemented this new color space into Resolve. In my opinion Resolve should map values like that according to the chosen output color space on it's own when you select any of the presets in the preset section. So regardless if you select rec.709 or rec.2020 for example, when you use the color picker and select white, this should always map to peak white in any output color space. Especially, since you don't have settings in the normal text tools for example to manually change RGB values through numeric fields. Maybe it's an oversight and will be fixed with one of the next versions or there is a clear reason / benefit of not doing that which I'm not seeing right now.

Heiko Thies wrote:I'm In my opinion Resolve should map values like that according to the chosen output color space on it's own when you select any of the presets in the preset section. So regardless if you select rec.709 or rec.2020 for example, when you use the color picker and select white, this should always map to peak white in any output color space.

This would have a lot of issues. For example mapping peak white in rec709 to peak white in both rec709 and AWGLogC output would give massively different results, that are not logically reversible with standard transforms on input side. At best selected color could be scaled in relation to working space.

Maybe we are both talking about the same thing and I just chose my words poorly to discribe it For me it's just hard to wrap my head around the fact that in one field I can select pure white on the color picker, that's the maximum peak white I can select but it comes out as grey and I have no direct way to change that. Like I said, there might be a good reason BMD decided to not scale values like that to keep the result consistent regardless of current color space / output settings. Of course most likeley you don't want your texts / graphics to be 1000 nits in a rec.2020 project and they gave us the setting for graphics brightness so at least there is a way to control it. It's just a bit confusing that the color picker values do not reflect what you get as a result. But I guess the upside to it is you can have one setting to controll ALL texts at once regarding their brightness instead of changing them all by hand to another color value if need be.

Don't know if this is useful but my own experiences with "Graphics white level" in HDR projects is as follows..

BBC Research and Development and other sources suggest 203 nits Diffuse White for a 1000 nits display so I set Timeline working Luminance to this value and 203 nits for Graphics white level.

This works fine for:
Basic text
Left Lower Third
Middle Lower Third
Right Lower Third
Scroll

but has no effect on:
Fusion titles
Generators > Grey Scale
Generators > Solid Color (white)
Generators > Fusion Generators > Paper
Open FX > Filters > Grid

Furthermore, I found that Graphics white level 203 nits is only consistent provided Timeline working Luminance is 1000 nits. If I lower this to 800 for my LG OLED lt lowers the brightness of basic titles from 203 nits to 150 nits.

I find it difficult without a proper manual.

Claire Watson wrote:Don't know if this is useful ...

Thanks for your input.

For me, the tips from "Heiko Thies" is working well (I posted a screenshot of the configuration he gave me) I didn't tried on the Fusion page yet with this configuration. But on the edit and color page, it works, without my initial problems with muted colors.

I think Claires input was meant for HDR projects. There it makes perfect sense to go beyond 100 nits for the titles, but still stay below the peak brightness of HDR, in many cases 1000 nits. Most HDR TVs have built in safety features to recognize and dim down titles above a certain brightness anyways as they tend to be still on screen. So having titles around 200 nits makes perfect sense for HDR, but with SDR and the default 100 nits peak brightness it makes senses to have them mapped to that for white.

Maxwellx wrote:

Heiko Thies wrote:I had the same problem recently on a small project with white text in davinci wide gamut. If you have value fields for the RGB values available, you can enter numbers bigger then 1.0 to increase the brightness. It does not seem to help with color picker fields where you can only pick full white through the system color picker settings.
Another way that seems to work is after selecting davici wide gamut, go back into the dropdown and select custom instead. That opens up all the settings. So you can set color space to davinci wide gamut and the brightness levels to SDR 100 (assuming you still want to grade Rec.709 SDR but use the wide gamut). Also this opens up the setting for the graphics white level. I'm not sure if this has any influence for SDR grading or just for HDR output, but try to play with that values and see if it changes anything.

Thanks for that!! I just tried it and ... white is... white on the titles I really appreciate the tips.

But isn't a problem? I mean my regular rec.709 footage look the same and colors are no different when I go from Davinci YRGB and Davinci YRGB Color Managed with Davinci Wide gamut.

I still don't get why the other elements are not treated the same way, especially when Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 is chosen for the output color space.

I'm out of my league here, so maybe my "logic" doesn't work in this case ... (or does it?)

Anyway, what your response helped a lot. I just tried to grade something, it works the same way as before, but with the titles (and other generators/colors) that look like how they should look like

The configuration in the screenshot is what I use now

MY FRIEND, YOU SAVE MY A LOT TIME!!!!!!!!!!! I'M GOING CRAZY SINCE THIS MORNING!!!!!!!! MANY MANY MANY THANKS!!!!


EDIT: Anyway, we know that this is an issue and i hope that to Black Magic will solve it, because you can see a little bit difference (i can see it on Eva1 footage) from davinci WGamut SDR100 over SDR4000 (standard setup using Wide Gamut).

Ok I'm totally new in this world of DaVinci editing and color... please don't blame me. But I just wanna share my thoughts and experience with DavinciWG so far.

After all the inputs from you, putting "Gamut Mapping" under Resolve FX Color on a title and set "max output luminance" to 4000 or higher (standard luminance DWG HDR4000) works also fine for me.

So I set Resolve color management preset to "DaVinci Wide Gamut" not to custom. Because setting custom and SDR100 is very limiting my footage.

Your Feedback would be appreciated.

I think a found another solution with keeping the "HDR Setting", because it gives me more freedom in grading. Posted the solution here: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=73386&p=726658#p726658