Interlaced broken in DR17

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Florian Kohlert

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Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Mar 11, 2021 1:36 pm

Hi!

Since updating to DR17 (17.1 behaves the same way) on our Win10 machines, we have lots of problems with interlaced timeline, it seems as if the new interlaced processing workflow is broken.

I have an AAF from Avid, 25 minutes long, starting timecode is 10:00:00:00.
I have set up two projects in Resolve, one project interlace processing enabled, one interlace processing not enabled.

When importing the AAF with the option "enable interlace processing", my timeline does not match the Avid, all clips in V2 are 10h off (twice the starting timecode, 50FPS/fields vs. 25fps??)
Instead of 10:23:10:22 the clip on V2 is now on record timecode 20:23:10:22.
If I import the same AAF in my other project without "Enable interlaced processing" the timeline is correct, no clips moved 10h.

If I render out my timeline to AAF, I set my render settings to render with 10 Frames handles.
The rendered files in both projects only have 5 Frames handles. (10 fields). I guess because Resolve knows the source files are interlaced (Field Dominance shows Upper Field"). The AAF back in the Avid fails to link.

If I render out files that where shot progressive, I really get 10 frames handles.

If I set in and out in the editing timeline, resolve shows 356 Frames instead of 178. An interlaced timeline has in the FPS column 50, an interlaced source clip states 25. During grading or editing, Resolve does always seem to show deinterlaced material, never the original interlaced material on the video out. Scene cut detection seems to be broken with interlaced material. If I export a new AAF (generate new) with the enable interlaced setting and import it into the Avid, it has 50fps, and all the clips it is referencing have 50fps, no chance to relink.

So it really seems that Resolve is itself very confused with 50fields or 50 Frames. I still did not manage to deliver anything working using the method of an AAF with individual clips.

I think we need to get back to 16, at the moment any interlaced workflow seems to be fundamentally broken.
Thanks,
Flo
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Tyler Granlund

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostMon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 pm

I agree with this- Ive posted about it and been in an endless email chain with support. It is causing me serious headaches.

I think we need to get back to 16, at the moment any interlaced workflow seems to be fundamentally broken.


I do have a couple workarounds that help, create the project and timelines with interlacing on, and do one of the following:

Create a new interlaced timeline and use the "import aaf to current timeline feature, this gets the media in with track 2 shifted a bit, but the manual reconform of the entire track is easy.

OR

Import the AAF from AVID, do not check the interlaced field processing box, and it will import correctly, create a new interlaced timeline, and copy everything from the AAF import into the interlaced timeline youve created.

Both have drawbacks on freeze frames and speed ramps, which worked perfectly in V16, if the next update doesnt fix it Im going to be force to revert all my systems and server (which I really dont want to do)
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Edwin Street

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue Jun 22, 2021 2:40 pm

I can't help you other than to say I totally agree with you that the interlacing workflow is broken in 17.

It worked very well in 16. I hope they change it back to that workflow in 17.3
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chrisbrearley

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostMon Aug 09, 2021 2:08 pm

We've just noticed a big change since the 17.2.2 update. We have had a project set up for years which has worked fine and now all of a sudden we are seeing this weird artifacting. I noticed in the chaneglog for 17.2.2 they have been playing with field settings for clips or something but whatever they have done has broken it.

Screenshot 2021-08-09 150725.png
Screenshot 2021-08-09 150725.png (344.31 KiB) Viewed 2892 times


*EDIT* Rolled back to 17.1 and our issue has gone away. It appears as though it came about in 17.2
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Shrinivas Ramani

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 2:52 am

Hi Chris,

What are we looking at in this screenshot?

Regards
Shrinivas
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chrisbrearley

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Aug 12, 2021 12:20 pm

Those white lines above and below the black edges. They should not be there and are not there when using 17.1 or previous.
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Shrinivas Ramani

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostFri Aug 13, 2021 4:23 am

Hi Chris

Can you provide a downloadable link to a DRP (and/or media) for us to take a look at? Please also add some info on your platform and hardware and let us know if you're using the studio or free version of Resolve

Thanks
Shrinivas
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chrisbrearley

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostFri Aug 20, 2021 10:37 am

Hi Shrinivas

A link was sent to Matthew in support. We can see the same problem on both Mac and PC. 17.1 and below is ok so whatever is causing this to happen was introduced in 17.2

Not fixed in 17.3.
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Tyler Granlund

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue Aug 31, 2021 8:02 pm

17.3 fixed this issue
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chrisbrearley

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Sep 02, 2021 3:14 am

No it didn't
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue Sep 07, 2021 7:42 am

I'm going to add my 2c to this too.

We record in interlaced formats exclusively. Our end-product for broadcast is interlaced. Same frame/field rate and resolution for recording and broadcast. Since upgrading to 17, the output in the viewer as well as the final flattened MXF look terrible, like a really amateurish deinterlace filter was passed over it, yet we're not deinterlacing at all. Even turning on field processing in the project doesn't help.

The only thing that works is to duplicate an old project from 16, clear everything off the timeline, and then edit from there.

It's very inconvenient and I'm very tempted to roll back to 16 in our edit suites because of this. We are licensed with Resolve Studio too.
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Mar 03, 2022 12:44 am

I've just fiddled around again with this in 17.4.4. It still appears to be broken to me. Has anyone else had any success?

I've tried all the appropriate tickboxes in various different combinations, and I never get a clean looking interlaced export. Even the preview looks bad.

We're still using our workaround (see previous post), but it shouldn't be necessary.
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Matt Quinn

Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Mar 03, 2022 1:12 pm

I assume you're working in 1080i HD... 25 frames/50 fields James?

Something I found a little odd is how 'easy' it is to inadvertently set up an 'apparently interlaced' project with a 25 frame per second timeline instead of a 50 field per second timeline... You'd think they'd be the same thing but they seem not to be. - Other weirdness includes the default capture/playback setting itself to HD 1080PsF24 - which as far as I'm concerned is an oddball non-standard thing ... And SDI defaulting to 'dual link' - when it's not! - In fact output/monitoring is via is one of BMD's own Decklink SDI 4K cards stubbornly set to 1080i/50 for output.

This occurs no matter how we try to create a 'preset' with the correct settings... and it's too easy not to notice these things in the fog of a morning as you start something up. Doubly so since it's very rare for us to 'capture' anything these days... having gone 'solid state' a decade back... and when we do - we don't use Resolve for that purpose.

It was with that in mind we set up a project with just bars, tones and a clock (which we need to head everything up with anyway) - Start up, save-as, start working... it's not a million miles from what you're doing yourself James.

the final flattened MXF look terrible, like a really amateurish deinterlace filter was passed over it, yet we're not deinterlacing at all. Even turning on field processing in the project doesn't help.


Do you mean temporal artefacts (i.e. line tearing or displacement) or spatial artefacts like Chris showed us in a previous post?
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visualfeast

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostThu Mar 03, 2022 9:42 pm

James Hope wrote:I've just fiddled around again with this in 17.4.4. It still appears to be broken to me. Has anyone else had any success?

I've tried all the appropriate tickboxes in various different combinations, and I never get a clean looking interlaced export. Even the preview looks bad.

We're still using our workaround (see previous post), but it shouldn't be necessary.
Care to share a project & footage to test? I’ve not had any issues with XDCAM 422 1080i footage.


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Uli Plank

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostFri Mar 04, 2022 2:08 am

Apart from the issue with cutting on the wrong field I can work with interlaced 1080i25 just fine.
Please post a sample.
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostMon Mar 07, 2022 1:16 am

Matt Quinn wrote:I assume you're working in 1080i HD... 25 frames/50 fields James?

We're actually working in 1080i59.94 (our playout is US-based) and I haven't tried 1080i50, but I assume the issues would be the same.

Matt Quinn wrote:Do you mean temporal artefacts (i.e. line tearing or displacement) or spatial artefacts like Chris showed us in a previous post?


The exported program, as well as what is seen on the viewer at 100%, looks like it's gone through a cheap and nasty deinterlace filter. This happens no matter what field/frame rate settings I have set in the project or the deliver page.

Matt Quinn wrote:Something I found a little odd is how 'easy' it is to inadvertently set up an 'apparently interlaced' project with a 25 frame per second timeline instead of a 50 field per second timeline... You'd think they'd be the same thing but they seem not to be. - Other weirdness includes the default capture/playback setting itself to HD 1080PsF24 - which as far as I'm concerned is an oddball non-standard thing ... And SDI defaulting to 'dual link' - when it's not! - In fact output/monitoring is via is one of BMD's own Decklink SDI 4K cards stubbornly set to 1080i/50 for output.


Selecting "Enable interlace processing" switches it to fields per second instead of frames per second anyway.

Here are some sample screen shots of the problem.

These are the project settings that I assume should work for an interlaced project:

ss1.png
ss1.png (42.54 KiB) Viewed 1818 times


This is what I'm getting in the viewer (and ultimately the export). Note that it's not just the super that's affected, but the whole picture (the super is in the original clip as it came from the control room):

ss2.png
ss2.png (753.51 KiB) Viewed 1818 times


Here's what it's supposed to look like (screenshot taken from the project that used a DR16 project as the basis, though still within DR17):

ss3.png
ss3.png (854.34 KiB) Viewed 1818 times


I've reached the maximum number of attachments, so I'll finish this in the next post.
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostMon Mar 07, 2022 1:16 am

... continued from previous post.

Even if I replicate the settings in the DR16 project in a new project, it looks bad. Here are the settings in the DR16-based project (but within DR17):

ss4.png
ss4.png (44.9 KiB) Viewed 1815 times


Notice that this isn't using "Enable interlace processing". Also, interestingly, the option has a different label, "Enable video field processing". This is still running in DR17! So I'm completely puzzled by this.

Our original footage is ProRes 422. I don't know if that's got anything to do with it.
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Matt Quinn

Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostMon Mar 07, 2022 1:51 am

01:23 here so I'll be brief...

James Hope wrote:The exported program, as well as what is seen on the viewer at 100%, looks like it's gone through a cheap and nasty deinterlace filter. This happens no matter what field/frame rate settings I have set in the project or the deliver page.


Again... I'm struggling to visualise whether you mean 'line tearing' (i.e temporal artefacts) or something impacting on the spatial dimension of the picture... weird lines that shouldn't be there etc. What I'm questioning from your pictures is whether I'm looking at a frame, or a single field... because you do now get that level of 'granularity' - you can go through a piece of video field-by-field; what's it like in motion?

James Hope wrote:Notice that this isn't using "Enable interlace processing". Also, interestingly, the option has a different label, "Enable video field processing". This is still running in DR17! So I'm completely puzzled by this.


Yes, that seems to be a hangover from the earlier version - flicking through our options here I'm not seeing it.

James Hope wrote:The exported program, as well as what is seen on the viewer at 100%Our original footage is ProRes 422. I don't know if that's got anything to do with it.


We often see ProRes 422 - we don't experience an issue with it.

James Hope wrote:The exported program, as well as what is seen on the viewer at 100%


Possibly worth mentioning that I don't take the UI 'monitors' remotely seriously (wish I could get rid of them TBH, they waste UI space) - and make all qualitative assessment via an SDI-connected monitor running at the relative frame rate; in this case 1080i/25frames (or 50 fields if you prefer) - if you're monitoring via the UI or the computer's graphics card; are you actually sure it's broken? - Tried exporting a sample onto a memory stick (in a playable format) and just playing the result on the living-room telly?

One other point... does the refresh/frame rate of the monitor you're assessing the picture on match that of the material you're assessing?
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue Mar 08, 2022 1:58 am

No, it's not temporal. It's a spatial issue that looks like some sort of weird line interpolation.

The UI monitor is somewhat different to the actual exported file, but the exported file looks terrible. Watching it on any monitor, including a consumer TV, it looks bad.

Here's a link to a couple of example clips (in a ZIP file):
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Agi5EH6qaDb9hN5E9d8rC3UDuyEZ5g?e=65f1nU

The clips are:
  • dr16_sample.mxf - This is exported from DR17 using a project that was originally created in DR16. It is what it's supposed to look like.
  • dr17_sample.mxf - This is exported from a DR17 native project. Notice the strange deinterlacing effect. It's very similar to what chrisbrearley had, further up the thread.

Hopefully this make the problem clear.
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chrisbrearley

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue May 09, 2023 3:26 pm

image.png
image.png (445.51 KiB) Viewed 1107 times


2 years on and still no fix. Want to work with fields in Resolve? Don't bother.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue May 09, 2023 5:27 pm

Chris, to me this looks like a deinterlacing mismatch...

Could you upload me an original source sample clip to test some ideas?

My server upload area can be found here
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostTue May 30, 2023 11:12 pm

chrisbrearley wrote:
image.png


2 years on and still no fix. Want to work with fields in Resolve? Don't bother.


Yep. We're still duplicating empty DR16 projects in DR18 to get around this issue.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostWed May 31, 2023 1:16 am

As I already wrote, I can work just fine with interlaced footage when using BM's intended workflow. So, it might be specific to Windows or the GPU.
But hard to tell for sure without a test sample.
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James Hope

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostWed Jun 28, 2023 5:53 am

Uli Plank wrote:But hard to tell for sure without a test sample.


I shared a sample over a year ago! Unfortunately, I've incorrectly assumed recently that it had been looked at and removed it from my OneDrive while making room.

I'm having other serious issues with Resolve at the moment unrelated to this thread, so I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to use it. My workaround for the interlacing issue is fine and I can put up with it, but the other issue, which I'm still trying to find the cause for, might be a deal breaker.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostWed Jun 28, 2023 2:06 pm

James Hope wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:But hard to tell for sure without a test sample.


I shared a sample over a year ago! Unfortunately, I've incorrectly assumed recently that it had been looked at and removed it from my OneDrive while making room.


You shared two examples of your exports but not the source file for investigation.
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Andy Collins

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Re: Interlaced broken in DR17

PostFri Jan 05, 2024 6:04 pm

I think I may be able to shed some light on what's going on as I've been investigating a similar issue in DR 18.6. What I have discovered is that the first field of an interlaced source is ignored when cut into a timeline and field two is then placed where field one should be. Field one from the following frame then becomes field two of the first frame. This shuffling of the fields by one field is what's likely causing the aliasing problems. I have a test file with the fields clearly numbered which shows the problem nicely. Note that you can't trim a clip back to show field one at the start of a clip, it always starts on field two.

In the attached screen grab you can see that field 1 from the source, (13 fields into the clip), ends up as field 2, (14), placed in the field one position in the timeline.

I am happy to send my test clip to anyone who would find it useful.
Attachments
Field Issue.png
Field Issue.png (643.54 KiB) Viewed 74 times

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