Blackmagic Forum

Hey folks,

Hope you don't mind some questions from a beginner in this realm. Not editing, but creating a great editing work environment at home.

My wife and I are both enthusiast video editors - e.g. not making our dough from editing. So I'm hoping noone is going to recommend I invest in a $20k server rig.

A lot of the advice here seems to be pro studio / enterprise level, so I'm not sure what applies for a local hobbyist setup. Or, the home studios have two or three people working simultaneously on huge files which is overkill for us too.

Our current setup is so:

We shoot 29.97fps 4k footage on a Fuji X-T3. 4:2:0 200mbs. Most videos are simple sequential edits, e.g. not too many video channels (usually 1 video channel and either extra channels for text or we use Fusion for that).

I work on a powerful desktop, banger CPU, GPU, okay drives, 1Gbe ethernet port.

She works on a new (pre-M1) but not super high-specced MBP.

We create and edit projects separately. No need for simultaneous editing.

She is not so technical so stays away from some of the colour grading and other tricks, which means exporting projects and sharing them back and forth between our computers.

We are currently on a ******* network which means that's usually via USB sticks although that's a pain and no good way of keeping track which version is most recent.

Note, I am moving soon and will be setting up internal CAT6 in the house, or at least we'll be able to wire all of our computing elements directly.

The way I see it, I have three major problems, and 3 guesses as to the solutions:

Currently: No good solutions for file organisation

The dream: single file repository that we can work directly from, or at least pull files from easily.

Due to our current workflow, I tend to push files directly from SD cards to the computer doing the editing. I then later go take the SD card and copy all files over to an archive on my internal HDD. This is all manual, I haven't found a good import / archiving software (I love lightroom for photos but my version can't handle h265). So, I am sure I end up missing files.

Ideally, I'd like something like a NAS where the files are pushed first, and then the individual computers work directly from that (the dream, but expensive), or at least just pull the working files from the NAS to work on locally. That way, I am fairly certain I will capture all the files even copying them manually.

Currently: Project collaboration is slow and painful, due to the export - import project workflow - and no centralised file storage.

The dream: A single project database we are both connected to. Not to work on simultaneously, but so one of us could finish editing, tell the other, and they just open it up on their machine and get to work.

I think setting up an PostgreSQL project database would solve this issue, right? I have found conflicting information on where I can host this.

I have shared online hosting with plenty of spare bandwidth although I've read that's not a great idea.

I could potentially host it on a VM on the NAS, right? Although I heard some people strongly argue against that on this forum too. I'd rather not set up a third server entirely.

An alternative would just be pushing project exports to a shared folder like Dropbox, or on the NAS... but... that still seems a little archaic to me.

Currently: Very little redundancy

The dream: never worry about losing a file.

I think a NAS would kick this off. I could have a second copy locally on my computer. And maybe an external HDD bay in the future.

Offsite backups are not so cheap here in Australia, data caps means that things like Backblaze are a pain. But I would immediately feel a little better with a few copies locally.

So!


Is a NAS the way to go? I have looked at the QNAP TS-453BT3-8G which seems to suit our needs - TB3 for her MBP and 10Gbe connection once I sort out my network woes. I have read you can edit directly from files on that as well. I would probably kick off with 4x 8TB drives to give us a fair bit of runway.

Could that host a PostgreSQL database locally? Am I missing something obvious?

At this point, even an external HDD enclosure we pull files from would be a stepup, with dropbox or similar for project exports. I might even do that in the meantime, while we find our new place and get the network set up.

I also have a bunch of good quality PC parts sitting around which could form the basis of a FreeNAS type machine, although a plug and play solution is attractive too. PSU, CPU, MOBO, RAM.

Cost of a 453BT4 with 4x8TB is about $2,800 AUD, so not cheap for a hobby either. But I have some other uses for it as well, so not a total write off.

Thanks for any advice. Editing itself, no trouble. Suddenly working with another person and wanting a smooth and user-friendly experience, not so simple!!

Are you using Studio or the free version? If the latter, I'd wait for what BM is offering for collaboration in the upcoming 17 final.

Is your desktop MacOS too? Some space left for drives? You can have your shared database in one of the machines and use a NAS for storage and/or backup.

Oh, and I'd disadvise editing from the cards for the love of your original recordings. Always make a cloned copy first.

For managing your sources, have a look at Kyno.

Thanks for the tips Uli.

Uli Plank wrote:Are you using Studio or the free version? If the latter, I'd wait for what BM is offering for collaboration in the upcoming 17 final.

Free version. I don't need multi-user collaboration, just shared projects that we can access NON-simultaneously without having to export and import project files. I think that works on Free?

But, I am waiting for the 17 final release as it sounds like a nice feature to have for free!

Uli Plank wrote:Is your desktop MacOS too? Some space left for drives?

Windows 10 - in an ITX box. It is very highly specced but no room for extra gear.

I could use some extra hardware I have to build another secondary PC however (really just need a case and the HDDs - mobo, RAM, CPU, PSU, GPU - have relatively powerful equipment just sitting around from my previous build!).

Uli Plank wrote:You can have your shared database in one of the machines and use a NAS for storage and/or backup.

Can I ask the justification for not hosting the database on the NAS too? I read this advice elsewhere but it didn't really explain why that's not ideal. QNAP have documentation for setting up a Resolve database too.

I could do it on my PC for sure, but it's not on 24/7 typically, which sounds like an appealing use case for a NAS in that sense.

Uli Plank wrote:Oh, and I'd disadvise editing from the cards for the love of your original recordings. Always make a cloned copy first.

Bad wording on my part sorry - I transfer from the SD to our local storage, whoever's computer is editing that project. But sometimes that's directly to my wife's SSD and I don't have time to do it for my PC's 'archive HDD' for a few days, so I am sure I am losing things.

Rather than pushing it from SD to multiple hard drives, I'd love to have that NAS set up as a single repository which each computer then pulls from.

Uli Plank wrote:For managing your sources, have a look at Kyno.

Kyno looks spot on, actually I had seen it before but forgotten the name! Thank you.

That said, now I am thinking about how I would make that work after pushing all my files to a NAS in the first place!! I guess, I could do everything on the NAS and my PC would just treat them as local files anyway.

If you're not concerned about working at the same time, the simplest option is to have your wife use the Desktop. Doing this job on a Laptop is like trying to build a log cabin out of Popsicle sticks. It'll work, but damn what a horrible experience.

You need a desktop.

That done, my advice is to always copy the full media card (with checksum) to a backup location as the first step. And then copy (also with checksum) the full card to an internal Media drive as a second step.

Simple, elegant, practical.

Jim Simon wrote:If you're not concerned about working at the same time, the simplest option is to have your wife use the Desktop. Doing this job on a Laptop is like trying to build a log cabin out of Popsicle sticks. It'll work, but damn what a horrible experience.

You need a desktop.

Can't say I disagree, but I can't get her onto that line of thinking. This will make you shudder; it's a 13" screen too.

Jim Simon wrote:That done, my advice is to always copy the full media card (with checksum) to a backup location as the first step. And then copy (also with checksum) the full card to an internal Media drive as a second step.

Thanks Jim, you are correct. I have been skipping it because the current workflow of getting it from my storage to hers is a total pain. So, aiming to fix that.

In the past, when I was mostly doing photography, I had Lightroom to keep track of what I had copied, and a backup drive that didn't need to be enormous to have some redundancy.

Now, with only my internal drive set up, I am very wary to clear my cards after copying files over. So I still have shoots all the way back to August sitting on my SD, and just clear the oldest as I need more space.

In the meantime, I've dug up an external HDD enclosure and have a single NAS drive on the way which will sit in there temporarily as a centralised repository. So that works.

Having your media on a NAS with fast wiring shouldn't be a problem. Having the database there seems to cause problems for some with the response times. Do you share projects or just the media?
If the latter, just have your own disk database on each machine or wait and see what BM will have for collaboration.

From what I see in 17 Studio, it'll be more flexible, like being able to export and import even single timelines. You can read about it in the "New Features Guide" in the beginning of the manual that comes with 17 (no installation required).

Inexpensive "hobbyist" NAS's are too slow (ie 1gbe network connection = ~100MB/s MAX) and the better ones with 6/8 bays, caching, and 10gbe connections are very expensive.

I would say keep it simple, or maybe try a peer-to-peer 10gbe network between your PC's - although I have no personal experience of this. Any one tried this?

Didn't he write he might set up parts for a dedicated PC? If that one is decent and supports 10 GB, it should serve as a NAS.

Uli Plank wrote:Having your media on a NAS with fast wiring shouldn't be a problem. Having the database there seems to cause problems for some with the response times.

@Uli Plank - this makes no sense. Either you have an underpowered NAS or not enough RAM in the NAS. The database should be quite quick compared to accessing large files.

@OpenHand - If you don't want a "server", then you really do want an all-in-one NAS product. I personally use Synology - but I think QNAP is quite good also (maybe better, but also maybe more $$$). Brand won't matter as much as specs - both brands make a range of offerings from home user all the way to enterprise and everything in between.

• 10Gbe is wonderful if you are able to run the wires required.
• If you are going to run other stuff on your NAS besides files, then more RAM is good. Most NASes are upgradeable. I upgrade my Synology DS918+ from 4gb to 16gb and run lots of extra apps on it. If you are running a database on it, more ram will be better.
• NASes at different price levels have different processors or CPUs just like your computer. Also some NASes have GPUs in them too for transcoding video (mostly aimed at people running their own media servers at home like Plex). Get a NAS with a decent CPU if you want to host the Resolve DB on there.

Last but not least, RAID is NOT a backup! I've seen more than a few YouTube videos of creators cursing the NAS vendor for "losing their files". RAID protects against local hard drive failures. When you run the hard drives hard (lots of accessing, big files, lots of writes) they will die at some point. RAID gives the opportunity to replace drives as they die and keep all your data with no downtime by storing data redundantly. But it is NOT a backup. It won't let you recover accidentally deleted files. It won't let you recover from a ransomware attack. It won't recover your files if your house is robbed and burglars steal the entire NAS. Etc.

Most NASes like Synology support backup apps that can sync/copy your files somewhere else. Synology has their own backup offering as well as syncing to a bunch of popular cloud offerings.


TL;DR; You are shopping for a decent mid-range NAS with a RAM upgrade and 10Gbe support.

and add.... a raided NAS will not protect against a water pipe in the suite above breaking and flooding the edit machine and NAS that were rendering overnight at near 100% load.. sad to find them in the morning under 2 feet of water

and yes there were offsite backups in that case

Hey folks,

Thanks for the very helpful answers so far.

I finally found a good explanation for running the postgreSQl on a separate device too - that the network will get swamped shifting around heavy media files, so really it's important that the database is on a separate network (possibly on the same device though). I'm not sure if that's critical if I'm not saturating my connections.

I am still going bananas trying to land on a solution here.

I've found the ASUSTOR products which seem to pack a lot of hardware (and importantly those 10Gbe connections) in fairly cheap packages, particularly compared to Synology and QNAP here in Australia.

For example, the AS4004T has a 10Gbe connection and lands at $500 AUD here, but it looks like it's only got 2GB of RAM which probably won't cut it.

But, for the same price as the 4 Bay QNAP unit I was looking at, I could jump on an AS6508T which is an 8 bay unit, two 10Gbe ports, comparable CPU, expansion drives, upgradeable RAM.

Right now it looks like this:

1. Give up and just stick with a cheap NAS to pull files from (but not work directly from). Run the Database on my PC, or maybe get a little Macmini or something to run as a server if the NAS can't handle it.

This makes my life easier and cheaper.

For one, I don't need to upgrade anything to 10Gbe.

It just makes the workflow a little slower overall, not the end of the world for me at this point.

2. Build my own server / NAS type system with my spare parts.

I have an ITX mobo, good recent Xeon CPU, GTX 1070, SFX Power supply and RAM sitting around. So I'd just need a case, a 10Gbe PCI card and a fair bit of time to mess around to get it set up.

This would probably be the most powerful solution if I got it right. But it's not super power-efficient and I am more comfortable working on Windows, which I guess wouldn't be as stable as a dedicated Linux server or something.

It should also be fairly cheap in hardware as I'm fairly set already, but expensive in time no doubt!!

Alternatively I could try and sell those parts (I have been trying) and put the money towards a pre-built solution.

3. Buy a more expensive QNAP or ASUSTOR solution

As we have been discussing. But it'll cost and I'll need to upgrade certain elements of my network for 10Gbe... which I guess I should look at anyway.

Just to give you an idea, this is from my humble Synology DS418j.
It's connected by 1 GB Ethernet and has one GB RAM only.

Uli Plank wrote:Just to give you an idea, this is from my humble Synology DS418j.

Thanks Uli. From my view, that's more than respectable for transferring the working files back and forth and working with locally.

Once I figure out the best place to host that database, I think a simple, cheaper system will meet my needs. And I can always upgrade if we outgrow it, or end up making some money from these harebrained ideas!

I keep my Resolve databases in Dropbox - it works fine as single-user. From your description, what I'd probably try for is to have a local database on each computer, then a third one in Dropbox. You'd have to be careful that you're not both working on the shared project at once, but if that's doable I think that's the easiest solution.

Until you figure out the NAS and network, a good external SSD should be pretty easy to work with. I use a M.2 NVMe Gen3 SSD in a USB 3.1 Gen 2 enclosure with a fan to ensure it doesn't get thermally throttled - it'll happily max out USB's 10GB/s on read, and even gets 5GB/s on write (the SSD should be able to handle 10gb/s write no problem, so that's on my list of things to figure out still...). Copy files directly from the SD card to the SSD, then when it's the next persons turn to work on the project, they just take the SSD and plug it into their computer. Hopefully someone backs it up occasionally too.

Hey Jack,

Based on your dream vision of setup and considering you want to keep all that budget-friendly, I'd suggest you'd go with a cloud setup design for this type of storage - easy file sharing, single repository, and file safety. The product that best matches the description is Renderro. It's a cloud platform with a built-in workstation and shared cloud drives.

Single file repository that we can work directly from, or at least pull files from easily.

Renderro gives you cloud space drives, which work exactly like a standard NAS, but shared with everyone using the same account. You and your wife can both upload or download the files from the Renderro drive, and work on it on a cloud workstation, just like you imagine.

The dream: A single project database we are both connected to. Not to work on simultaneously, but so one of us could finish editing, tell the other, and they just open it up on their machine and get to work.

That is precisely how it works - you can both have your workstation and work on the same files, always available at hand. You can connect to the workstation with any type of laptop - there are no bottom requirements here. You can also use any software you normally use on your Windows computer.

The dream: never worry about losing a file.

Ale the files are safely stored in the cloud, always available to download and as long as you don't delete them - they will be there.

Hope this helps you in a way! Happy to answer any questions as I'm working closely with the team.